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Post by Lord Death Man on Jul 5, 2018 23:41:16 GMT
Is it really so different, Lord Akbar? Do you really want consensus-driven art designed only for a rabid section of the fanbase? Do you want one section of the base to dominate the entire platform? Come to me in your darkest hour, search your feelings...The New Star Wars Trilogy is delibrately generic and designed specifically by consensus. It is not art. It is the opposite of art. I didn't want it to be designed specifically for one section of fans. That isn't my point. I wanted it to actually respect the original characters and tell worthwhile stories with some actual creativity and introduce new characters that were actually compelling. TFA was a lazy remake designed to capitalize on nostalgia and TLJ was a lazy remake of ESB that revealed that they had no outline for what would actually happen in this trilogy. Yes, this is my opinion and you can disagree. But I have the right to voice this opinion without being labeled as toxic by those who disagree. Do you think that Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope would be a multi-billion dollar hit if released today? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2018 2:49:43 GMT
The New Star Wars Trilogy is delibrately generic and designed specifically by consensus. It is not art. It is the opposite of art. I didn't want it to be designed specifically for one section of fans. That isn't my point. I wanted it to actually respect the original characters and tell worthwhile stories with some actual creativity and introduce new characters that were actually compelling. TFA was a lazy remake designed to capitalize on nostalgia and TLJ was a lazy remake of ESB that revealed that they had no outline for what would actually happen in this trilogy. Yes, this is my opinion and you can disagree. But I have the right to voice this opinion without being labeled as toxic by those who disagree. Do you think that Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope would be a multi-billion dollar hit if released today? I see where you're going with this... Star Wars was a pioneering movie, both in terms of FX and blockbuster movie making. So, with respect, that question is irrelevant. You can't play that particular card to defend the sequels. No. The sequels cannot break the same ground therefore they cannot live up to the same expectations. But that does NOT excuse weak story telling, awful characterization and blatant rehashing. Yes, Disney was in a tough position from a story telling and movie making standpoint. But that's not a complete defense for sequels that have been lazy, generic, hacky, and pandering. |
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Jul 6, 2018 3:15:58 GMT
To be fair, Disney inherited a damaged property because Lucas waited so long to get to prequels/sequels. And the things that were crucial to the success of Star Wars like FX innovation, are no longer unique to a Star Wars film so they lost that edge.
But they think like a board room of hedge fund managers.
James Gunn is like the Bib Fortuna to Disney's Jabba.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2018 5:01:45 GMT
To be fair, Disney inherited a damaged property because Lucas waited so long to get to prequels/sequels. And the things that were crucial to the success of Star Wars like FX innovation, are no longer unique to a Star Wars film so they lost that edge. But they think like a board room of hedge fund managers. James Gunn is like the Bib Fortuna to Disney's Jabba. I've always said that the time to make sequels was 1985-1995. After a franchise has gone more than ten years without an installment it becomes nigh impossible to make a follow up that will A) Meet expectations and B) Still maintain the same tone and style of the originals. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jul 6, 2018 5:06:53 GMT
If that is truly your stance, than Star Wars isn't art. It's just a thing that is meant to be consumed. It's a consensus-driven commodity made by corporations for the masses to inhale and than exhale like any other waste product. It's not meant to be lasting or unique. Instead it's somehow meant to be made for a specific audience at a specific moment in time. It's the happy ending a John pays for after his massage. I don't think that Star Wars was meant solely for a specific group of people. That, in and of itself, defies economic reality. Star Wars was made for anyone willing to spend a ticket on it. The fandom's current attitude only guarantees that it will be shuddered as corporations deem the "commodity" to be too troublesome to continue to produce and maintain. Things are never that black and white in real life. Music is still art, and it's also marketable and consumed by billions of people. Different types of music is targeted and marketed to different kinds of people. Some music is free. Some are more artful than others. And some types of music die off because they don't have enough consumers to keep them alive. Same is true for movies. Just because they are target for different groups and consumers doesn't make then simple commodities nor does it mean they are no longer art. And though the target audience of TLJ was not exactly exclusive, a good chunk of that target audience was still the Star Wars fans. "A good chunk" does not a business model make. Disney had to look to the future. The future is diversification or death. To serve the old guard only to be torn apart by the new for being too white, too male, too macho, too violent or too whatever is economic suicide. The hipsters and social justice warriors outnumber the old guard. You made a dent in Solo but, it won't be enough to stop the machine. Star Wars fans need to hunker down and weather this storm. Your fandom has enjoyed decades of privilege. And don't start in on the "silent" period, there were still toys, cartoons, video games and extended content out there to consume. You've almost always had it good while almost every other fandom had to sit still for dull, exploitative movies made on zero-dollar budgets --- sometimes for decades at a time. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2018 5:23:11 GMT
Things are never that black and white in real life. Music is still art, and it's also marketable and consumed by billions of people. Different types of music is targeted and marketed to different kinds of people. Some music is free. Some are more artful than others. And some types of music die off because they don't have enough consumers to keep them alive. Same is true for movies. Just because they are target for different groups and consumers doesn't make then simple commodities nor does it mean they are no longer art. And though the target audience of TLJ was not exactly exclusive, a good chunk of that target audience was still the Star Wars fans. "A good chunk" does not a business model make. Disney had to look to the future. The future is diversification or death. To serve the old guard only to be torn apart by the new for being too white, too male, too macho, too violent or too whatever is economic suicide. The hipsters and social justice warriors outnumber the old guard. You made a dent in Solo but, it won't be enough to stop the machine. Star Wars fans need to hunker down and weather this storm. Your fandom has enjoyed decades of privilege. And don't start in on the "silent" period, there were still toys, cartoons, video games and extended content out there to consume. You've almost always had it good while almost every other fandom had to sit still for dull, exploitative movies made on zero-dollar budgets --- sometimes for decades at a time. I don't mean to argue with you anymore, Skull Man... But you are assuming that ALL TLJ haters are upset about the diversity. That is so unfair. I was thrilled to hear that there would be a female lead. I'm not upset about that at all... I just think she's a boring, underdeveloped one dimensional character. It has nothing to do with her gender. |
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Post by darkpast on Jul 6, 2018 5:32:03 GMT
this is not good. never feed the trolls.
pretend they don't exist is a winning option, addressing them gives them power.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jul 6, 2018 5:43:41 GMT
Do you think that Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope would be a multi-billion dollar hit if released today? I see where you're going with this... Star Wars was a pioneering movie, both in terms of FX and blockbuster movie making. So, with respect, that question is irrelevant. You can't play that particular card to defend the sequels. No. The sequels cannot break the same ground therefore they cannot live up to the same expectations. But that does NOT excuse weak story telling, awful characterization and blatant rehashing. Yes, Disney was in a tough position from a story telling and movie making standpoint. But that's not a complete defense for sequels that have been lazy, generic, hacky, and pandering. I'm not defending the sequels, prequels or any Star Wars content for that matter. My absolute favorite Star Wars film is now Rouge One. Where can Star Wars go as an ongoing saga that is even mildly relevant to anyone circa 2018? The idea of beanie-sporting evil empires and scrappy rebels is a bit quaint in a post-911 world. Even as pure escapism, the idea of an entire universe peopled by a single royal family and a revolving door of their supporting characters and enemies is laughable. Today our adversaries are unseen; they operate in shadow. Modern warfare is profoundly asymmetrical - the opposition doesn't come strolling onto the field sporting branded S&M gear while giving half-baked motivational speeches and twirling their handlebars. They ship YA novels with less didactic themes. This new world belongs to the omnipresent, headless cartels, insurgents and terror agents --- and their way is suffering and darkness. Thematically, and this is me not having a dog in the fight, Star Wars has all of the sophistication of an O'Henry novel. Somewhere, someone somehow will turn out to be some else's, long-lost brother or sister --- and, isn't it a hoot though? The concepts of faith and balance are lost on a hyper-connected, data-driven generation that trusts their next Facebook update more than they ever would a priest or some old chubby guy wearing a hood. Star Wars needed to be rebooted, not repackaged. In the immortal words of Ultron, "you want to save your fandom, but you don't want it to change." |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jul 6, 2018 6:01:40 GMT
"A good chunk" does not a business model make. Disney had to look to the future. The future is diversification or death. To serve the old guard only to be torn apart by the new for being too white, too male, too macho, too violent or too whatever is economic suicide. The hipsters and social justice warriors outnumber the old guard. You made a dent in Solo but, it won't be enough to stop the machine. Star Wars fans need to hunker down and weather this storm. Your fandom has enjoyed decades of privilege. And don't start in on the "silent" period, there were still toys, cartoons, video games, comic books, novels and other extended content out there to consume. You've almost always had it good while almost every other fandom had to sit still for dull, exploitative movies made on zero-dollar budgets --- sometimes for decades at a time. Sounds painful. Maybe you should go to therapy. I am in-therapy, High Lord Akbar. I am therapy. Come, join me in your darkest hour. |
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 6:06:30 GMT
Things are never that black and white in real life. Music is still art, and it's also marketable and consumed by billions of people. Different types of music is targeted and marketed to different kinds of people. Some music is free. Some are more artful than others. And some types of music die off because they don't have enough consumers to keep them alive. Same is true for movies. Just because they are target for different groups and consumers doesn't make then simple commodities nor does it mean they are no longer art. And though the target audience of TLJ was not exactly exclusive, a good chunk of that target audience was still the Star Wars fans. "A good chunk" does not a business model make. Disney had to look to the future. The future is diversification or death. To serve the old guard only to be torn apart by the new for being too white, too male, too macho, too violent or too whatever is economic suicide. The hipsters and social justice warriors outnumber the old guard. You made a dent in Solo but, it won't be enough to stop the machine. Star Wars fans need to hunker down and weather this storm. Your fandom has enjoyed decades of privilege. And don't start in on the "silent" period, there were still toys, cartoons, video games and extended content out there to consume. You've almost always had it good while almost every other fandom had to sit still for dull, exploitative movies made on zero-dollar budgets --- sometimes for decades at a time. Except diversity wasn't what people were complaining about in TLJ. And yes, alienating your fans is not a good business model. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jul 6, 2018 6:14:35 GMT
"A good chunk" does not a business model make. Disney had to look to the future. The future is diversification or death. To serve the old guard only to be torn apart by the new for being too white, too male, too macho, too violent or too whatever is economic suicide. The hipsters and social justice warriors outnumber the old guard. You made a dent in Solo but, it won't be enough to stop the machine. Star Wars fans need to hunker down and weather this storm. Your fandom has enjoyed decades of privilege. And don't start in on the "silent" period, there were still toys, cartoons, video games and extended content out there to consume. You've almost always had it good while almost every other fandom had to sit still for dull, exploitative movies made on zero-dollar budgets --- sometimes for decades at a time. Except diversity wasn't what people were complaining about in TLJ. And yes, alienating your fans is not a good business model. It wasn't? Oh, well that news to me. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. |
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 6:36:22 GMT
Except diversity wasn't what people were complaining about in TLJ. And yes, alienating your fans is not a good business model. It wasn't? Oh, well that news to me. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. They weren't. They were complaining about Rey being a Mary Sue. About all the men being made into villains or incompetents. About giving Leia superpowers she never had. About completely trashing Luke's character. About completely wasting Phasma and Snoke. About screwing over the effort needed to master the force. About the movie concentrating on a shallow and irritating character, etc. The complaints weren't about diversity. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jul 6, 2018 6:38:56 GMT
It wasn't? Oh, well that news to me. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. They weren't. They were complaining about Rey being a Mary Sue. About all the men being made into villains or incompetents. About giving Leia superpowers she never had. About completely trashing Luke's character. About completely wasting Phasma and Snoke. About screwing over the effort needed to master the force. About the movie concentrating on a shallow and irritating character, etc. The complaints weren't about diversity. Okay then, you don't have to convince me but, you may want to jump in and answer this fella's question on Quora. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jul 6, 2018 7:16:58 GMT
"A good chunk" does not a business model make. Disney had to look to the future. The future is diversification or death. To serve the old guard only to be torn apart by the new for being too white, too male, too macho, too violent or too whatever is economic suicide. The hipsters and social justice warriors outnumber the old guard. You made a dent in Solo but, it won't be enough to stop the machine. Star Wars fans need to hunker down and weather this storm. Your fandom has enjoyed decades of privilege. And don't start in on the "silent" period, there were still toys, cartoons, video games and extended content out there to consume. You've almost always had it good while almost every other fandom had to sit still for dull, exploitative movies made on zero-dollar budgets --- sometimes for decades at a time. I don't mean to argue with you anymore, Skull Man... But you are assuming that ALL TLJ haters are upset about the diversity. That is so unfair. I was thrilled to hear that there would be a female lead. I'm not upset about that at all... I just think she's a boring, underdeveloped one dimensional character. It has nothing to do with her gender. We're not arguing, Lord Akbar we're just disagreeing. I agree with you on the slip in quality of the new films - although probably not to the same degree. I think Star Wars has many shortcomings with regards to overall relevance that needs to be addressed (see my other biting post). |
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Jul 6, 2018 8:31:30 GMT
repetitio est mater studiorum, zombie brains. Our good Mr Gunn here seems not to get it, or would he otherwise so mindlessly rant if he was aware of the sad irony of his output. Projection maybe?
Anyway, it's the pot calling the glass-kettle black while throwing infinity stones. Sometimes all it takes is a broken mirror and a little push.
...and you know, there is a therapy for any attitude my foul-mouthed fiend. 
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Post by damngumby on Jul 6, 2018 12:26:42 GMT
Here's the thing: Are there fanboys and fangirls out there that need to chill the fuck out, possibly smoke weed for an hour? Yes abso-fuvking-lutely! No questions asked. But let's be honest here about James Gunn. This tweet is just another typical Hollywood jerkoff appealing to the popular trend on shitting on fans. Yes there are fans who take it too far. Yes there's people out there who need to log off the internet and get laid because HOLLY SHIT! But I do wish James would fuck off with this high and mighty bullshit. By the way where was this attitude when he got attacked for not including any LGBT characters in Guardians of the Galaxy vol 2? Funny how it's okay to shit on one fandom when another fandom got pissy with him last year. James Gunn is saying the same thing you just said. Except he was able to get his point across without launching into a expletive ladened rant. Do do you really think the psycho angry Star Wars fan phenomena is even remotely comparable to a few sexually confused individuals complaining about a lack of representation in GOTG2? Gunn comments on the over abundance of “hate and bile” by crazed movie fans, and you knuckleheads prove his point by responding with an over abundance of hate and bile. Take a chill pill, dude. |
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Post by charzhino on Jul 6, 2018 12:57:13 GMT
Gunn comments on the over abundance of “hate and bile” by crazed movie fans, and you knuckleheads prove his point by responding with an over abundance of hate and bile. Take a chill pill, dude. If someone says to Rian Johnson, your movie absolutely sucks, you're a $@it director and youve destroyed the Star Wars mythos, would you consider this hate/bile? |
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jul 6, 2018 13:24:35 GMT
Here's the thing: Are there fanboys and fangirls out there that need to chill the fuck out, possibly smoke weed for an hour? Yes abso-fuvking-lutely! No questions asked. But let's be honest here about James Gunn. This tweet is just another typical Hollywood jerkoff appealing to the popular trend on shitting on fans. Yes there are fans who take it too far. Yes there's people out there who need to log off the internet and get laid because HOLLY SHIT! But I do wish James would fuck off with this high and mighty bullshit. By the way where was this attitude when he got attacked for not including any LGBT characters in Guardians of the Galaxy vol 2? Funny how it's okay to shit on one fandom when another fandom got pissy with him last year. James Gunn is saying the same thing you just said. Except he was able to get his point across without launching into a expletive ladened rant. Do do you really think the psycho angry Star Wars fan phenomena is even remotely comparable to a few sexually confused individuals complaining about a lack of representation in GOTG2? Gunn comments on the over abundance of “hate and bile” by crazed movie fans, and you knuckleheads prove his point by responding with an over abundance of hate and bile. Take a chill pill, dude. Uh what? Excuse me? Where in my post did I say anything hateful or bile? I didn't completely disagree with him. But I also don't believe he posted this out of the kindness of his heart. He was attacked by marvel fans last year, so where was this tweet last year? |
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 6, 2018 13:40:28 GMT
They weren't. They were complaining about Rey being a Mary Sue. About all the men being made into villains or incompetents. About giving Leia superpowers she never had. About completely trashing Luke's character. About completely wasting Phasma and Snoke. About screwing over the effort needed to master the force. About the movie concentrating on a shallow and irritating character, etc. The complaints weren't about diversity. Okay then, you don't have to convince me but, you may want to jump in and answer this fella's question on Quora. Uhmm...ok? Based from that person's question it a doesn't seem like they had an issue regarding diversity. The question they ask is about why pushing an agenda became more important than making a good movie and well-made and characters. That doesn't mean they're against diversity. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jul 6, 2018 14:08:38 GMT
Okay then, you don't have to convince me but, you may want to jump in and answer this fella's question on Quora. Uhmm...ok? Based from that person's question it a doesn't seem like they had an issue regarding diversity. The question they ask is about why pushing an agenda became more important than making a good movie and well-made and characters. That doesn't mean they're against diversity. So what agenda is s/he against exactly? Because, when I say "diversity" I'm referring to the overall phantom "SJW" agenda that some Star Wars fans seem to be against in TLJ but, if you say they aren't, then I guess they aren't. I really don't have a dog in the SW fight so it's your party, man. |
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