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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 3, 2017 18:19:44 GMT
Well you don't look at everybody who has serious questions about it and call them bigots; Just look at this thread. How many people are quick to try and demonize even questioning it? I think there's some genuine bigotry on this thread from others, but you at least have stayed civil and I'm happy to answer your questions in a civil manner too. Surgery itself is just a part of transition (usually the last part) and some trans people don't even avail of it. For those that do, there are a variety of reasons. For some it's so they can take fewer hormone pills (thereby avoiding health complications there). For some it's to pass better so they encounter less bigotry. Some need to do it for legal reasons (eg some countries won't let you change your ID documents until you've had surgery. And for some, their dysphoria doesn't dissipate until they've had surgery. So in those senses, yes it does solve things. All of these would be problems that would remain without surgery. What is a functional member of the opposite sex? Really the only thing trans people can't do, that cis people can is conceive children and produce hormones naturally. The same is true of post-menopausal women. Do women stop being women post-menopause? Which is if you think about it, more important than chromosomes etc. Think of a woman you know. Do you think she is a woman because you know her chromosomes to be XX or do you think her chromosomes are probably XX because of how she looks? At any rate there is scientific (if not conclusive) evidence that trans people' brains behave more typically of the opposite sex, so you could argue whatever they look like, or what their chromosomes are, they are already at least partly the gender they claim to be. Research has shown that transitioning (which may or may not involve surgery) eases gender dysphoria. So yes, it does. It's also been found to be more effective for severe cases of gender dysphoria than other treatments such as therapy to make the sufferer accept their assigned gender. Couldn't you say the same of make-up, or wearing nice clothes or dying your hair? Some people just want to look a certain way. Well "who you are" is a confusing thing in itself. You are how you feel, at least to an extent, no? But even that aside, suppose you are right - telling someone to accept "who they are" has proven ineffective with severe cases. If you're actually trying to help these people, then shouldn't you give them the treatment that best alleviates their suffering, whether you think it's technically a lie or not? Wuuuuuuuuuuuuuurds |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Apr 3, 2017 18:24:25 GMT
But what is the solution? Vague truisms like "you have to accept yourself" don't help anyone. Well you don't look at everybody who has serious questions about it and call them bigots. Just look at this thread. How many people are quick to try and demonize even questioning it?
What I would ask, is does surgery solve anything? It doesn't make you a functioning member of the other sex, it just gives you the appearance of being one. Does this solve the transgender persons actual concern? I would ask the same question of breast implants. Isn't it just covering an insecurity? Why don't we support accepting who you are instead of surgical lies?
I don't know what the percentage would be, but yes, in many cases surgery solves things. The person in question feels better about themselves, feels existentially authentic, has confidence they never had before, etc. Re "accepting who you are" then why get a haircut? Why shave? Why straighten your teeth? etc. Are those folks not "accepting who they are"? |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 3, 2017 18:33:00 GMT
Well you don't look at everybody who has serious questions about it and call them bigots. Just look at this thread. How many people are quick to try and demonize even questioning it?
What I would ask, is does surgery solve anything? It doesn't make you a functioning member of the other sex, it just gives you the appearance of being one. Does this solve the transgender persons actual concern? I would ask the same question of breast implants. Isn't it just covering an insecurity? Why don't we support accepting who you are instead of surgical lies?
I don't know what the percentage would be, but yes, in many cases surgery solves things. The person in question feels better about themselves, feels existentially authentic, has confidence they never had before, etc. Re "accepting who you are" then why get a haircut? Why shave? Why straighten your teeth? etc. Are those folks not "accepting who they are"? Ahhhh, but feeling better about something does not necessarily solve anything. That's how kids get fat, and how people get addicted to drugs. Have you actually solved anything or just enabled them?
Is getting a haircut or shaving comparable to elective surgery? Getting a haircut is like dressing for the occasion, and nothing more. Elective surgery doesn't make you the other sex, and you are still in possession of the psychological issues that led to that decision.
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Post by The Lost One on Apr 3, 2017 18:44:29 GMT
I think there's some genuine bigotry on this thread from others, but you at least have stayed civil and I'm happy to answer your questions in a civil manner too. Surgery itself is just a part of transition (usually the last part) and some trans people don't even avail of it. For those that do, there are a variety of reasons. For some it's so they can take fewer hormone pills (thereby avoiding health complications there). For some it's to pass better so they encounter less bigotry. Some need to do it for legal reasons (eg some countries won't let you change your ID documents until you've had surgery. And for some, their dysphoria doesn't dissipate until they've had surgery. So in those senses, yes it does solve things. All of these would be problems that would remain without surgery. What is a functional member of the opposite sex? Really the only thing trans people can't do, that cis people can is conceive children and produce hormones naturally. The same is true of post-menopausal women. Do women stop being women post-menopause? Which is if you think about it, more important than chromosomes etc. Think of a woman you know. Do you think she is a woman because you know her chromosomes to be XX or do you think her chromosomes are probably XX because of how she looks? At any rate there is scientific (if not conclusive) evidence that trans people' brains behave more typically of the opposite sex, so you could argue whatever they look like, or what their chromosomes are, they are already at least partly the gender they claim to be. Research has shown that transitioning (which may or may not involve surgery) eases gender dysphoria. So yes, it does. It's also been found to be more effective for severe cases of gender dysphoria than other treatments such as therapy to make the sufferer accept their assigned gender. Couldn't you say the same of make-up, or wearing nice clothes or dying your hair? Some people just want to look a certain way. Well "who you are" is a confusing thing in itself. You are how you feel, at least to an extent, no? But even that aside, suppose you are right - telling someone to accept "who they are" has proven ineffective with severe cases. If you're actually trying to help these people, then shouldn't you give them the treatment that best alleviates their suffering, whether you think it's technically a lie or not? Wuuuuuuuuuuuuuurds Come on, you're better than that. If that's how you're going to respond to people trying to answer your "honest" questions, it's no wonder people are taking you for a bigot. |
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Post by PanLeo on Apr 3, 2017 19:24:39 GMT
I realize this might offend some, but I mean to express that I honestly don't understand the support of being transgender.
I am a humanist, I support the ideas of freedom and life in general, and I fully support and completely understand the nature and lifestyle of gays and lesbians without question. I wish them all the happiness in the world and embrace them.
But being transgender is different. You're talking about not accepting what you are and trying to be something else. It's the opposite of why I support gay people. You're talking about surgery. You're talking about cutting off body parts to be something else. I really don't know how this isn't disturbing. Where is the line between that and a legitimate psychological problem?
And I honestly find it outrageous that people felt the need to give somebody like Jenner a woman of the year award. That's a joke right? There are great women out there accomplishing amazing things, and some guy who cut off his dick and put on a dress is the woman of the year? That's an outrage to women and their legitimate contributions to society. I am not sure why you had to announce yourself as a humanist. " You're talking about not accepting what you are and trying to be something else. " What's wrong with that? People want to be different people all the time so they change. When I was a kid I was a couch potato so I changed. Am I not excepting myself? Why is surgery to make yourself more like a woman or man imply someone has a psychological problem but not making your tits or arse bigger like some women do? It both involves surgery. I agree that was a joke. |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Apr 3, 2017 21:04:28 GMT
I don't know what the percentage would be, but yes, in many cases surgery solves things. The person in question feels better about themselves, feels existentially authentic, has confidence they never had before, etc. Re "accepting who you are" then why get a haircut? Why shave? Why straighten your teeth? etc. Are those folks not "accepting who they are"? Ahhhh, but feeling better about something does not necessarily solve anything. That's how kids get fat, and how people get addicted to drugs. Have you actually solved anything or just enabled them?
Is getting a haircut or shaving comparable to elective surgery? Getting a haircut is like dressing for the occasion, and nothing more. Elective surgery doesn't make you the other sex, and you are still in possession of the psychological issues that led to that decision.
What are the criteria for "solving something" in your view? |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 4, 2017 1:04:22 GMT
Why is surgery to make yourself more like a woman or man imply someone has a psychological problem but not making your tits or arse bigger like some women do? It both involves surgery. I would argue that it does actually. If you feel the need to surgically make your tits bigger, you've got some issues. |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 4, 2017 1:09:32 GMT
What are the criteria for "solving something" in your view? Depends on what's being fixed. In this case, thinking cutting off a functioning healthy body part, is a good idea. Perhaps agreeing that it might not be a good idea, is a good place to start.
Listen, are we just sort of going back and forth here not accomplishing anything, because if so I've gotten a little bored with this. If you have something particular to follow up with let me know.
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Post by Nostalgias4Geeks🌈 on Apr 4, 2017 8:04:25 GMT
Why is surgery to make yourself more like a woman or man imply someone has a psychological problem but not making your tits or arse bigger like some women do? It both involves surgery. I would argue that it does actually. If you feel the need to surgically make your tits bigger, you've got some issues. Why? Maybe someone likes bigger tits? Maybe someone likes pierced ears? Or green hair? Or plump lips? Who are you or anyone else to draw the line? How someone wants to look and the way it makes them feel is personal to them and pretty subjective. I might think circumcision is appalling, but hey, it's pretty much universally accepted here in the US. And the kid doesn't even get a choice. |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Apr 4, 2017 8:17:59 GMT
What are the criteria for "solving something" in your view? Depends on what's being fixed. In this case, thinking cutting off a functioning healthy body part, is a good idea. Perhaps agreeing that it might not be a good idea, is a good place to start.
Listen, are we just sort of going back and forth here not accomplishing anything, because if so I've gotten a little bored with this. If you have something particular to follow up with let me know.
Do you not believe that whether something is a good vs bad idea is subjective? |
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Post by Jonesy1 on Apr 4, 2017 8:41:34 GMT
I realize this might offend some, but I mean to express that I honestly don't understand the support of being transgender.
I am a humanist, I support the ideas of freedom and life in general, and I fully support and completely understand the nature and lifestyle of gays and lesbians without question. I wish them all the happiness in the world and embrace them.
But being transgender is different. You're talking about not accepting what you are and trying to be something else. It's the opposite of why I support gay people. You're talking about surgery. You're talking about cutting off body parts to be something else. I really don't know how this isn't disturbing. Where is the line between that and a legitimate psychological problem?
And I honestly find it outrageous that people felt the need to give somebody like Jenner a woman of the year award. That's a joke right? There are great women out there accomplishing amazing things, and some guy who cut off his dick and put on a dress is the woman of the year? That's an outrage to women and their legitimate contributions to society. I am not sure why you had to announce yourself as a humanist In order to feel superior. |
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Post by NishmatHaChalil on Apr 4, 2017 16:26:21 GMT
Come on, you're better than that. If that's how you're going to respond to people trying to answer your "honest" questions, it's no wonder people are taking you for a bigot. That sums up my reasons for playing a condescending role towards him. I see no point in continuing conversation with someone that pretends he’s only “asking questions”, but who is not even willing to read the data and counter-arguments that go against his beliefs. To be completely honest, I’m not sure this is the best way to act regarding his behavior, but I’m not willing to simply allow him to sell his ideas and pretend they are reasonable and OK without opposition either. By the way, I loved your logical summaries! If one could state that my exposition was too long for the common person, the same could not be said about yours. The same goes for your tone, which, unlike mine, was always respectful and equable. I'm not that good in explaining complex methodological systems to non-specialists or in keeping my patience with people that want to sell others non-scientific beliefs about science, but you, on the other hand, are great at this!  Whether they accept or not your arguments, I don't think there's any reason anymore to excuse ignoring them. And, as usual, I sincerely thank all the people who have invested their time posting here in order to inform the community about TG issues and argue against intolerance regarding them. Thank you! |
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Post by NishmatHaChalil on Apr 4, 2017 16:26:39 GMT
Trump-on-a-belly, has more common sense and insight than you would ever care to possess in your mutilated genitals. That is Kuato from Total Recall and was a revered mutant— Oh the irony in that term mutant!—and I would rather pay attention to a straight from the belly Trump, than an in denial, confused and pseudo intellectual narcissistic bore, that speaks in pretentious rhetoric and circular verbose terms attempting to win some headway, when in fact, you know jack squat. Well, at least you "TRY" to be cute, even when you do pass with honors at playing a fool. It would be nice to see them being fabulous in their wrong body Madame Mulva and not having psychiatrists and psychologists pandering to the others aspects of their delusional mental disorder, like their NPD and need to cut themselves up. I see this as very serious, and while most TG are not chronically mentally ill, so as not being able to function normally in society, their lack of acceptance of the body they are born into and then the need for others to accept them for becoming a fake biological gender, only negates the acceptance they won't have for themselves. How can they possibly expect for others to understand the extreme lengths of what they do to themselves, personal choice or not? That is just the same as a dark and negative individual who tattoos and pierces their whole body, including the whites of their eyes and then asking for others to understand why they did it. They are both severe behaviors, with body identity issues. TG's have erroneously latched onto the gay community, when they drag down genuine gay people who do appreciate and honor their gender and give out the wrong signals regarding what homosexuality represents, which is being sexually comfortable with a body that is familiar to ones own. Hah hah hah |
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 4, 2017 16:33:39 GMT
I am not sure why you had to announce yourself as a humanist In order to feel superior. No, it was because if he didn't preface his statement with those words, he would be accused of all kinds of prejudice or even worse… Being a Republican. This is what the far left does. You don't agree with them? You are racist, homophobic, Islamaphobic, or all of the above. |
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Post by deembastille on Apr 4, 2017 22:35:13 GMT
You have to wonder about the mentality of these people. Not David but their parents who decide to follow shit advice like this. What was she going to say when David was 14 and still an ironing board up there? Really? Do you really think your kids are that stupid? David was given hormones so he grew breasts. When he found out the truth he underwent a mastectomy  Mulva, I am talking in general. people do and say stupid shit to their kids and think that in general, the kids won't notice. Not talking about the tooth fairy or Santa. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 23:12:47 GMT
David was given hormones so he grew breasts. When he found out the truth he underwent a mastectomy Mulva, I am talking in general. people do and say stupid shit to their kids and think that in general, the kids won't notice. Not talking about the tooth fairy or Santa. His mother knew that when David was little he knew he was a boy but she was desperate for a solution as to what to do. She trusted the wrong person www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GhbVFjIaN0 |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 5, 2017 0:02:53 GMT
I would argue that it does actually. If you feel the need to surgically make your tits bigger, you've got some issues. Why? Maybe someone likes bigger tits? Maybe someone likes pierced ears? Or green hair? Or plump lips? Who are you or anyone else to draw the line? How someone wants to look and the way it makes them feel is personal to them and pretty subjective. I might think circumcision is appalling, but hey, it's pretty much universally accepted here in the US. And the kid doesn't even get a choice. Maybe somebody can't handle how they look?
It's not about what you like, it's about like what you are. Somehow people like yourself have totally forgotten that.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 5, 2017 0:04:12 GMT
Depends on what's being fixed. In this case, thinking cutting off a functioning healthy body part, is a good idea. Perhaps agreeing that it might not be a good idea, is a good place to start.
Listen, are we just sort of going back and forth here not accomplishing anything, because if so I've gotten a little bored with this. If you have something particular to follow up with let me know.
Do you not believe that whether something is a good vs bad idea is subjective? It's quite simple in this case.
You were born how you are. Enjoy it. Accept it. Love it.
I don't know why you're enabling people not to accept themselves.
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Post by Nostalgias4Geeks🌈 on Apr 5, 2017 9:11:11 GMT
Do you not believe that whether something is a good vs bad idea is subjective? It's quite simple in this case.
You were born how you are. Enjoy it. Accept it. Love it.
I don't know why you're enabling people not to accept themselves.
You were born how you are. Enjoy it. Accept it. Love it. ...but only if you're "transgender"... otherwise have at it champ! *breaks out the hair dye and colored contacts* |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Apr 5, 2017 11:02:34 GMT
Do you not believe that whether something is a good vs bad idea is subjective? It's quite simple in this case.
You were born how you are. Enjoy it. Accept it. Love it.
I don't know why you're enabling people not to accept themselves.
Presumably you see that as encompassing all of the changes that people go through as they develop, too? For example, changes in their body as they go through puberty? They're not born having gone through puberty, obviously, but they're born with the capacity to go through puberty in a particular manner, which is why, in combination with environmental factors, they go through puberty as they do. |
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Whether they accept or not your arguments, I don't think there's any reason anymore to excuse ignoring them.
