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Post by goz on May 26, 2018 2:39:48 GMT
You want rules, I'll give you rules. Please address my arguments, not arguments you believe I should be making. (I think the kids call that a straw man.) I never said prayers could instantaneously and completely solve any medical problem. Beside the point, but I'll mention it anyway, I do not know anyone else, Christian or otherwise, who believes that; nor do I believe any god will instantaneously and completely deliver a million dollars upon a prayer request, nor do I know anyone who believes that either. If there has been an instant replacement of a lost limb along with a bonus large quantity of cash, I have never heard of it yet. The atheist bias against religion has become disturbingly obvious as have the reasons for it. You (plural) are using what a very few crazy "Christians" think is a religion as a definition of all religion. You (singular) just here tried to impose that view of prayer on me. You have no ability to listen because you have decided that some "ruling" authority has made listening unnecessary for you. You keep repeating words like reason, logic and science as though you would know what they mean. I happen to be a perfectly reasonable and scientific person, but you can't see it because of your totally unrealistic expectations of science that I reject. This makes twice atheists have been caught failing to understand evidence. You haven't yet acknowledged that the evidence for relativity is comparable to much of the available evidence for a god. Neither the evidence for relativity nor that evidence for a god are widely available for "repeated" tests, yet you insist that relativity is proven and the existence of god has not. Now we have this. Evidence of the efficacy of OTC pain relievers is no better than the evidence for the efficacy of prayer. Yet you insist prayer is a waste of time without mentioning that OTC pain relievers are exactly as much a waste of time. You insist that medicine is "science" because you need it to "rule" for you. You need it to rule for you because you are incapable of persuasion as I explained here. WOW! This Planet Arlon at his absolute finest! Kruger Dunning effect in all its rampant glory...delusion in ascendance...lack of evidence aplenty ...medicine is not real science butt Christian hospitals are better than secular...you have it all here folks, right in this wonderful post...we even have him accusing atheists of misrepresenting his view as he is not 'a few crazy Christians'...butt best of all despite being a perfectly reasonable and scientific person, he actually rejects science over prayers for some reason.
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Post by Arlon10 on May 26, 2018 15:12:49 GMT
You want rules, I'll give you rules. Please address my arguments, not arguments you believe I should be making. (I think the kids call that a straw man.) I never said prayers could instantaneously and completely solve any medical problem. Beside the point, but I'll mention it anyway, I do not know anyone else, Christian or otherwise, who believes that; nor do I believe any god will instantaneously and completely deliver a million dollars upon a prayer request, nor do I know anyone who believes that either. If there has been an instant replacement of a lost limb along with a bonus large quantity of cash, I have never heard of it yet. The atheist bias against religion has become disturbingly obvious as have the reasons for it. You (plural) are using what a very few crazy "Christians" think is a religion as a definition of all religion. You (singular) just here tried to impose that view of prayer on me. You have no ability to listen because you have decided that some "ruling" authority has made listening unnecessary for you. You keep repeating words like reason, logic and science as though you would know what they mean. I happen to be a perfectly reasonable and scientific person, but you can't see it because of your totally unrealistic expectations of science that I reject. This makes twice atheists have been caught failing to understand evidence. You haven't yet acknowledged that the evidence for relativity is comparable to much of the available evidence for a god. Neither the evidence for relativity nor that evidence for a god are widely available for "repeated" tests, yet you insist that relativity is proven and the existence of god has not. Now we have this. Evidence of the efficacy of OTC pain relievers is no better than the evidence for the efficacy of prayer. Yet you insist prayer is a waste of time without mentioning that OTC pain relievers are exactly as much a waste of time. You insist that medicine is "science" because you need it to "rule" for you. You need it to rule for you because you are incapable of persuasion as I explained here. WOW! This Planet Arlon at his absolute finest! Kruger Dunning effect in all its rampant glory...delusion in ascendance...lack of evidence aplenty ...medicine is not real science butt Christian hospitals are better than secular...you have it all here folks, right in this wonderful post...we even have him accusing atheists of misrepresenting his view as he is not 'a few crazy Christians'...butt best of all despite being a perfectly reasonable and scientific person, he actually rejects science over prayers for some reason. I feel sorry for all you who believe things simply because you were told them. I feel especially sorry for the atheists since they do not realize that theirs is merely belief. They think they used science to arrive at their opinions. They rather obviously did not. Now see that one of them is shocked that I said OTC pain relievers were no better than prayer. Where is her evidence? I see not one scrap. The other one told me, But it is your claim Arlon: so it is up to you to show me the data. So their "science" can conveniently avoid ever having to be proved, but my claims will be wrong even when I say science fails at some point. It seems to me that if you feel science does not fail at that point it would be on you to show that science.
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Eλευθερί
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Post by Eλευθερί on May 26, 2018 17:03:52 GMT
Arlon10 I trust that you prayerful folk have been praying that the nonbelievers go away. Why hasn't it worked?
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Post by goz on May 26, 2018 21:13:17 GMT
WOW! This Planet Arlon at his absolute finest! Kruger Dunning effect in all its rampant glory...delusion in ascendance...lack of evidence aplenty ...medicine is not real science butt Christian hospitals are better than secular...you have it all here folks, right in this wonderful post...we even have him accusing atheists of misrepresenting his view as he is not 'a few crazy Christians'...butt best of all despite being a perfectly reasonable and scientific person, he actually rejects science over prayers for some reason. I feel sorry for all you who believe things simply because you were told them. I feel especially sorry for the atheists since they do not realize that theirs is merely belief. They think they used science to arrive at their opinions. They rather obviously did not. Now see that one of them is shocked that I said OTC pain relievers were no better than prayer. Where is her evidence? I see not one scrap. The other one told me, But it is your claim Arlon: so it is up to you to show me the data. So their "science" can conveniently avoid ever having to be proved, but my claims will be wrong even when I say science fails at some point. It seems to me that if you feel science does not fail at that point it would be on you to show that science. I won't get off your lawn. I will point out to you where you are mistaken. Pot/kettle you have been 'told' or more likely brainwashed about God and religion since birth. I could have sworn we atheists have made it quite clear that atheism is a 'lack of belief'. I cannot speak for all atheists (unlike you) however my opinions on everything are based on the best evidence in front of me. I mean this is the broadest terms e.g. If I look out the window and see rain, then it is raining. ALSO if I have a headache and want relief for it I take over the counter pain medication, because it has been proven in countless clinical trials to have been effective and further ongoing scientific testing is required to perfect the accurate use of drugs and minimise side effects. cen.acs.org/articles/92/i29/Does-Acetaminophen-Work-Researchers-Still.htmlOK Planet Arlon, I can easily show scientific evidence for the efficacy and effectiveness of OTCPK because there has been extensive scientific research to develop these drugs,(see reference) can you show ANY scientific evidence of prayer curing pain? I have to say that your knowledge of science is pathetic in its paucity and limited scope, and in fact its actual foundations. If I were you I would stick to prayer if you are in pain and were I to attempt to show you the chemistry involved in pain relief which is complicated and even now under complex scientific research, you wouldn't have a clue because you are a fusty ante-deluvian old curmudgeon.
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Post by Arlon10 on May 27, 2018 11:55:24 GMT
Congratulations, you found something on the internet. Your mother will be proud. Does it actually support any of your arguments? I would have thought even you could find something, however reputable or not, on the internet to support your arguments.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2018 15:34:43 GMT
A Christian woman tells reporters that what her community that has just experienced a school shooting massacre needs is everyone's prayers. She apparently believes that if enough people pray, God will hear the prayers and be moved by them to ease the suffering of those who have been affected by the shooting. But is this logical? If God decides the fates of the lives of those who have been affected by the shooting, and the prayers are intended to nudge God in a certain direction, how do these prayers supposedly work? If God is omniscient and God always does what is morally right, what difference does it make whether people pray or do not pray? Even if all people in the world were to pray that God do something that is wrong, God, being all-good, would not do it, so the prayers would have no intended effect. And God, being omniscient, already knows what is in people's hearts, whether they pray or not. So, again, the prayers would have no intended effect. I think you're over analyzing what she said too literally as well as maybe other people who have also used the same expression of needing prayers during difficult times. People typically say that they're in need of prayers during a certain time in their lives or an event that they have no control over, so the notion of praying for this instance is mainly about finding a stronger sense of hope for themselves and support from others around them. Therefore psychologically speaking prayers do have an effect.
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Post by goz on May 27, 2018 20:36:54 GMT
Congratulations, you found something on the internet. Your mother will be proud. Does it actually support any of your arguments? I would have thought even you could find something, however reputable or not, on the internet to support your arguments. Thankyou. It wasn't all that hard since there is and has been a huge volume of research done on painkillers and all scientific papers are peer reviewed and published on the internet these days. Perhaps you have noticed? Found any such research on the efficacy of prayer yet in pain control? To be fair there is probably something on the placebo effect and other psychological aspects which Christians such as yourself would attribute to prayer! It could still not support your claim that prayer is more effective in pain relief than the drugs mentioned in the article that I posted.
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Post by Eλευθερί on May 27, 2018 22:50:57 GMT
I think you're over analyzing what she said too literally as well as maybe other people who have also used the same expression of needing prayers during difficult times. People typically say that they're in need of prayers during a certain time in their lives or an event that they have no control over, so the notion of praying for this instance is mainly about finding a stronger sense of hope for themselves and support from others around them. Therefore psychologically speaking prayers do have an effect.  That may be true for many people, but when most religious people are asking for prayers in difficult times, they do mean that they believe God may hear the pleas and it may affect what happens as a result. It's not just a pro forma expression of hoping things will get better and seeking support of others without regard to God.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on May 27, 2018 23:49:46 GMT
Most of the time I just think "it just makes people feel better - so no real harm done" or if someone says they'll pray for me I take that as the equivalent of "I'm thinking of you" and again - no real harm. But. When something bad happens and their "solution" is that we should all just pray that annoys me. Mass shooting? Everyone pray! Flooding? Everyone pray! No. Do something about it instead. Give them physical help. Change the law. Do something! Don't just mumble some words and then think you've actually achieved anything. Because guess what? Praying has never actually changed any big picture issue in the world. Ever. ^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^
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Post by Arlon10 on May 28, 2018 1:02:50 GMT
... To be fair there is probably something on the placebo effect and other psychological aspects ... IKR, and I have said so many times. What's wrong with that? I still think it is at least possible there is more to it than that though. Did you know you can't be a "scientist" when you let your bias influence your work? You need to be more even minded, like I am. OTC pain relievers and prayers are fraught with much the same problems in measuring their effects, which I already discussed in detail. I am able to see that, why aren't you? Now do you see why hospitals with religiously affiliated staff are better? No bias to get in the way of the real science or elevate what is less than science.
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Post by goz on May 28, 2018 1:50:49 GMT
... To be fair there is probably something on the placebo effect and other psychological aspects ... IKR, and I have said so many times. What's wrong with that? I still think it is at least possible there is more to it than that though. Did you know you can't be a "scientist" when you let your bias influence your work? You need to be more even minded, like I am. OTC pain relievers and prayers are fraught with much the same problems in measuring their effects, which I already discussed in detail. I am able to see that, why aren't you? Now do you see why hospitals with religiously affiliated staff are better? No bias to get in the way of the real science or elevate what is less than science. Rubbish. OTC pain killers have scientific authenticity on a vast scale and prayers simply... do not.
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Post by Arlon10 on May 28, 2018 2:08:35 GMT
IKR, and I have said so many times. What's wrong with that? I still think it is at least possible there is more to it than that though. Did you know you can't be a "scientist" when you let your bias influence your work? You need to be more even minded, like I am. OTC pain relievers and prayers are fraught with much the same problems in measuring their effects, which I already discussed in detail. I am able to see that, why aren't you? Now do you see why hospitals with religiously affiliated staff are better? No bias to get in the way of the real science or elevate what is less than science. Rubbish. OTC pain killers have scientific authenticity on a vast scale and prayers simply... do not. You'd seem a lot less obstinate if you would compose yourself.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2018 14:29:28 GMT
I think you're over analyzing what she said too literally as well as maybe other people who have also used the same expression of needing prayers during difficult times. People typically say that they're in need of prayers during a certain time in their lives or an event that they have no control over, so the notion of praying for this instance is mainly about finding a stronger sense of hope for themselves and support from others around them. Therefore psychologically speaking prayers do have an effect. That may be true for many people, but when most religious people are asking for prayers in difficult times, they do mean that they believe God may hear the pleas and it may affect what happens as a result. It's not just a pro forma expression of hoping things will get better and seeking support of others without regard to God. I agree, but there's still a psychological purpose in praying even when people believe God can hear them. Whether God actually hears prayers or not or affects what happens is not what gives the prayers purpose, but the prayers give a psychological purpose because of those people believing that God is helping them. That sense of hope and support I think naturally come along with that especially when you're asking others to pray with you. Whether true or not about an actual God actually listening and helping through prayers is not the question to ask from an outsider's point of view when trying to find the purpose of someone else praying. It's the positive effect from people actually believing in it is what is more important and what already gives its purpose. I guess I can best compare to what I'm trying to say as a placebo effect where their mentality of getting better is what helped them and not the actual pill. I wouldn't say the pill was useless though because it had its purpose in actually making them believe something that positively affected them. From an outsider's point of view it's easier to point out how they technically don't need the pill and ask what the logical purpose behind taking it is, but what is more important is that it actually helped them regardless of it objectively being the real source of their cure or not. When it comes to praying there is no way of knowing if there is an objective purpose like God behind it, but it's important to understand that believing in that concept of an objective purpose for some people actually helps them. It doesn't need to be logically explained.
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Post by Eλευθερί on May 28, 2018 20:08:03 GMT
monicah I agree completely that praying serves psychological and social purposes, even if there is no god, or--if there IS a god--even if the god does not hear them or is not persuaded to do anything different in response to them. But I was not asking about those sorts of effects of praying. I was asking specifically about the logic behind praying in order to ask God to do something. If praying potentially does affect what God does, then religious people might have a logical basis for arguing that lack of praying, or failure to pray in a certain particular way, could be a reason for undesirable events occurring that might have been prevented had the proper prayers been offered. Of course, the next step, in some minds, for such belief would be that there is an obligation for people to pray (and to pray in the prescribed way) for the wellbeing of the community/society. And from there, it's not too hard to slide into arguing that people must be required to pray (and to pray in the prescribed way) to ensure the wellbeing of society.
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Post by Eλευθερί on May 28, 2018 20:24:16 GMT
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Post by goz on May 28, 2018 23:14:23 GMT
Rubbish. OTC pain killers have scientific authenticity on a vast scale and prayers simply... do not. You'd seem a lot less obstinate if you would compose yourself. ...and you would seem slightly less Dunning Kruger if you educated yourself!
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 7:35:57 GMT
monicah I agree completely that praying serves psychological and social purposes, even if there is no god, or--if there IS a god--even if the god does not hear them or is not persuaded to do anything different in response to them. But I was not asking about those sorts of effects of praying. I was asking specifically about the logic behind praying in order to ask God to do something.
If praying potentially does affect what God does, then religious people might have a logical basis for arguing that lack of praying, or failure to pray in a certain particular way, could be a reason for undesirable events occurring that might have been prevented had the proper prayers been offered. Of course, the next step, in some minds, for such belief would be that there is an obligation for people to pray (and to pray in the prescribed way) for the wellbeing of the community/society. And from there, it's not too hard to slide into arguing that people must be required to pray (and to pray in the prescribed way) to ensure the wellbeing of society. Read what I said here: "When it comes to praying there is no way of knowing if there is an objective purpose like God behind it, but it's important to understand that believing in that concept of an objective purpose for some people actually helps them. It doesn't need to be logically explained." I was trying to point out how asking for a logical explanation to how God answers prayers already shows you don't understand the purpose behind praying and it's not the question to ask if you want to understand why people do it. If you were only asking that question as a way of pointing out how there is in fact no logical basis behind believing God actually listens to prayers then I think you're completely right. But if you're trying to actually find a logical explanation in that question than you're never going to find one because logic is not why people do it. Some people might claim they are using logic behind why they believe God can hear them but they can never actually prove that it is, and I think these are the type of people that need this fact pointed out to them. But like I said and you might already agree that it doesn't mean that prayer has no purpose. There are people who say there isn't any purpose to praying and I disagree for the reasons I gave.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on May 29, 2018 12:29:44 GMT
You want rules, I'll give you rules. Please address my arguments, not arguments you believe I should be making. (I think the kids call that a straw man.) I never said prayers could instantaneously and completely solve any medical problem. I do not know anyone else, Christian or otherwise, who believes that To which the immediate question is 'why not'? Is it not a little too convenient that only some types of cures, or intercession, are to expected? To explain this away, especially where a the deity concerned supposedly has unlimited power, always will come down to special pleading. The Bible certainly puts no cap on what might be expected, ["John 15:7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you." "Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." etc,] and there is no good reason not to take your Christ, er God, at his word. The only good reason you have is to cover your embarrassment. Just lost limbs, the original example, here will do. But .. QED and I thank you. Perhaps you would better off to address your belief's problems by asking why no one has ever heard of a case. Hey! I think I know the answer... And here, unfortunately you seem a bit hysterical. I impose nothing. I simply ask, quote reasonably, why we never see the miracle of arms and legs growing back. It would be more crazy, or at least illogical, of believers to argue that miracles are not universal in their possibility but necessarily always selective in the occasion, don't you think? I'm listening now, Arlon as to why arms and legs never grown back after prayer? Or ears, fingers? Or noses? Go on, tell me.... Thank for the usual non-sequitur. But that does not really address this specific topic, you are just going off on a detour again. Where's the evidence for the miraculous cure of amputees then through the power of prayer then, Arlon? Where's the positive evidence for the deliberate supernatural? Do you have any? LOL You see it's like this, Arlon, as patiently explained before: the evidence for modern physics and cosmology has been gained through, yes, repeated testing, observation, and the various fulfilment of theoretical predictions (such as gravity ripples in space); this while science is, yes, always learning and updating itself the overwhelming impression is that knowledge is on the right track. (You have not suggested yet any alternative to Einsteins theory btw, thus making your fortune!) Conversely, the evidence for God - any god in fact - does not exist outside of the claims of scripture and credulity. When, just in case, I asked recently for some positive evidence that you might be able to provide, at least away from your usual God-of-the-Gaps type argument, then none was forthcoming, only the usual unsubstantiated opinions and excuses. I wonder why. You can see how a reader might find that continued failure disappointing, especially when one remembers how it happens with you over and over in threads here. But this is new, and while another diversion is one worth investigating. One well established over the counter pain reliever is asprin. Another is paracetemol. A third is acetaminophen. Are you seriously suggesting that such items have no effect? If so, please offer a substantiating link to research showing this, let alone any suggesting that one is better off just with the power of prayer. No, I don't expect you will either. What a curious fellow you are. Well, persuade me then. Show some substantiation and evidence for all these opinions of yours. A healed amputee would probably be more likely, I think.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on May 29, 2018 12:35:15 GMT
I feel sorry for all you who believe things simply because you were told them. Like those who believe in scripture stories relating to their religion without any evidence? Just show some substantiation Arlon, and stop with just more and more opinions, which grow steadily more eccentric. What you say immediately above does not even make logical sense.
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