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Post by No Morpho, Only Bánh mì on Dec 1, 2018 2:48:35 GMT
I remember we mentioned him, but I don’t know what he looks like! Is it, um, racist to say that all the Mon Calamari look alike? I mean, I don't think he looks anything like Ackbar. But that's just me. He’s got some more Rugor Nass to him.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Dec 1, 2018 2:48:48 GMT
I think the Cushing FX are very impressive in a couple of shots I watched (where he was partially in shadow). Could I have believed it was him or his cousin in some archival footage?--maybe---but it was completely RUINED by the voice. Nothing like him. And they used someone taller than him for the part. If they are going to try to do a convincing fake they really should go all out. It's interesting though-for Revenge of the Sith they used makeup on an actor (I missed him) however they did two different makeup tests. That first was vastly superior. The makeup artist said Christopher Lee visited when he was showing someone the second makeup but Lee didn't make any comment. But if you go back even further, in 1974's Madhouse, Vincent Price puts on "Peter Cushing makeup" at the end. It's a weird effect because it looks halfway like him and halfway like Price.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Dec 1, 2018 2:52:29 GMT
I also feel this is the only Disney SW that you could argue really feels like it occurs in the same universe as the one Lucas created. (You could also credibly argue the opposite, in my view, as well. But it's still better than Solo and a hyperspace jump ahead of the so-called "ST" in terms of authenticity.)
ETA: also, how badass are the two Guardians? I like them more every time I watch it.
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Post by Nalkarj on Dec 1, 2018 2:53:29 GMT
R2 and C3PO, for really no reason, but, hey, they’re in it!
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Dec 1, 2018 2:54:02 GMT
R2 and C3PO, for really no reason, but, hey, they’re in it! Some of the cameos are so random and forced. That's one of them.
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Post by Nalkarj on Dec 1, 2018 2:55:16 GMT
I think the Cushing FX are very impressive in a couple of shots I watched (where he was partially in shadow). Could I have believed it was him or his cousin in some archival footage?--maybe—but it was completely RUINED by the voice. Nothing like him. And they used someone taller than him for the part. If they are going to try to do a convincing fake they really should go all out. It’s interesting though-for Revenge of the Sith they used makeup on an actor (I missed him) however they did two different makeup tests. That first was vastly superior. The makeup artist said Christopher Lee visited when he was showing someone the second makeup but Lee didn’t make any comment. But if you go back even further, in 1974’s Madhouse, Vincent Price puts on “Peter Cushing makeup” at the end. It’s a weird effect because it looks halfway like him and halfway like Price. I was interested in reading your opinion on the special effects because I know you’re a Cushing fan too. I pretty much thought the same thing–I could almost believe it when he’s in shadow, but when they did this one close-up I could immediately tell it was a (creepy!) computer duplicate. And you’re right about the voice (and the height). I think I’d be able to do a better Cushing impression! And no patented Peter Cushing finger! That’s unforgivable. They used the second make-up test for Sith? As much as I love Cushing, I’d be fine with recasting the part in future movies; I’d prefer that over a CGI clone.
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Post by Nalkarj on Dec 1, 2018 2:57:41 GMT
I also feel this is the only Disney SW that you could argue really feels like it occurs in the same universe as the one Lucas created. (You could also credibly argue the opposite, in my view, as well. But it’s still better than Solo and a hyperspace jump ahead of the so-called “ST” in terms of authenticity.) ETA: also, how badass are the two Guardians? I like them more every time I watch it. It’s interesting, there’s about half of it that I could definitely see in the Lucas universe and half of it that feels “modern, grittier, edgier.” The Guardians are the monks? I liked them well enough, but I feel like I’ve seen characters like them in a million other modern blockbusters.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Dec 1, 2018 2:58:30 GMT
I think the Cushing FX are very impressive in a couple of shots I watched (where he was partially in shadow). Could I have believed it was him or his cousin in some archival footage?--maybe—but it was completely RUINED by the voice. Nothing like him. And they used someone taller than him for the part. If they are going to try to do a convincing fake they really should go all out. It’s interesting though-for Revenge of the Sith they used makeup on an actor (I missed him) however they did two different makeup tests. That first was vastly superior. The makeup artist said Christopher Lee visited when he was showing someone the second makeup but Lee didn’t make any comment. But if you go back even further, in 1974’s Madhouse, Vincent Price puts on “Peter Cushing makeup” at the end. It’s a weird effect because it looks halfway like him and halfway like Price. I was interested in reading your opinion on the special effects because I know you’re a Cushing fan too. I pretty much thought the same thing–I could almost believe it when he’s in shadow, but when they did this one close-up I could immediately tell it was a (creepy!) computer duplicate. And you’re right about the voice (and the height). I think I’d be able to do a better Cushing impression! And no patented Peter Cushing finger! That’s unforgivable. They used the second make-up test for Sith? As much as I love Cushing, I’d be fine with recasting the part in future movies; I’d prefer that over a CGI clone. Can't imagine how many future flicks would feature that character, but it's possible.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Dec 1, 2018 2:59:47 GMT
I also feel this is the only Disney SW that you could argue really feels like it occurs in the same universe as the one Lucas created. (You could also credibly argue the opposite, in my view, as well. But it’s still better than Solo and a hyperspace jump ahead of the so-called “ST” in terms of authenticity.) ETA: also, how badass are the two Guardians? I like them more every time I watch it. It’s interesting, there’s about half of it that I could definitely see in the Lucas universe and half of it that feels “modern, grittier, edgier.” The Guardians are the monks? I liked them well enough, but I feel like I’ve seen characters like them in a million other modern blockbusters. Interesting. Would you go so far as to call their parts stereotypes? What about their performances? I thought the one dude who said less was more effective in his role than the guy who repeated the mantra. ETA: the "half-Lucas, half not" remark is really, really astute. I kind of spoke around the idea (with the credible arguments either way), but this enunciates the issue much more precisely: there's moments where they nail it and others where they overreach.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Dec 1, 2018 3:08:58 GMT
I was interested in reading your opinion on the special effects because I know you’re a Cushing fan too. I pretty much thought the same thing–I could almost believe it when he’s in shadow, but when they did this one close-up I could immediately tell it was a (creepy!) computer duplicate. And you’re right about the voice (and the height). I think I’d be able to do a better Cushing impression! And no patented Peter Cushing finger! That’s unforgivable. They used the second make-up test for Sith? As much as I love Cushing, I’d be fine with recasting the part in future movies; I’d prefer that over a CGI clone. The makeup guy was on Facebook some time back (there are a few Peter Cushing pages--I wonder how many Trevor Howard ones there are..). He showed the makeup tests he did.
But I forgot why he said they used the second. Everyone agreed the first test was closer.
I think it will be possible (maybe even now) to take old footage and extrapolate performance ticks from it to get very convincing fake-at least under the right conditions. DeepFakes shows that potential.
They can even take sound and make up new words in the person's voice. Disney is really really bad at FX innovations. If James Cameron had wanted to do it, you can bet it would be very good.
I went to the movie theater just to see the fake Arnie in Terminator Genysis (I thought Emilia Clarke seemed too young-some say her acting is bad but I was distracted by her high school age appearance so didn't notice that--I will have to get assessments of her part in SOLO) and it was almost convincing to me especially one where they show him walking towards the time machine-I would have believed it archival footage if i hadn't known. But his voice sounded old, and they went into video game mode with the action as soon as the older Arnie shows up. Not to mention, not using a Bill Paxton lookalike detracted as well.
Whether it is full cg or some kind of makeup combo, I am sure a totally believable fake is possible. If I made a film I would stick a famous old actor in the background of a shot and see if anyone catches it!
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Post by Nalkarj on Dec 1, 2018 3:11:02 GMT
It’s interesting, there’s about half of it that I could definitely see in the Lucas universe and half of it that feels “modern, grittier, edgier.” The Guardians are the monks? I liked them well enough, but I feel like I’ve seen characters like them in a million other modern blockbusters. Interesting. Would you go so far as to call their parts stereotypes? What about their performances? I thought the one dude who said less was more effective in his role than the guy who repeated the mantra. ETA: the “half-Lucas, half not” remark is really, really astute. I kind of spoke around the idea (with the credible arguments either way), but this enunciates the issue much more precisely: there’s moments where they nail it and others where they overreach. Racial stereotypes? No, I wouldn’t say that, but I just felt I’ve seen things like that show Avatar (of which I wasn’t really a fan) that have done things like this. Thanks. One thing that does seem like Lucas is this climbing-up-the-tower climax, which I really like–while the scenes that are currently being cut to, the war scenes, aren’t shot at all the way Lucas (and Kershner and Marquand) shot similar sequences.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Dec 1, 2018 3:12:09 GMT
Gary Kurtz liked Rogue 1. He did an interview for a SW podcast and made favorable remarks. He felt it captured the ambience of the set design of the first film.
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Post by Nalkarj on Dec 1, 2018 3:34:16 GMT
Well, I finished it. I’m not quite sure what to think. There’s some really great stuff in it, and I loved Darth Vader at the end. The way they shot him showed everything that impressed me about the character when I first watched these movies so long ago ( ). And it’s neat how everything ties in at the end (though, to be nitpicky, it doesn’t exactly seem like the ending of this and the beginning of Star Wars match up), and I was very impressed by good performances all-around. But I felt more for Mikkelson and his family in the beginning than I did for our band of heroes at the end, and there was the constant niggling feeling (until the end) that none of this needed to be set in space ( For Whom the Bell Tolls, eh?). It’s good at replicating the set-design and general world, but as I wrote there are points where I would never mistake this for anything other than a modern blockbuster. It’s missing a unique mixture of comedy, drama, war, horror, science fiction, and fantasy that @forceghostackbar has noted characterizes Star Wars. And CGI Cushing and Fisher creeped me out, reflexively and ethically. There are moments where it looks like ever other Hollywood blow ’er extravaganza to be viewed and quickly forgotten and moments where it looks unique and different. So I’m mixed. But it’s definitely better than The Force Awakens and especially The Last Jedi.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Dec 1, 2018 3:50:32 GMT
And CGI Cushing and Fisher creeped me out, reflexively and ethically. Just to clarify, I do not think recreating dead performers is a good idea overall because it requires too much work to even consider doing a good job, and the inability to make it perfect will create a "weird" reaction. So using makeup or just another actor is more organic. Ignoring the ethical issues I mean.
But as a technical magic trick experiment, I think its is interesting to see how close they get.
So, for those who have seen Solo, can Emilia Clarke act? She doesn't look so young in premiere photos I have seen--but in Terminator she looked like a teenager.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 1, 2018 3:51:03 GMT
So I’m wondering what the Senate were doing between the Emperor’s rise and when he dissolved it in the first one. Just sitting around, twiddling their thumbs, to rubber-stamp his decisions and say how great he is? Rogue 1 seems to imply that they have lost most of their power. They seem to live in fear or hiding. A few of the leaders in the command center crowd are senators - when Jyn gives her speech about "rebellions are built on hope". And the first time we see Bale Organa he comes skulking out of the shadows. He gives off a vibe that he has been keeping a low profile for quite some time despite still being a senator.
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Post by Nalkarj on Dec 1, 2018 3:54:24 GMT
So I’m wondering what the Senate were doing between the Emperor’s rise and when he dissolved it in the first one. Just sitting around, twiddling their thumbs, to rubber-stamp his decisions and say how great he is? Rogue 1 seems to imply that they have lost most of their power. They seem to live in fear or hiding. A few of the leaders in the command center crowd are senators - when Jyn gives her speech about “rebellions are built on hope”. And the first time we see Bale Organa he comes skulking out of the shadows. He gives off a vibe that he has been keeping a low profile for quite some time despite still being a senator. Bale Organa’s Jimmy Smits, right? I’d forgotten he was a senator. What’s her name, the Rebellion leader, said they were going to give evidence to the Senate about the Death Star or something, which prompted the question, and I can definitely tell they’ve lost most of their power, but I was just wondering how the Rebels expected the Senate to do anything about it even if the senators had all the information about the Emperor’s evil plans.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 1, 2018 4:10:55 GMT
Rogue 1 seems to imply that they have lost most of their power. They seem to live in fear or hiding. A few of the leaders in the command center crowd are senators - when Jyn gives her speech about “rebellions are built on hope”. And the first time we see Bale Organa he comes skulking out of the shadows. He gives off a vibe that he has been keeping a low profile for quite some time despite still being a senator. Bale Organa’s Jimmy Smits, right? I’d forgotten he was a senator. What’s her name, the Rebellion leader, said they were going to give evidence to the Senate about the Death Star or something, which prompted the question, and I can definitely tell they’ve lost most of their power, but I was just wondering how the Rebels expected the Senate to do anything about it even if the senators had all the information about the Emperor’s evil plans. Right (he's Jimmy Smits). The lead female senator you're thinking about is Mon Mothma. (No relation to Mon Calamari. Lol). It seems at this point that Rebellion leaders are trying to impress upon senators that they need to annex their branch of the government from the emperor. The argument being that the senators will only become more powerless and the emperor more oppressive and ruthless. But the rumors of the Death Star only seems to be pushing them back into fearful obedience or cowardice. By the time we get to that scene I just mentioned, the senators either seem to be resigning themselves to being politically paralyzed or entering into the Rebellion. But most of them are afraid to launch a full scale attack.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 4:25:10 GMT
Sorry I missed your watching this one. Glad you got some enjoyment out of it! For me, it wasn't saga material, but a decent movie. I also liked the portrayal of non Force sensitives relationship to the Force.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 1, 2018 5:08:36 GMT
Well, I finished it. I’m not quite sure what to think. There’s some really great stuff in it, and I loved Darth Vader at the end. The way they shot him showed everything that impressed me about the character when I first watched these movies so long ago ( ). And it’s neat how everything ties in at the end (though, to be nitpicky, it doesn’t exactly seem like the ending of this and the beginning of Star Wars match up), and I was very impressed by good performances all-around. But I felt more for Mikkelson and his family in the beginning than I did for our band of heroes at the end, and there was the constant niggling feeling (until the end) that none of this needed to be set in space ( For Whom the Bell Tolls, eh?). It’s good at replicating the set-design and general world, but as I wrote there are points where I would never mistake this for anything other than a modern blockbuster. It’s missing a unique mixture of comedy, drama, war, horror, science fiction, and fantasy that @forceghostackbar has noted characterizes Star Wars. And CGI Cushing and Fisher creeped me out, reflexively and ethically. There are moments where it looks like ever other Hollywood blow ’er extravaganza to be viewed and quickly forgotten and moments where it looks unique and different. So I’m mixed. But it’s definitely better than The Force Awakens and especially The Last Jedi. Great review! I tend to agree with everything you said here. Although the tone of the movie probably demanded a little less comedy, I think it did excessively suffer. I thought that they did a very impressive job on CGI Tarkin, but I agree with your complaints. In closeup shots the fakeness was obvious. I didn't know at the first time I saw it that the actor was taller than Cushing, but when I was watching it I kept feeling like he just seems bigger somehow. And the voice: I have the same complaint that I had with Eisenreich's voice as Han Solo. Sometimes it seemed like he was getting close. Other times I just thought "Man, you're not even trying!" CGI Leia: to me she seemed even creepier. Something about the lower half of her face made her look like a bad animatronic. Glad to have you on the SW board. Looking forward to more of your comments on SW.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 10:57:41 GMT
Nalkarj, I don't know if I've shared this video with you before, but just in case I haven't, here's a Bill Moyers interview with George Lucas that centers on the whole mythos Lucas used to tell his story. A great watch for aspiring storytellers.
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