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Post by CrepedCrusader on Aug 1, 2018 14:35:32 GMT
I'm an atheist, so I don't see confession as much more than a way for people to ease their conscience about bad things they've done. But let's just say, for the sake of argument, that there is a higher being hearing confessions and forgiving sins. There is still a glaring problem I see with the way some people use it. I would think that a large part of receiving forgiveness would be a genuine realization that what you've done is bad (not "I'm confessing because I know there's a rule against what I've done", but rather "I'm confessing because I feel bad for doing this thing"), and a real desire on the part of the confessor to avoid doing that thing again. But some people don't really feel all that bad about what they've done, and know very well that they are going to continue doing it. An example: I read an interview with a porn star once in which she talked about how she was a devout Catholic. She said that she knew God forgave her because she confessed every Sunday. But if that confession is made with full knowledge that she has no plans to change her behavior, why would God be forgiving?
Likeswise, over the years I've read articles where they'll talk to people involved in narco trafficking, and again, people are like, "Sure, I behead people who stand in the way of me pushing my drugs...but I always tell God I'm sorry, so I'm pretty sure I'll go to heaven."
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 1, 2018 15:20:29 GMT
Yes confession and repentance is supposed to ease one's guilty conscience in order to receive forgiveness.
This is not exactly an epiphany regarding it's intent.
The reasons why people seek it is theirs alone or simply our conjectures.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Aug 1, 2018 16:38:57 GMT
During the Middle Ages, the get-out-of-jail-free card was called an "indulgence". To obtain an indulgence, one had to preform some redeeming act. The indulgence was a written document which (I believe) could be transferred, which led to cash-for-sins. In some cases, a church donation was the "redeeming act".
In effect, isn't that what Jimmy Swaggart offers? Gimme one thousand dollars and God will repay you ten-fold.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 1, 2018 16:48:33 GMT
During the Middle Ages, the get-out-of-jail-free card was called an "indulgence". To obtain an indulgence, one had to preform some redeeming act. The indulgence was a written document which (I believe) could be transferred, which led to cash-for-sins. In some cases, a church donation was the "redeeming act". In effect, isn't that what Jimmy Swaggart offers? Gimme one thousand dollars and God will repay you ten-fold. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence
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Post by kls on Aug 2, 2018 0:11:58 GMT
The Catholic church calls the sacrament Reconciliation. If you have no intention of changing sinful ways I fail to see what one would be reconciling.
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Post by mslo79 on Aug 6, 2018 12:41:49 GMT
That person has a big surprise waiting for her on the other side as she will likely see hell (unless she repents before it's too late) as she's living in grave sin with no true desire to stop. that's a red flag. because if one is trying to stop serious sin and has a slip up, God is more likely to forgive that but if you have no desire to stop something He clearly considers serious sin, your risk of hell goes up quite a bit. it's not a risk you want to take considering the suffering in hell greatly exceeds even the worst kind of pain here on earth (this is not a exaggeration either) and it's for eternity. some might think that no one deserves hell for eternity but from what I have read once someone ends up in hell by rejecting Jesus Christ (basically those who die in a state of mortal sin) they are full of hate etc to the point they simply cannot stand God even though they are suffering greatly etc. basically going to confession is pointless if you have no desire to repent and avoid serious sin like that. plus, if she's receiving communion she's just drawing down more punishment upon herself. basically the more grave sins one commits the lower of a spot in hell they go. the reverse is also true in that the more holy one becomes here on earth before they die the higher of a place they will receive in Heaven. NOTE: I need to add this... everyone in heaven is perfectly happy but just some have more of that is all. I heard a priest put it like this... a cup full vs a bucket full. both are full but one has more of it. sort of the reverse in hell in that even the "best" places in hell are suffering beyond comprehension but it can be further amplified the more vile etc a person is here on earth. so basically for those who end up refusing Jesus and to refuse to change their sinful lives here on earth before they die it would be better if they die at a younger age than at a older age as to save them from getting a lower spot in hell because had they lived longer they would have gravely sinned even more and more. so it's sort like a act of mercy in a way. p.s. plus, ill bet she's likely not praying on a regular(as in daily) basis either which is just going to make things that much more difficult for her to avoid serious sin. that's one area a lot of Christians neglect is regular prayer (as in daily prayer) as that's not optional if one is going to grow closer to God and avoid sin etc. prayer gives us grace from God to help resist sin and to live a more holy life. I strongly recommend praying The Holy Rosary daily as that's the highest form of personal prayer there is.
as for indulgences... there are partial and plenary indulgences. partial removes some of the temporal punishment due to sin where as plenary removes ALL temporal punishment due to sin. but the catch with plenary indulgences is... you can't have attachment to any kind of sin, even small ones otherwise it's only a partial indulgence. so basically it's quite difficult to obtain a plenary indulgence since the vast majority of us are probably attached to some small sin at the least.
but if one was to truly obtain a plenary indulgence... then say one dies shortly after without committing any further sin, they go straight to heaven instead of purgatory like I suspect most people, assuming they don't end up in hell, will end up after death. because one has to be perfectly pure to enter heaven. but don't worry too much as if one is in purgatory, you are eventually guaranteed Heaven.
so given the example with the female in porn in the topic... say she does repent and change her ways and God forgives her in confession, she will be restored to God's friendship (i.e. she will be back in a state of grace), but she still has to make up for the sins she committed either in this life(through penance or suffering etc) or the next(Purgatory) before eventually reaching Heaven. so even once God forgives you in confession there is still temporal punishment due to sin.
p.s. also, with baptism... say for example, one grows up and has never been baptized into the faith and they turn into a murderer etc and say a decade or two passes and they finally want to come into the faith (like sincerely) and then get baptized. well, baptism completely removes all sin and the temporal punishment due to them which means say in that situation with that person being baptized and say they were to die shortly after without committing any more sins, they would go straight to heaven. now someone might think something like, 'well, that's great. ill just wait til later in life and get baptized' etc. but that's generally a bad idea because no one knows when they are going to die as it might be too late as it's always best to get baptized as soon as possible. but for me, since I was baptized as a infant that complete removal of sin and punishment due to sin only works once with baptism. so in my case any sins I commit I am going to have to pay the price for with temporal punishment etc.
a little story about Dutch Schultz (1901-1935), who was a gangster, and basically converted...
but obviously... these are exceptions to the norm. because someone who crosses a certain point of vileness etc it's that much less likely they will come back into the light.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Aug 6, 2018 17:26:07 GMT
That person has a big surprise waiting for her on the other side as she will likely see hell (unless she repents before it's too late) as she's living in grave sin with no true desire to stop. that's a red flag. ... She's in for a larger surprise than you realize. She's gonna be looking up at the dirt and grass while worms decompose her body. Come to think of it, we all have that same surprise waiting. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2018 19:06:31 GMT
I'm an atheist, so I don't see confession as much more than a way for people to ease their conscience about bad things they've done. But let's just say, for the sake of argument, that there is a higher being hearing confessions and forgiving sins. There is still a glaring problem I see with the way some people use it. I would think that a large part of receiving forgiveness would be a genuine realization that what you've done is bad (not "I'm confessing because I know there's a rule against what I've done", but rather "I'm confessing because I feel bad for doing this thing"), and a real desire on the part of the confessor to avoid doing that thing again. But some people don't really feel all that bad about what they've done, and know very well that they are going to continue doing it. An example: I read an interview with a porn star once in which she talked about how she was a devout Catholic. She said that she knew God forgave her because she confessed every Sunday. But if that confession is made with full knowledge that she has no plans to change her behavior, why would God be forgiving? I believe the official position is that he wouldn't - if you're not showing repentance for your sins and making an effort not to repeat them, then god won't forgive. Of course, like anything in religion individuals or groups sometimes have a different take on it. I've little doubt the woman honestly felt that she was operating within the rules, or had genuinely deceived herself into thinking that she was. You see that kind of behaviour in people all the time. My favourite is when you see a car that's parked in some horribly illegal way so that the person can go into a shop or something. And they've put their hazard lights on. Somehow, in their minds, the fact that they "won't be long" and they've put their hazard light on means that they're not actually breaking the law and don't deserve to get a ticket. It's really just a rationalisation so that they can do something immensely selfish and avoid feeling any guilt about it. Humans are fantastic at that kind of thing. Hell, a variant of it is probably why we invented confession (and religion) in the first place. "I did something bad, but I'm sorry for it - and I've had the magic words said by the priest, so it's okay." Whole societies engage in this. Nations whose population is like 80% christian, a religion which has "thou shalt not kill" as a pretty important rule... but they're happy to engage in wars on a near constant basis. Why? They come up with reasons why it was okay to ignore the rule. "Oh it didn't mean kill, it meant murder, and it's only murder if I admit that it is. Which I don't. So I'm fine." |
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Post by drystyx on Aug 6, 2018 19:38:27 GMT
It's quite easy to misinterpret "repentance", and "confession" is actually the incorrect direction for Christian repentance, for repentance that acknowledges the Holy Ghost.
That's because "confession" is an outward "worldly" "symptom", and not a "cure".
The confession is simply what is considered "repentance" by today's standards.
Feeling bad, or feeling wrong in what we call the "conscience" is not what was originally called "repentance" in Hebrew and Greek.
The original word was more akin to what we think of as "RELENTING" instead of what we think of as "repenting" today.
"Relenting" means an actual attempt to seek the Holy Ghost, to actually "hate" the world of the Devil and "love" the superior world and superior Universe of the good God of the all good, all knowing, all wise, all loving, etc. Holy Ghost, in whose Universe we crave to be a part of.
Confession is emptiness. It says nothing of what we aspire to be in soul and spirit. It only says we shed crocodile tears, because that's what it is. As you note, a man can spend all day abusing people, confess it at night, shed tears as though he's sorry, and then do the same thing the next day.
We experience in the flesh right now. It's scientifically proven we aren't matter or energy, and also proven we're souls or spirits that read meters of processes of matter and energy. The fact that we're imprisoned proves there is a supernatural power equivalent to an evil prison warden that is undeniably sadistic and determined to lie, cheat, steal, kill, and destroy each "prisoner", over billions just in human beings living today. There's absolutely no statistic to rival that in terms of proof of a "non benevolent cognitive supernatural evil force", no statistic ever to match that. The materialist is a retarded moron, by definition. That doesn't mean an atheist is, just a materialist.
So, since we experience in the flesh, and are forced to "read the meters" by the inferior senses we possess, we have little power to change much of what we do. We can't force ourselves to stop coughing in smoke filled rooms, for example. We do have the power to not fill the room with smokes out of sheer self righteousness and sadistic superiority.
I'll take a simple example. Lets say I am about to be evicted if I don't pay rent, and I work all the jobs I can to try to do it, but can't pay the rent. And so I get help from an agency to help pay the rent. I would want to pay it back, but probably will never be able to do so, without more outside help that would allow me the stewardship to have a resource to have the means to do so. There is absolutely nothing in the power of the individual to do so on his or her own, because of capitalism and democracy. The individual can only help others to have such means. I cannot have a business if everyone in the city conspires to "not buy" from me. Boycotts are the way of Western culture. Not the ones we hear about, but the unspoken ones that are incurred by demons.
Now, lets say I refuse to give a good word for another person that would allow that person to have the means to get the resources to pay rent. Lets say the tycoon in charge of a company asks me if "Jonah" can be trusted to be head of the department of Ninevah in his company, and I decide Jonah is too obstinate to do so, and Jonah loses out, and stays in poverty, and stays in my situation of needing help for rent.
So, if I "confess" that I keep him from this opportunity, I'm saying nothing. I may even pity him for not being able to pay rent, or for being evicted and having to sit out in the Sun all day. That's meaningless. It's not relenting. Because I did play God in making the decision, without really knowing if I was an expert in what he would do.
Now, if I truly repent, it means I relent, and I try to find the tycoon and say, "Hey, look, I don't know if Jonah is really obstinate. I can't say that he's unworthy". I try to stop playing God with other people's lives. That's relenting, and biblical repenting.
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Post by mslo79 on Aug 7, 2018 6:20:49 GMT
Rodney FarberFor those who end up in hell, they would prefer that option instead.
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