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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 19, 2017 12:36:27 GMT
As CoolJGS said, why do you think the RC Church is uniquely not allowed to choose its own leaders? I don't think this is unique to the RC church I'm just using them as an example. But with the RC they don't claim that it's a group of old men just selecting their leader - oh no - their leadership process involves divine inspiration. If one of the largest and oldest religions on the planet ticks all the boxes that define a cult then surely all religions are cults? That's kinda incorrect. Yes, there is likely prayers and whatnot since it is religious, but details regarding the selection make it pretty obvious that it's a normal run of the mill selection process with very little difference from a company looking for a CEO...Unless you have details of what divine inspiration means for the selection. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 19, 2017 14:07:03 GMT
Of course it's not. It's simple terms and conditions and it's silly to pretend that there is some kind of torture at work for people being given the OK to do what they want to outside of the rules of their religion. They are literally just becoming free like you so it's a good thing. I'm not focusing on people necessarily wanting to leave all religion, but even just wanting to switch from one religion to another religion. You're dealing with people who have been programmed by cults to really fear these punishments so bandying them around is a real threat to them. If they were willing to let people leave they wouldn't feel the need to threaten them. The whole "ex-communication" thing is specifically designed as a threat - it serves no other purpose. It's not a cult and people are perfectly capable of leaving a church preferably in writing. No one is programmed into the religion they want because the human psyche is too glitchy and inundated with other stuff to hold that kind of hacker programming and especially not in the Catholic Church. Maybe 500 years ago, but I doubt it happened even then. People are gonna do what they are gonna do. Are there some kooks out there that may think they are slaves to the church? Of course, just like there are kooks out there literally able to do anything they want and yet still think the church is out to persecuted them. Is that irrationality the norm? Of course not. |
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Post by deviates on Mar 19, 2017 21:40:38 GMT
Sociologically speaking, a cult is a type of religion. The most commonly used typology would consist of churches, denominations, sects and cults though Stark and Bainbridge did give a more detailed breakdown of types of cults.
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Post by thorshairspray on Mar 19, 2017 21:47:16 GMT
REally? You wouldn't consider heaven and hell, and sin and redemption as psychological coercion? Doesn't it? The Pope is always right and I don't believe his descisions are made by popular mandate. No, but he is appointed by a select cabal from within their own ranks. Doesn't it? Indulgences for money? Nazi gold? Really? Because the Catholic Church should not have wealth. That it is worth billions is a scandal. Only a weak person would be manipulated by heaven, hell and sin and redemption and your understanding of how these things work seems very limited. The Pope's decisions are bindinf only one thise who are already adherents. Indulgences have not existed for around 500 years, and the Nazi Gold story is a lie. The Catholic church uses its wealth to support its work - schools, hospitals, missions etc. Oh, well if it only affects weak people, thats okay then.....Tell us exactly how these mentally weak people would avoid a cult? Yes....Which differs from a Cult how? Are you saying that no adherents of a cult have to follow its rules? They exist now. Really? So? It is still worth billions. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 19, 2017 21:59:38 GMT
Sociologically speaking, a cult is a type of religion. The most commonly used typology would consist of churches, denominations, sects and cults though Stark and Bainbridge did give a more detailed breakdown of types of cults. This is correct but a cult, as a type, is a subset of religion and not the entirety which is usually what these types of threads imply. |
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Mar 19, 2017 22:42:19 GMT
Telling an indoctrinated person that if they leave they/stop following your rules they will be excommunicated and face an eternity in hell. That doesn't sound like a specific enough threat to you? You're actually asking me a leading question based on some random factoid that you are assuming I automatically agree with, without even bothering to make an argument for it? How does that normally work out for you? Anyway, why would the Catholic Church excommunicate somebody for leaving it? That would be a bit pointless, no? I think you've been taking lessons from the book of " How to argue against somebody without actually bothering to address any of their arguments". You weren't a young earth creationist at some point, were you? They do this kind of thing all the time. So I assume you agree that all my other points are fine then if this is the only one you're picking up on? But as others (as well as myself) have been saying - not everyone is as strong willed as others. If they've been a member of a religion for a long time the threats of hell (or any other spiritual punishments) may hold a lot of sway with them. And not just for renouncing God, but just for going to a different religion. One of your definitions of a cult was that it uses coercion to control it's members, which is exactly what many mainstream religions do - why else would a religion feel the need to threaten people that want to leave them? |
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Post by thorshairspray on Mar 19, 2017 23:19:37 GMT
You're actually asking me a leading question based on some random factoid that you are assuming I automatically agree with, without even bothering to make an argument for it? How does that normally work out for you? Anyway, why would the Catholic Church excommunicate somebody for leaving it? That would be a bit pointless, no? I think you've been taking lessons from the book of " How to argue against somebody without actually bothering to address any of their arguments". You weren't a young earth creationist at some point, were you? They do this kind of thing all the time. So I assume you agree that all my other points are fine then if this is the only one you're picking up on? But as others (as well as myself) have been saying - not everyone is as strong willed as others. If they've been a member of a religion for a long time the threats of hell (or any other spiritual punishments) may hold a lot of sway with them. And not just for renouncing God, but just for going to a different religion. One of your definitions of a cult was that it uses coercion to control it's members, which is exactly what many mainstream religions do - why else would a religion feel the need to threaten people that want to leave them? In many Islamic countries, Apostasy is illegal. |
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Mar 19, 2017 23:26:52 GMT
So I assume you agree that all my other points are fine then if this is the only one you're picking up on? But as others (as well as myself) have been saying - not everyone is as strong willed as others. If they've been a member of a religion for a long time the threats of hell (or any other spiritual punishments) may hold a lot of sway with them. And not just for renouncing God, but just for going to a different religion. One of your definitions of a cult was that it uses coercion to control it's members, which is exactly what many mainstream religions do - why else would a religion feel the need to threaten people that want to leave them? In many Islamic countries, Apostasy is illegal. Getting this lot to agree that Islam is a cult would be too easy. Getting them to see that Christianity is also a cult is the challenge... Now if any of them suddenly came to the defence of Islam that would be a surprise! |
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Post by thorshairspray on Mar 19, 2017 23:30:28 GMT
In many Islamic countries, Apostasy is illegal. Getting this lot to agree that Islam is a cult would be too easy. Getting them to see that Christianity is also a cult is the challenge... Now if any of them suddenly came to the defence of Islam that would be a surprise! Depends. The Christians will probably say Islam is a cult, the atheists won't. |
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Mar 19, 2017 23:32:39 GMT
Getting this lot to agree that Islam is a cult would be too easy. Getting them to see that Christianity is also a cult is the challenge... Now if any of them suddenly came to the defence of Islam that would be a surprise! Depends. The Christians will probably say Islam is a cult, the atheists won't. Well as an atheist I'm happy to say that I can't really see any difference between "cult" and "religion" except some imaginary veneer or respectability. So they're all the same classification to me. |
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Post by thorshairspray on Mar 19, 2017 23:45:36 GMT
Depends. The Christians will probably say Islam is a cult, the atheists won't. Well as an atheist I'm happy to say that I can't really see any difference between "cult" and "religion" except some imaginary veneer or respectability. So they're all the same classification to me. Same here. The only difference I can see is that a religion is socially acceptable and a cult isn't. |
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Post by awhina on Mar 19, 2017 23:48:38 GMT
Only a weak person would be manipulated by heaven, hell and sin and redemption and your understanding of how these things work seems very limited. The Pope's decisions are bindinf only one thise who are already adherents. Indulgences have not existed for around 500 years, and the Nazi Gold story is a lie. The Catholic church uses its wealth to support its work - schools, hospitals, missions etc. Oh, well if it only affects weak people, thats okay then.....Tell us exactly how these mentally weak people would avoid a cult? Yes....Which differs from a Cult how? Are you saying that no adherents of a cult have to follow its rules? They exist now. Really? So? It is still oworth billions. You are lying again. Indulgences do not exist now. I don't care about the church being worth billions - so is the NZ Ministry of Health. Guess what? They spend their billions on health care, just as the RC Church spends its billions on health, education and welfare. |
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Post by awhina on Mar 19, 2017 23:51:57 GMT
In many Islamic countries, Apostasy is illegal. Getting this lot to agree that Islam is a cult would be too easy. Getting them to see that Christianity is also a cult is the challenge... Now if any of them suddenly came to the defence of Islam that would be a surprise! He lies again! Proggy and supes constantly abuse me for defending Islam. Goodness knows what you're going to be like as an adult! |
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Post by tickingmask on Mar 19, 2017 23:59:02 GMT
So I assume you agree that all my other points are fine then if this is the only one you're picking up on? You assume incorrectly. The first part of your reply was so inane that I stopped reading at that point. Look, if you want to wallow around in your dislike of religion enough not to bother doing even the most basic research on what a cult is or on what 'psychological coercion' actually entails, then knock yourself out. I don't care how wilfully ignorant and closed-minded you want to make yourself sound, but I sincerely hope you never have a loved one who gets indoctrinated - and I mean really indoctrinated, not just your wishy-washy version of indoctrinated - into a cult. If that ever did happen, you'd be able to tell the difference, believe me. Oh and for what it's worth, Islam isn't a cult either. |
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Mar 20, 2017 0:01:46 GMT
Oh, well if it only affects weak people, thats okay then.....Tell us exactly how these mentally weak people would avoid a cult? Yes....Which differs from a Cult how? Are you saying that no adherents of a cult have to follow its rules? They exist now. Really? So? It is still oworth billions. You are lying again. Indulgences do not exist now. I don't care about the church being worth billions - so is the NZ Ministry of Health. Guess what? They spend their billions on health care, just as the RC Church spends its billions on health, education and welfare. Looks like you're wrong: www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/nyregion/10indulgence.html?ref=usThey're not quite the same as they were in the middle ages, but they are Indulgences... And whilst the NHS spends money on health care it's goal is to try to spend as much as possible on healthcare. When religion spends money on healthcare, it's goal is to be seen to be doing good to encourage people to donate more money to them so they can continue to live well and not have to get proper jobs. |
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Post by flasuss on Mar 20, 2017 2:20:28 GMT
A religion is a cult that became very successful.
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Post by progressiveelement on Mar 20, 2017 2:24:07 GMT
Getting this lot to agree that Islam is a cult would be too easy. Getting them to see that Christianity is also a cult is the challenge... Now if any of them suddenly came to the defence of Islam that would be a surprise! He lies again! Proggy and supes constantly abuse me for defending Islam. Goodness knows what you're going to be like as an adult! My name is Stringfellow! |
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Post by thorshairspray on Mar 20, 2017 4:09:59 GMT
Oh, well if it only affects weak people, thats okay then.....Tell us exactly how these mentally weak people would avoid a cult? Yes....Which differs from a Cult how? Are you saying that no adherents of a cult have to follow its rules? They exist now. Really? So? It is still oworth billions. You are lying again. Indulgences do not exist now. I don't care about the church being worth billions - so is the NZ Ministry of Health. Guess what? They spend their billions on health care, just as the RC Church spends its billions on health, education and welfare. They do indeed exist. And the point is that the Church DOESN'T spend it's billions on the poor, as it should. |
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Post by awhina on Mar 20, 2017 7:14:22 GMT
You are lying again. Indulgences do not exist now. I don't care about the church being worth billions - so is the NZ Ministry of Health. Guess what? They spend their billions on health care, just as the RC Church spends its billions on health, education and welfare. Looks like you're wrong: www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/nyregion/10indulgence.html?ref=usThey're not quite the same as they were in the middle ages, but they are Indulgences... And whilst the NHS spends money on health care it's goal is to try to spend as much as possible on healthcare. When religion spends money on healthcare, it's goal is to be seen to be doing good to encourage people to donate more money to them so they can continue to live well and not have to get proper jobs. So the "indulgences" in your article are not remotely the same thing. Your comment about the church spending on health is a crazy Tory Col Blimp piece of deliberate nonsense. So according to you, the RC Church runs hospitals, schools and rest homes so that the poor can be lazy? Incredible. |
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Post by awhina on Mar 20, 2017 7:15:07 GMT
You are lying again. Indulgences do not exist now. I don't care about the church being worth billions - so is the NZ Ministry of Health. Guess what? They spend their billions on health care, just as the RC Church spends its billions on health, education and welfare. Looks like you're wrong: www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/nyregion/10indulgence.html?ref=usThey're not quite the same as they were in the middle ages, but they are Indulgences... And whilst the NHS spends money on health care it's goal is to try to spend as much as possible on healthcare. When religion spends money on healthcare, it's goal is to be seen to be doing good to encourage people to donate more money to them so they can continue to live well and not have to get proper jobs. So the "indulgences" in your article are not remotely the same thing. Your comment about the church spending on health is a crazy Tory Col Blimp piece of deliberate nonsense. So according to you, the RC Church runs hospitals, schools and rest homes so that the poor can be lazy? Incredible. |
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