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Post by sostie on Jul 26, 2018 21:45:36 GMT
Dark Knight is probably the greatest CBM movie ever. But it isn't my favourite, or the one I enjoyed the most
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Jul 26, 2018 21:49:15 GMT
But you're essentially trading one basic formula for another; being dark and gritty and grounded and depressing (depending on how dark you go). Why should they do that? Since when do superhero films have to do that to be amazing? Because that particular formula brings out the best in plot, character and story. Thats why dramas win big awards. And that's why BvS fell flat on it's face when they did that with Superman. Not all superhero characters can go that route.
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Post by hobowar on Jul 26, 2018 22:11:20 GMT
Because that particular formula brings out the best in plot, character and story. Thats why dramas win big awards. And that's why BvS fell flat on it's face when they did that with Superman. Not all superhero characters can go that route. I still can't get over how bad BvS was. It was the Tommy Wiseau of comic book movies.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2018 22:27:45 GMT
TDK is the best but I would say Logan, X2, Infinity War and Winter Soldier come close.
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Post by hobowar on Jul 26, 2018 22:46:04 GMT
I'd say all the Captain America and Avengers movies so far have been better the Dark Knight in almost every way. Most of the dialogue in Dark Knight was awkward and clunky sounding and the Jokers plan relied too heavily on everyone else in the movie being retarded. It's funny people criticised Zemo for his plan having too many things conveniently going his way, but are completely happy to give Joker a pass. At least Zemo had a proper motivation other than "oh, aren't I crazy?" Also, Bale wasn't a very good Batman in my opinion and his bat voice seemed to get more and more unintentionally hilarious as the movie went on. I also never understood why the action scenes in Dark Knight were so heavily praised. I never thought for one second the Batman looked like he could take on more than one person at a time and I don't think Nolan has any idea what he's doing when it comes to fight scenes. Another thing I didn't care for in the Dark Knight was the tone. It took itself way to seriously for a superhero in my opinion and made the actual silly moments (There's always going to be a ton of silly moments in any super hero movie) stand out like a sore thumb. There's a scene where Dent and Jim Gordon are talking to each other and Batman is standing there looking like the goofiest thing in the entire universe. I do like the Dark Knight, but I'd say there's at least ten mcu movies bettter than it and quite a few DC movies as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2018 22:53:14 GMT
I disagree with the notion that Nolan's Batman couldn't exist alongside other DC characters. The true genius of the MCU is that they allow the solo characters to exist in their stories with their own respective tones and styles. If you showed someone The Winter Soldier they may tell you that version of Cap is too grounded to exist alongside Thanos and Thor, but obviously he can and does. I think the same could've applied to Bale's Batman...Also, Batman Begins is a very comic book-y movie and could've been the perfect start to a DCU. And TDK and TDKR too, while certainly more grounded, have their share of comic bookiness as well. The DCU should've used Bale IMO.Now... All those points being made... DANCE OFF! YOU AND ME, BRO! ROUND TWO!!!!!!!!!$&@
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Jul 27, 2018 0:57:23 GMT
The answer why TDK is commonly appreciated as a cinematic masterwork while none of the MCU films are, is quite simple: TDK has genuine artistic merit. That is not just expressed by indicators such as Oscar awards and sitting on 4 of the best films ever since a decade: TDK has a relevant, deep and original story about the human condition and its corruption; with the Joker as Id, Bats as Superego and Dent as Ego that is torn between these extreme poles and crumbles. It's about the straining of society and civilization by terroristic and anarchic elements and vigilantes, the state of laws as symbolized by Dent crumbles and gets brutalized and corrupted. What artistically valuable story does any MCU film have? I haven't seen it yet. These are well produced junk food, not food for the mind. The only challengers are films like Logan, Watchmen, TDK Returns (Miller), X1, WW and the prototype classic Superman - and most of these do not come too close either. To clarify really quick, I don't think the first Avengers film and Infinity War tops The Dark Knight on artistic merits but as a comic adaption. They don't necessarily tackle major human themes, which is fine. All great films don't need to always have a theme to it. I think The Avengers tops TDK for being one of the first successful superheroes assemble film and Infinity War for going all out and building it up for 10 years and delivering one of the most compelling story and villains since Heath Ledger's Joker and even rivals his performance with a slight nuance to it. Thanos was a refresher from megalomaniac villains, or world-domination villains or tragic villains, or revenge-seeking villains, or "just for the evulzs" villains like the Joker. He was just a guy with the goal that had nefarious intentions and he succeeded and then just walked away. He didn't care for ruling. It was refreshing. On the other hand though, ... Winter Soldier and Civil War both have artistic merits and good character depths and good themes you can really analyze and break down, particularly good vs. right, utilitarianism vs. deontology, government surveillance vs. oversight, all relevant to the human condition in a somewhat original way. The Winter Soldier shows how corruption and extremism poisoned an organization until it was unsalvageable. It also lays out Cap’s principled, right-and-wrong mentality with the complexities of the surveillance state and political espionage, which even by today's standard is a political hot topic. And Civil War continues that, but slightly adjusted, covering government oversight and collateral damage and accountability, but within a superhero world, but even then with world's power and military and the collateral damage they leave (drone strikes), is still a political hot point today too. And with Cap against Stark in an ideological conflict, rather than it being a good-versus-evil story, it's a good-versus-right in which both sides have sound arguments behind them where neither of them are necessarily wrong or bad on the surface, but their actions in pursuit of their respective ideals become questionable. And that leads to another lesser more vaguer theme, but family breaking down. To quote Zemo, "An empire toppled by its enemies can rise again. But one which crumbles from within? That's dead forever."These are all very much strong themes with related to the human conditions. Here's the thing though...They are also comic book movies as well and embrace the comic elements to them, which a lot get hung up on, especially with any type of humor to it and you automatically label it as silly and fail to see the real message behind them. It's just more subtle and subdued and not on the nose like The Dark Knight does it and that's why Civil War and The Winter Soldier really top The Dark Knight. Nolan did everything in his power (and he did successfully too without being pretentious) to make it not look like a comic book movie but more of a thriller/psychological movie.
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Post by twothousandonemark on Jul 27, 2018 2:49:14 GMT
Not topped TDK's adult maturity, frankly because Nolan aced it, hit a grand slam, etc. And yet, mass audiences aren't craving that either. Recall the 00's were tonally in that mode, TDK was in part a creation of its time. Batman Begins took the 90's era Batman franchise & erased it from existence. TDK was merely its deep dive sensational follow up. Besides, MCU & everyone else probably realizes how strong a gravitational pull TDK had, to attempt to copy would be folly.
MCU's villains are an interesting study in the ether. Loki was originally laughed at being so weak, esp when we knew the likes of Thanos was literally being teased back in the day. Nowadays, Loki has (esp for me) become cinematic CBM villainy 101. Thanos of course delivered the goods by not simply being a one dimensional monster. Both, and no one else, can ever contend with Batman's rogue's gallery done right.
Having said that, the MCU's slow burn of character development has been excellent. Not only do more & more MCU films pave for more drama, they greatly & most impressively so, enhance the films which came earlier. Iron Man was fun in 2008. CA First Avenger was fascinating for 2011. The Avengers made both seem fun. Age of Ultron & Civil War turned the Stark-Rogers dichotomy into the MCU's crown jewel of character study. Now watching those 2008 & 2011 films respectively, among others, shines all new light. MCU rewards for both following along initially, and for retroactively re-watching. That's spectacular.
As it is, my top CBM are: 1. Superman 2. The Dark Knight 3. Age of Ultron 4. Infinity War 5. The Avengers
That's pretty much 3 eras with the 90's drivel, & colourful Spider-Man/X-Men early 00's unable to fully compete.
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Post by charzhino on Jul 27, 2018 10:02:31 GMT
Because that particular formula brings out the best in plot, character and story. Thats why dramas win big awards. And that's why BvS fell flat on it's face when they did that with Superman. Not all superhero characters can go that route. BvS flopped because it was a poor script. Not because it tried to be more serious. Batman by nature is a dark character.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Jul 27, 2018 12:44:56 GMT
And that's why BvS fell flat on it's face when they did that with Superman. Not all superhero characters can go that route. BvS flopped because it was a poor script. Not because it tried to be more serious. Batman by nature is a dark character. But Superman isn't, which they did the same thing with his character and look how that turned out
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 27, 2018 13:57:50 GMT
TDK is overrated. Batman Begins was better.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 27, 2018 17:43:41 GMT
Not being a moron. I honestly believe that Dark Knight is still a better movie than any that MCU has put out.
The one that comes closest IMO is Iron Man, which curiously enough is the one that was released earlier the same summer. A GREAT year overall for CBM's.
Both movies are about a man's soul. About what he is willing to do, the punishment he is willing to take, the changes to his own life he is willing to make, to defend the innocent and fight for what's right. Very few other CBM's plumb such depths. I know some folks will think I'm crazy, but I even rank Dark Knight Rises as better than MCU movies as it also deals with such deep and heady issues.
Dark Knight is the high water mark by which all CBM's can be judged. A movie that is at once faithful to the source material, exciting in its own right and offers a deep examination of character as well.
However, two other movies that deserve honorable mentions are Avengers and Avengers: Infinity War... Those because of the sheer ambitious nature of bringing together separate franchises and huge casts in order to create the first true shared universe. No one can deny the sheer size and scope of both those movies. They are also modern day masterpieces.
Another honorable mention should go to Superman: The Movie. As far as being faithful to the source material and true to character... it all starts there.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 27, 2018 17:56:51 GMT
I'd say all the Captain America and Avengers movies so far have been better the Dark Knight in almost ev.... And that's where I stopped reading and started laughing.
Then I thought...
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