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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 13, 2018 12:49:13 GMT
It does make sense from within the teaching and you haven't provided a plot hole just by saying it doesn't make sense to you. That would just mean you don't get it. Explain how it works ontologically from within the teaching then. I said it wasn't one.
I was referring to the why it matters if Jesus sinned, not on the philosophical dilemma you keep refusing to bring out.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 13, 2018 12:55:38 GMT
Explain how it works ontologically from within the teaching then. I said it wasn't one.
I was referring to the why it matters if Jesus sinned, not on the philosophical dilemma you keep refusing to bring out.
"It wasn't one"? You mean not ontological, I guess? If so, you obviously don't understand what that term refers to. In other words, whether you think "Jesus died for our sins" picks out something that really happened or whether you think it's just a fiction of some sort, there would have to be some way (in the real world or in the fiction) that it works. In other words, just how the action of dying has a particular effect on other people. So Jesus dies, and then what happens? What's the next event in the (fictional) world that was caused by him dying, and how exactly does that work in terms of causality? |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 13, 2018 12:59:57 GMT
I said it wasn't one.
I was referring to the why it matters if Jesus sinned, not on the philosophical dilemma you keep refusing to bring out.
"It wasn't one"? You mean not ontological, I guess? If so, you obviously don't understand what that term refers to. In other words, whether you think "Jesus died for our sins" picks out something that really happened or whether you think it's just a fiction of some sort, there would have to be some way (in the real world or in the fiction) that it works. In other words, just how the action of dying has a particular effect on other people. So Jesus dies, and then what happens? What's the next event in the (fictional) world that was caused by him dying, and how exactly does that work in terms of causality? Ontological can be applied a few ways. Since I repeatedly referred to it in the common notion of philosophy, I assumed you were smart enough to figure that out. It's not a philosophical issue until you say it's one.
Are you simply asking in the most convoluted way possible why Jesus being sinless is important?
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Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 13, 2018 13:04:54 GMT
"It wasn't one"? You mean not ontological, I guess? If so, you obviously don't understand what that term refers to. In other words, whether you think "Jesus died for our sins" picks out something that really happened or whether you think it's just a fiction of some sort, there would have to be some way (in the real world or in the fiction) that it works. In other words, just how the action of dying has a particular effect on other people. So Jesus dies, and then what happens? What's the next event in the (fictional) world that was caused by him dying, and how exactly does that work in terms of causality? Ontological can be applied a few ways. Since I repeatedly referred to it in the common notion of philosophy, I assumed you were smart enough to figure that out. It's not a philosophical issue until you say it's one.
Are you simply asking in the most convoluted way possible why Jesus being sinless is important?
I just explained it in other words above: " there would have to be some way (in the real world or in the fiction) that it works. In other words, just how the action of dying has a particular effect on other people. So Jesus dies, and then what happens? What's the next event in the (real or fictional) world that was caused by him dying, and how exactly does that work in terms of causality?" |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 13, 2018 16:36:59 GMT
Yes, from the outside of the religion.
From within, it's a rule set.
So in Judaism and Christianity sin leads to death and also leads to an imperfect mode of redemption through sacrifice. That's not a something up for debate in relation to other philosophies as if it's a hypothesis.
However, if ones want to debate on the assumption the doctrine isn't true, then have at it.
The rules are still an ideal or concept, based on what the religion believes in. You would have to give me some logical and reasonable explanation as to what that rule set means 'within' that religion and what makes it true to make it understandable and resonant using common sense? If you can't, then the belief in itself is not real and neither is the sin.
I might also add, that regardless of sin or no sin, death is still an absolute and the only thing that is. This goes back to what I said though.
You would be the one that determines what is reasonable and understandable and thus trying to prove that notion to you is irrelevant and especially when it makes perfect sense within the religion, it's followers, & even some who don't actually believe in it or have negative opinions toward it.
It will never be my job to convince you of something I believe unless you can show me the rulebook for that.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 13, 2018 17:09:46 GMT
CoolJGS☺Your lack of even making an attempt is typical, by the way. I actually can't recall even one time that someone tried to explain what I asked about (re there would have to be some way (in the real world or in the fiction) that it works. In other words, just how the action of dying has a particular effect on other people. So Jesus dies, and then what happens? What's the next event in the (fictional) world that was caused by him dying, and how exactly does that work in terms of causality? ).
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 13, 2018 17:11:11 GMT
CoolJGS☺ Your lack of even making an attempt is typical, by the way. I actually can't recall even one time that someone tried to explain what I asked about (re there would have to be some way (in the real world or in the fiction) that it works. In other words, just how the action of dying has a particular effect on other people. So Jesus dies, and then what happens? What's the next event in the (fictional) world that was caused by him dying, and how exactly does that work in terms of causality? ).  |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 13, 2018 17:16:02 GMT
CoolJGS☺ Your lack of even making an attempt is typical, by the way. I actually can't recall even one time that someone tried to explain what I asked about (re there would have to be some way (in the real world or in the fiction) that it works. In other words, just how the action of dying has a particular effect on other people. So Jesus dies, and then what happens? What's the next event in the (fictional) world that was caused by him dying, and how exactly does that work in terms of causality? ). well, is it because you have no idea how it's supposed to work? |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 13, 2018 17:24:04 GMT
Ontological can be applied a few ways. Since I repeatedly referred to it in the common notion of philosophy, I assumed you were smart enough to figure that out. It's not a philosophical issue until you say it's one.
Are you simply asking in the most convoluted way possible why Jesus being sinless is important?
I just explained it in other words above: " there would have to be some way (in the real world or in the fiction) that it works. In other words, just how the action of dying has a particular effect on other people. So Jesus dies, and then what happens? What's the next event in the (real or fictional) world that was caused by him dying, and how exactly does that work in terms of causality?" Because you are being particularly whining today, I will answer.
The notion of "real world" is varied based on whether you believe the teachings, so we will remove that since we can assume you don't believe a lick of it. You had mentioned anyway that this should work even if it's fiction so let's test you out on that.
So we are going to discuss the plot of the Bible. In the "fictional" world of the Bible, God set a standard that to gain eternal life, one needs to not sin. If you sin, you die eventually unless something can repair you.
Are you still with me?
In order to atone for this sinfulness, God's people would first need to be aware that they were sinful which is why there was a sytem set up for sacrifice for atonement.
Animals, being inferior to humans, could ever be an equivalent sacrifice. Imperfect humans, while better than animals.
A ransom sacrifice is the notion that there is a corresponding price for anything...At least up to human standards. Animals cold do the trick temporarily, but salvation would require permanence.
The only permanent solution would be to replace a perfect man with another perfect man. That's where Jesus comes into the picture. He is the only human ever capable of redeeming mankind back to a way that would qualify them for salvation. If he sinned, then someone drunk uncle would be just as good a sacrifice as him.
I can only assume this is not good enough so I await the opportunity to respond to yours or any others fake plot holes.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 13, 2018 17:47:16 GMT
I just explained it in other words above: " there would have to be some way (in the real world or in the fiction) that it works. In other words, just how the action of dying has a particular effect on other people. So Jesus dies, and then what happens? What's the next event in the (real or fictional) world that was caused by him dying, and how exactly does that work in terms of causality?" Because you are being particularly whining today, I will answer.
The notion of "real world" is varied based on whether you believe the teachings, so we will remove that since we can assume you don't believe a lick of it. You had mentioned anyway that this should work even if it's fiction so let's test you out on that.
So we are going to discuss the plot of the Bible. In the "fictional" world of the Bible, God set a standard that to gain eternal life, one needs to not sin. If you sin, you die eventually unless something can repair you.
Are you still with me?
In order to atone for this sinfulness, God's people would first need to be aware that they were sinful which is why there was a sytem set up for sacrifice for atonement.
Animals, being inferior to humans, could ever be an equivalent sacrifice. Imperfect humans, while better than animals.
A ransom sacrifice is the notion that there is a corresponding price for anything...At least up to human standards. Animals cold do the trick temporarily, but salvation would require permanence.
The only permanent solution would be to replace a perfect man with another perfect man. That's where Jesus comes into the picture. He is the only human ever capable of redeeming mankind back to a way that would qualify them for salvation. If he sinned, then someone drunk uncle would be just as good a sacrifice as him.
I can only assume this is not good enough so I await the opportunity to respond to yours or any others fake plot holes.
What I'm asking about is how it's supposed to work--basically in terms of the mechanisms of it. Is it simply by fiat of God? And it's essentially arbitrary? Or is there some reason that Jesus dying can count as a "ransom sacrifice" other than an arbitrary fiat of God saying that it will count? |
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