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Post by harpospoke on Jul 20, 2018 18:28:48 GMT
Sure, but nobody is complaining. Duke fans in New Jersey don't care that Duke isn't in New Jersey, so it isn't regional, as you suggested. And again, division 1 is filled with teams that have no shot at winning a national title but the fans still go to the games. Your commentary on the draft is puzzling. Players 'line up' for the draft because there is no other option, this is the point I've been making. And please don't tell me they can go work at the convenience store if they don't like it, that logic has no place in this discussion. I was talking about the smaller colleges who have no shot at winning. They only have fans for regional reasons. And of course any alumni will always root for their old team. As we see, the winning teams get most of the fans. You left out the part where players have a ton of options. First of all, they start working toward being in the NBA and NFL years before. All this effort to join a league you claim isn't fair to them. They use phrases like, "It's my dream to play in the NBA". That's the one and only reason "there is no other option"...because that's all they are working toward and they carefully develop those skills. Most ignore all the options they are presented with in college in favor of concentrating all their effort on the "dream" you claim is not fair to them. There is only a need to work at a convenience store if you ignore all your options other than the NBA. That's true of anyone. If I spend years and years of my time developing the skills to be an astronaut and then decide I don't like it years later....my other option would be a convenience store. That's on me. It actually happens to people all the time. Ask all the people who worked in the photo processing industry a decade ago. Well there is where it gets sticky because that's not fair to the players either. Now you are "forcing" them to play for a team they don't want to play for in order to get paid what they deserve. Same problem you are complaining about with the draft. And this would break up great teams which were built with the talent of the front office. They are actually punished for doing their jobs well. Why should the Warriors lose their players? They drafted brilliantly. It's unlikely they will ever pull that off again. I'll repeat again that I never complain about what players make like some fans do. They deserve every penny. I wish them well...but not at my expense as a fan. So I get the flaws in not having free agency too. The players would have to hold out to get what they deserve. That's not fair to them either. It's a difficult question. I say the fans side should matter just as much. There is no easy way to make it work because some markets just aren't as attractive as other markets. Some teams will always have more money to spend. The whole thing is flawed at its core so there will be a never ending fight to make competition equal. I just don't see how giving the players the power to choose their team helps competitive balance. Might as well eliminate certain teams from small unappealing markets. A team in Utah would be pointless. At least with a draft places like Green Bay and Pittsburgh have a chance to be a dynasty. Of course every team will have SOME fans. Even the Clippers got a small fan base. Just like WNBA...."fans go to the games". That's hardly comparable to the fan bases for the big teams. We see how it works....the winning teams get the bulk of the fans. The smaller teams get far less fans and rarely get on TV. Plus you left out that the only reason Toronto and Indiana have fans is because they were able to draft players. You think the Raptors would have the fans they do if they never had Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Chris Bosh? All those guys left of course. They never would have gone there if they had a choice out of college. How is that fair to Raptors fans? Agreed. Luv ya man. I just have to approach the issue from my side as a fan. The players get to approach it from their side. Same with the owners. I'm not about to fret over the owners freedom to move their teams away from my city either.  I think they should be required to sell the team if they don't like the city the team is in. Maybe that's not fair to them, but it's fair to me as a fan.
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Post by eggwhiteomelette on Jul 20, 2018 18:29:12 GMT
You always have the option of not being a fan. I stepped away from baseball for 14 years. Agreed. Lots of sports fans are choosing not to be fans of the NBA and MLB. MLB is in serious trouble. Their fan base gets one year older every year. And it's ludicrous that the NBA isn't more popular. They've had the most popular athletes on the planet over the past 30 years.I stopped watching the NBA myself for a few years after that absurd 2006 Finals. The stink of corruption was too much to take. Is that a supportable assertion, or just horseshit?
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Post by harpospoke on Jul 20, 2018 18:35:38 GMT
Agreed. Lots of sports fans are choosing not to be fans of the NBA and MLB. MLB is in serious trouble. Their fan base gets one year older every year. And it's ludicrous that the NBA isn't more popular. They've had the most popular athletes on the planet over the past 30 years.I stopped watching the NBA myself for a few years after that absurd 2006 Finals. The stink of corruption was too much to take. Is that a supportable assertion, or just horseshit? I would put the NBA stars of the past 30 years against any sport. I realize Soccer and F1 also have had huge stars, but the NBA has a procession of stars that never seems to let up. Magic, Bird, MJ, Vince Carter, Iverson, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Curry..... Those guys are massive worldwide....and the NBA lags far behind the NFL in the USA.
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Post by harpospoke on Jul 20, 2018 18:36:50 GMT
Agreed. Lots of sports fans are choosing not to be fans of the NBA and MLB. MLB is in serious trouble. Their fan base gets one year older every year. And it's ludicrous that the NBA isn't more popular. They've had the most popular athletes on the planet over the past 30 years. I stopped watching the NBA myself for a few years after that absurd 2006 Finals. The stink of corruption was too much to take. What is ludicrous? The NBA is HUGE and gets more popular every year. It is the second most popular sport in the world. Not "huge" in the USA. The NFL is the only "huge" sport in the USA. Which is baffling. Well...the absurd 82 game schedule probably has something to do with that.
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Post by theshape25 on Jul 20, 2018 18:36:57 GMT
College sports aren't based on regional loyalty, they're based on winning. Do you think all Duke fans are from North Carolina? All NY Yankees fans are from New York? The collegiate system isn't fair to the fans and they show up anyway, this was my point. You can quit Bank of America and go to another bank. But quitting the NFL to play in an inferior league or become a broadcaster is a major step down in prestige and salary, it isn't even close to being a comparable opportunity. Odd argument. As I already explained, anybody can be a branch manager for Bank of America; an elite pro athlete has specific skills that make him a commodity of significant value. It's entertainment and the athlete literally is the show.
But let's flip that argument around. Imagine the rest of the world worked the way pro sports do. To stick with the bank analogy, let's say I always wanted to be the branch manager of my local bank, but I got drafted by bank of America. I shouldn't be allowed to pursue an opportunity with my local bank? I should work at a gas station instead because hey, that's the choice I made by not wanting to work for bank of America. It's ludicrous. How's the draft been working out for Sacramento? Switching formats literally could not be any worse for them. Players choosing their own destinies would probably have the same success rate as executives doing it. Dynasties have ruled the early years of most sports league, pro or otherwise, and the popularity of those leagues was built on those dynasties. Competitive balance came along with free agency, by not allowing the one competent and/or financially secure team to hold onto the best players indefinitely. Agreed, and that isn't what I set out to do. I'm looking at it from the player's perspective; from the average person's perspective. Any normal person would try to maximize their opportunities in life, pro athletes are no different. Your 'fan' perspective treats players as property instead of accepting their rights as laborers. There's no reason a person should be forced to either work for the bank that drafted them or find a new occupation picking up elephant dung at the circus. Same goes for pro athletes. Suggesting they either play for one team or go become broadcasters is crazy. As an aside, the NBA has only had 11 franchises win championships since 1980. 11 franchises in 38 years. Not much of an argument for competitive balance under the current format. I realize that it would suck to get called into the office and told, "you've been traded to..." but it happens in sports and has been happening for decades. They all know this going in. If he doesn't like it then maybe he should choose another career or maybe he should have just kept his mouth shut about all this trade stuff, played the upcoming season with the Spurs and then left via free agency. He pretty much brought all this stuff on himself by saying, "I want to be traded." Did he expect San Antonio to just hand him over to whatever team he wanted? Imo he should just suck it up, collect his millions from Toronto, and go play in LA the following season.
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Post by eggwhiteomelette on Jul 20, 2018 18:38:53 GMT
Is that a supportable assertion, or just horseshit? I would put the NBA stars of the past 30 years against any sport. I realize Soccer and F1 also have had huge stars, but the NBA has a procession of stars that never seems to let up. Magic, Bird, MJ, Vince Carter, Iverson, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Curry..... Those guys are massive worldwide....and the NBA lags far behind the NFL in the USA. So horseshit then.
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Post by harpospoke on Jul 20, 2018 18:45:24 GMT
I would put the NBA stars of the past 30 years against any sport. I realize Soccer and F1 also have had huge stars, but the NBA has a procession of stars that never seems to let up. Magic, Bird, MJ, Vince Carter, Iverson, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Curry..... Those guys are massive worldwide....and the NBA lags far behind the NFL in the USA. So horseshit then. You seem to disagree. That's fine. You didn't provide anything to change my mind.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jul 20, 2018 18:48:58 GMT
College sports aren't based on regional loyalty, they're based on winning. Do you think all Duke fans are from North Carolina? All NY Yankees fans are from New York? The collegiate system isn't fair to the fans and they show up anyway, this was my point. You can quit Bank of America and go to another bank. But quitting the NFL to play in an inferior league or become a broadcaster is a major step down in prestige and salary, it isn't even close to being a comparable opportunity. Odd argument. As I already explained, anybody can be a branch manager for Bank of America; an elite pro athlete has specific skills that make him a commodity of significant value. It's entertainment and the athlete literally is the show.
But let's flip that argument around. Imagine the rest of the world worked the way pro sports do. To stick with the bank analogy, let's say I always wanted to be the branch manager of my local bank, but I got drafted by bank of America. I shouldn't be allowed to pursue an opportunity with my local bank? I should work at a gas station instead because hey, that's the choice I made by not wanting to work for bank of America. It's ludicrous. How's the draft been working out for Sacramento? Switching formats literally could not be any worse for them. Players choosing their own destinies would probably have the same success rate as executives doing it. Dynasties have ruled the early years of most sports league, pro or otherwise, and the popularity of those leagues was built on those dynasties. Competitive balance came along with free agency, by not allowing the one competent and/or financially secure team to hold onto the best players indefinitely. Agreed, and that isn't what I set out to do. I'm looking at it from the player's perspective; from the average person's perspective. Any normal person would try to maximize their opportunities in life, pro athletes are no different. Your 'fan' perspective treats players as property instead of accepting their rights as laborers. There's no reason a person should be forced to either work for the bank that drafted them or find a new occupation picking up elephant dung at the circus. Same goes for pro athletes. Suggesting they either play for one team or go become broadcasters is crazy. As an aside, the NBA has only had 11 franchises win championships since 1980. 11 franchises in 38 years. Not much of an argument for competitive balance under the current format. I realize that it would suck to get called into the office and told, "you've been traded to..." but it happens in sports and has been happening for decades. They all know this going in. If he doesn't like it then maybe he should choose another career or maybe he should have just kept his mouth shut about all this trade stuff, played the upcoming season with the Spurs and then left via free agency. He pretty much brought all this stuff on himself by saying, "I want to be traded." Did he expect San Antonio to just hand him over to whatever team he wanted? Imo he should just suck it up, collect his millions from Toronto, and go play in LA the following season. Not sure what the argument here is. I'm fully aware the current system has been in place for decades, I'm saying it's flawed and it always has been.
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Post by DSDSquared on Jul 20, 2018 19:00:31 GMT
What is ludicrous? The NBA is HUGE and gets more popular every year. It is the second most popular sport in the world. Not "huge" in the USA. The NFL is the only "huge" sport in the USA. Which is baffling. Well...the absurd 82 game schedule probably has something to do with that. Still pretty huge in the US and the second biggest sport in the US too.
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Post by eggwhiteomelette on Jul 20, 2018 19:01:15 GMT
You seem to disagree. That's fine. You didn't provide anything to change my mind. The assertion was yours. You failed to support it. Ergo, horseshit.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 20, 2018 22:56:20 GMT
Is that a supportable assertion, or just horseshit? I would put the NBA stars of the past 30 years against any sport. I realize Soccer and F1 also have had huge stars, but the NBA has a procession of stars that never seems to let up. Magic, Bird, MJ, Vince Carter, Iverson, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Curry..... Those guys are massive worldwide....and the NBA lags far behind the NFL in the USA. NBA stars are nowhere near as famous as Messi or Ronaldo and even Michael Jordon was no where as famous as Maradona or Pele worldwide. I understand that some people of USA do not have exposure to what goes on outside of USA but no NBA stars are not a name in middle east, Africa, India etc. Football stars are recognised in all those places and in Europe and in South America. NBA has gained some prominence in China since Yao Ming but football is far bigger in China than Basketball. So unless you place popularity in America as more important thing, there is no way in the world that NBA stars are bigger than football stars. It's not even comparable.
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Post by theshape25 on Jul 21, 2018 1:55:14 GMT
I realize that it would suck to get called into the office and told, "you've been traded to..." but it happens in sports and has been happening for decades. They all know this going in. If he doesn't like it then maybe he should choose another career or maybe he should have just kept his mouth shut about all this trade stuff, played the upcoming season with the Spurs and then left via free agency. He pretty much brought all this stuff on himself by saying, "I want to be traded." Did he expect San Antonio to just hand him over to whatever team he wanted? Imo he should just suck it up, collect his millions from Toronto, and go play in LA the following season. Not sure what the argument here is. I'm fully aware the current system has been in place for decades, I'm saying it's flawed and it always has been. My point is that the guy demanded a trade, and he got it. Now he's all upset that it wasn't to the team of his choice and he is threatening to sit out the season which could render the deal null and void. What if San Antonio thought that was their best deal? So now they have to take him back and try to work out a deal with the Lakers with pretty much no leverage because the Lakers know that they are his choice? Like I said before, he can go collect his millions in Toronto for 82 games and sign with the Lakers next off season if he so chooses.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 2:38:50 GMT
I would put the NBA stars of the past 30 years against any sport. I realize Soccer and F1 also have had huge stars, but the NBA has a procession of stars that never seems to let up. Magic, Bird, MJ, Vince Carter, Iverson, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Curry..... Those guys are massive worldwide....and the NBA lags far behind the NFL in the USA. NBA stars are nowhere near as famous as Messi or Ronaldo and even Michael Jordon was no where as famous as Maradona or Pele worldwide. I understand that some people of USA do not have exposure to what goes on outside of USA but no NBA stars are not a name in middle east, Africa, India etc. Football stars are recognised in all those places and in Europe and in South America. NBA has gained some prominence in China since Yao Ming but football is far bigger in China than Basketball. So unless you place popularity in America as more important thing, there is no way in the world that NBA stars are bigger than football stars. It's not even comparable. I, as well as 99.9% of Americans couldn't spot any of these clowns in a police lineup. Send Shaq, MJ, LeBron, Kobe over to Istanbul and they'll get their toes sucked on by the locals.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 21, 2018 3:19:54 GMT
NBA stars are nowhere near as famous as Messi or Ronaldo and even Michael Jordon was no where as famous as Maradona or Pele worldwide. I understand that some people of USA do not have exposure to what goes on outside of USA but no NBA stars are not a name in middle east, Africa, India etc. Football stars are recognised in all those places and in Europe and in South America. NBA has gained some prominence in China since Yao Ming but football is far bigger in China than Basketball. So unless you place popularity in America as more important thing, there is no way in the world that NBA stars are bigger than football stars. It's not even comparable. I, as well as 99.9% of Americans couldn't spot any of these clowns in a police lineup. Send Shaq, MJ, LeBron, Kobe over to Istanbul and they'll get their toes sucked on by the locals. Among all sports in Turkey, the most popular one is football.[1]
Ronaldo in Turkey
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Post by sdm3 on Jul 21, 2018 3:59:40 GMT
I would put the NBA stars of the past 30 years against any sport. I realize Soccer and F1 also have had huge stars, but the NBA has a procession of stars that never seems to let up. Magic, Bird, MJ, Vince Carter, Iverson, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Curry..... Those guys are massive worldwide....and the NBA lags far behind the NFL in the USA. NBA stars are nowhere near as famous as Messi or Ronaldo and even Michael Jordon was no where as famous as Maradona or Pele worldwide. I understand that some people of USA do not have exposure to what goes on outside of USA but no NBA stars are not a name in middle east, Africa, India etc. Football stars are recognised in all those places and in Europe and in South America. NBA has gained some prominence in China since Yao Ming but football is far bigger in China than Basketball. So unless you place popularity in America as more important thing, there is no way in the world that NBA stars are bigger than football stars. It's not even comparable. I agree with most of your post but I will point out that soccer is not “far bigger” than basketball in China specifically (I live there). Basketball is definitely the most popular sport in China.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 21, 2018 5:04:17 GMT
NBA stars are nowhere near as famous as Messi or Ronaldo and even Michael Jordon was no where as famous as Maradona or Pele worldwide. I understand that some people of USA do not have exposure to what goes on outside of USA but no NBA stars are not a name in middle east, Africa, India etc. Football stars are recognised in all those places and in Europe and in South America. NBA has gained some prominence in China since Yao Ming but football is far bigger in China than Basketball. So unless you place popularity in America as more important thing, there is no way in the world that NBA stars are bigger than football stars. It's not even comparable. I agree with most of your post but I will point out that soccer is not “far bigger” than basketball in China specifically (I live there). Basketball is definitely the most popular sport in China. Thanks for correcting on China.
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Post by OrsonSwelles on Jul 21, 2018 11:11:28 GMT
NBA stars are nowhere near as famous as Messi or Ronaldo and even Michael Jordon was no where as famous as Maradona or Pele worldwide. I understand that some people of USA do not have exposure to what goes on outside of USA but no NBA stars are not a name in middle east, Africa, India etc. Football stars are recognised in all those places and in Europe and in South America. NBA has gained some prominence in China since Yao Ming but football is far bigger in China than Basketball. So unless you place popularity in America as more important thing, there is no way in the world that NBA stars are bigger than football stars. It's not even comparable. I agree with most of your post but I will point out that soccer is not “far bigger” than basketball in China specifically (I live there). Basketball is definitely the most popular sport in China. I thought ping pong and badminton would be most popular?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 11:16:02 GMT
I hope at the trade deadline Toronto dumps him to another dead end town - just to gain any asset (even if it is the 60th pick in the Draft) before he bolts to L.A. and makes him suffer for another few months.
How do you like riding out the year in Memphis Kawhi?
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