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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2017 17:51:14 GMT
What should be done about people who have Body Integrity Identity Disorder? Should we allow them to cut off limbs the way trans people do breasts and genitalia? I mean, they're not really hurting anyone, right? So why not let them cut off their limbs as they see fit? Yes, of course we should allow it. It certainly shouldn't be illegal. I would have no problem with it if there were various robotics in place to complete mundane tasks which may be possible in the future. Otherwise it seems unreasonable since a separate person (or many) will then have to be assigned to care for them once they become disabled. Then again, it might help create more work if there were a lack of jobs.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Mar 31, 2017 19:10:39 GMT
Per my views somebody mutilating their sexual organs should be discouraged, and enablers like you who think they can shout down objections by portraying them as simply bigoted, should be as well. Enablers, that's exactly what they are. And for what? Because they're afraid to hurt people's feelings? When it comes to people who want to prohibit the consensual choices that others can make, I'm not at all afraid to hurt their feelings, or even to physically hurt them if it comes down to them, say, incarcerating people for making consensual choices.
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 31, 2017 20:42:56 GMT
This is just sad to watch.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 31, 2017 22:01:33 GMT
It consists of knowing they have forever altered who they really are and just sort of dealing with it I suppose. I'm not going to suddenly say it's a great decision if that's what you mean. Sure, but I'd say if you're not regularly haranguing them then you are accepting it. Accepting something doesn't imply promoting it or even thinking that it's a good idea. It's just being at peace with it enough that you don't have to keep fighting against it in a situation like that. I'm not participating in picket lines if that's what you mean, but if anybody asks I'll tell them the person has serious issues that surgery isn't the solution for.
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Post by Cooper, the Golden Retriever on Apr 1, 2017 7:08:41 GMT
Can't tell if trolling, but transphobic would've been what you were meaning to say. She's obviously not homophobic if you read it. Transgender and homosexuality aren't related to one another. Correct, and Jenner's not even a typical transgender, since (s)he's not even a liberal, and she'[s been "outed" as a conservative.
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Post by deembastille on Apr 1, 2017 15:46:51 GMT
Can't tell if trolling, but transphobic would've been what you were meaning to say. She's obviously not homophobic if you read it. Transgender and homosexuality aren't related to one another. Correct, and Jenner's not even a typical transgender, since (s)he's not even a liberal, and she'[s been "outed" as a conservative. that's what I have always said... one doesn't automatically equate to the other. Just because you are a democrat doesn't mean you are a liberal. Just because you are gay doesn't mean you are a democrat OR a liberal. Just because you are a Mexican living in America doesn't mean you are in America illegally. My best friend at work is a gay republican who was clicking her heals when Trump was elected. She is also Hispanic. This is the great thing about or otherwise sucky country. you get to choose what sides you want to be on and you have a right to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 19:04:45 GMT
Good luck with trying to discourage them. Could someone discourage you from being a man? Don't you know that's how they feel only they were given the wrong body? It would be nice to see them being fabulous in their wrong body Madame Mulva and not having psychiatrists and psychologists pandering to the others aspects of their delusional mental disorder, like their NPD and need to cut themselves up. I see this as very serious, and while most TG are not chronically mentally ill, so as not being able to function normally in society, their lack of acceptance of the body they are born into and then the need for others to accept them for becoming a fake biological gender, only negates the acceptance they won't have for themselves.
How can they possibly expect for others to understand the extreme lengths of what they do to themselves, personal choice or not? That is just the same as a dark and negative individual who tattoos and pierces their whole body, including the whites of their eyes and then asking for others to understand why they did it. They are both severe behaviors, with body identity issues. TG's have erroneously latched onto the gay community, when they drag down genuine gay people who do appreciate and honor their gender and give out the wrong signals regarding what homosexuality represents, which is being sexually comfortable with a body that is familiar to ones own.
People can accept them or not, all I know is that they are extremely sad about having to live in the opposite gender's body than the one they feel most comfortable in. I support someone doing what they feel is best for them and their mental state. Last night I watched Mama June From Not to Hot and she had large amounts of skin and tissue removed from her extreme weight loss. People cut off parts of their body when they have a tummy tuck or breast reduction. I also know that a lot of male to female TGs opt to not have their penis altered
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Post by scabab on Apr 1, 2017 21:34:50 GMT
It's a mental illness, it's not really something you're supposed to "get".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 2:35:39 GMT
People can accept them or not, all I know is that they are extremely sad about having to live in the opposite gender's body than the one they feel most comfortable in. I support someone doing what they feel is best for them and their mental state. Last night I watched Mama June From Not to Hot and she had large amounts of skin and tissue removed from her extreme weight loss. People cut off parts of their body when they have a tummy tuck or breast reduction. I also know that a lot of male to female TGs opt to not have their penis altered They would still be living in the same body, regardless of having their genitals surgically altered. Those that still keep their penis, yet still identify as women, are they really TG then? I see someone like Jenner, as a narcissistic drag queen. What they do and how they feel about their body is theirs to deal with and if they want to be fake women or men, then that is their prerogative. There will be a consequence. It's the desperate need to have others accept and pander to how they believe they are living in the wrong body. Having a fake vagina or penis is not really going to change the fact that genetically and biologically, they are still either technically male or female. The self-loathing and self-hate, for having to do what they do to themselves is understandably difficult for most to comprehended. Being fun and fabulous, compared to having a mental disorder about how they perceive their body and wanting to become a phony gender through surgery, may not be interchangeable.
Having a tummy tuck, excess fat removal or even cosmetic surgery to alter how one looks physically, is not about gender reassignment. That is a different ballpark. Those having necessitated\required surgery, may be for the benefit of physical health and mobility issues, or even just to pander to plain vanity if facial cosmetic. I do agree that how one looks physically, can also benefit one's mental state; but with TG, it just doesn't seem to help or resolve how others view them, or how they may view themselves in the eyes of others. It's a sad but unfortunate truth.
I don't think it maters to some if they change their genitals since that's not what defines them. It's their brains that tell them what gender they are and what's the alternative? To live unhappily as the gender you were assigned at birth, even though you don't feel like a boy or a girl as the case may be? There's a case where this baby was mutilated during a botched circumcision and the doctor told the parents to raise him as a girl. But even as a toddler he knew he was a boy and tore off the dress he was wearing. It ended up causing him problems later in life and he eventually learned the truth. That's how it is for TGs. Dress them in boys or girls clothes as the gender they were born and they don't like how it feels, they feel trapped in the wrong body. I know we're never going to feel the same on this but it's okay, we're allowed to see things differently
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 3:39:57 GMT
I don't think it maters to some if they change their genitals since that's not what defines them. It's their brains that tell them what gender they are and what's the alternative? To live unhappily as the gender you were assigned at birth, even though you don't feel like a boy or a girl as the case may be? There's a case where this baby was mutilated during a botched circumcision and the doctor told the parents to raise him as a girl. But even as a toddler he knew he was a boy and tore off the dress he was wearing. It ended up causing him problems later in life and he eventually learned the truth. That's how it is for TGs. Dress them in boys or girls clothes as the gender they were born and they don't like how it feels, they feel trapped in the wrong body. I know we're never going to feel the same on this but it's okay, we're allowed to see things differently That is just absurd, telling parents to raise their son as a girl, due to a botched circumcision. This must have been some kind of experiment. A person is still going to know what they relate too and what they want and like. While I see societies construct of gender roles as taking precedence about how we should act and what we should wear according to our birth sex, it is still a game or set of rules which most communities play by and a child just has to learn this cold hard truth. It is not always going to pander to our whims and entitlements. An effeminate male may still suffer bully and teasing more so than those that aren't, but the line blurs when wanting to physically alter the body. Males that identify as female, are most of them sexually attracted to other males? That would just mean they are just overtly effeminate gay and fabulous, not necessarily transgender.
I have heard of males that became females and then got with other women as lesbians. That is just plain confused and f<>ked up, and I would say it borders on self-absorbed, narcissistic sexual gratification. They are so turned on by women, that they have to become one themselves. That is a sexual disorder in itself.
I agree, it was absurd. It was a doctor from Johns Hopkins. He thought that if you raise him as a girl he was too young to know the difference. I read the book, As Nature Made Him, about a Canadian man, David Reimer. He was a twin and the mother brought them in to be circumcised because their foreskins weren't retracting enough when they had to urinate. Well, some idiot decided to cauterize the foreskin and it burned off the entire penis. They didn't do the other boy's circumcision and the problem fixed itself. The mother became very depressed, she saw that David knew he was a boy. He was called Brenda. Both brother's ended up taking their own lives
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Post by deembastille on Apr 2, 2017 5:25:26 GMT
You have to wonder about the mentality of these people. Not David but their parents who decide to follow shit advice like this. What was she going to say when David was 14 and still an ironing board up there? Really? Do you really think your kids are that stupid?
I read the book Portrait of a Killer: Jack the Ripper: Case Closed by Patricia Cornwell and this reminds me of this book. Patricia mentioned how she was almost sure it was this guy Walter Sickert [turns out as the book was being printed/published she changed her mind]. The bit of evidence that I found intriguing and quite logical was the fact that when Walter was young [but old enough to remember] he had surgery on his groin to attempt to correct a congenital disorder [keep in mind the century -- ouch!] which I think was botched and apparently his nurse and mother were psychologically and verbally abusive to him and his father kind of disowned him as a son.
So Patricia's theory which made logical and psychological sense to me was that he was brought hating women as the only ones in his life were cruel to him. It made pretty perfect sense for him to seek out prostitutes and mutilate them and murder them the way he was mutilated when he was young.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 12:25:57 GMT
You have to wonder about the mentality of these people. Not David but their parents who decide to follow shit advice like this. What was she going to say when David was 14 and still an ironing board up there? Really? Do you really think your kids are that stupid? David was given hormones so he grew breasts. When he found out the truth he underwent a mastectomy
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Apr 3, 2017 14:05:47 GMT
Sure, but I'd say if you're not regularly haranguing them then you are accepting it. Accepting something doesn't imply promoting it or even thinking that it's a good idea. It's just being at peace with it enough that you don't have to keep fighting against it in a situation like that. I'm not participating in picket lines if that's what you mean, but if anybody asks I'll tell them the person has serious issues that surgery isn't the solution for. But what is the solution? Vague truisms like "you have to accept yourself" don't help anyone.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 3, 2017 14:41:10 GMT
I'm not participating in picket lines if that's what you mean, but if anybody asks I'll tell them the person has serious issues that surgery isn't the solution for. But what is the solution? Vague truisms like "you have to accept yourself" don't help anyone. Well you don't look at everybody who has serious questions about it and call them bigots. Just look at this thread. How many people are quick to try and demonize even questioning it?
What I would ask, is does surgery solve anything? It doesn't make you a functioning member of the other sex, it just gives you the appearance of being one. Does this solve the transgender persons actual concern? I would ask the same question of breast implants. Isn't it just covering an insecurity? Why don't we support accepting who you are instead of surgical lies?
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Apr 3, 2017 15:32:27 GMT
Well you don't look at everybody who has serious questions about it and call them bigots; Just look at this thread. How many people are quick to try and demonize even questioning it? I think there's some genuine bigotry on this thread from others, but you at least have stayed civil and I'm happy to answer your questions in a civil manner too. Surgery itself is just a part of transition (usually the last part) and some trans people don't even avail of it. For those that do, there are a variety of reasons. For some it's so they can take fewer hormone pills (thereby avoiding health complications there). For some it's to pass better so they encounter less bigotry. Some need to do it for legal reasons (eg some countries won't let you change your ID documents until you've had surgery. And for some, their dysphoria doesn't dissipate until they've had surgery. So in those senses, yes it does solve things. All of these would be problems that would remain without surgery. What is a functional member of the opposite sex? Really the only thing trans people can't do, that cis people can is conceive children and produce hormones naturally. The same is true of post-menopausal women. Do women stop being women post-menopause? Which is if you think about it, more important than chromosomes etc. Think of a woman you know. Do you think she is a woman because you know her chromosomes to be XX or do you think her chromosomes are probably XX because of how she looks? At any rate there is scientific (if not conclusive) evidence that trans people' brains behave more typically of the opposite sex, so you could argue whatever they look like, or what their chromosomes are, they are already at least partly the gender they claim to be. Research has shown that transitioning (which may or may not involve surgery) eases gender dysphoria. So yes, it does. It's also been found to be more effective for severe cases of gender dysphoria than other treatments such as therapy to make the sufferer accept their assigned gender. Couldn't you say the same of make-up, or wearing nice clothes or dying your hair? Some people just want to look a certain way. Well "who you are" is a confusing thing in itself. You are how you feel, at least to an extent, no? But even that aside, suppose you are right - telling someone to accept "who they are" has proven ineffective with severe cases. If you're actually trying to help these people, then shouldn't you give them the treatment that best alleviates their suffering, whether you think it's technically a lie or not?
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 3, 2017 18:19:44 GMT
Well you don't look at everybody who has serious questions about it and call them bigots; Just look at this thread. How many people are quick to try and demonize even questioning it? I think there's some genuine bigotry on this thread from others, but you at least have stayed civil and I'm happy to answer your questions in a civil manner too. Surgery itself is just a part of transition (usually the last part) and some trans people don't even avail of it. For those that do, there are a variety of reasons. For some it's so they can take fewer hormone pills (thereby avoiding health complications there). For some it's to pass better so they encounter less bigotry. Some need to do it for legal reasons (eg some countries won't let you change your ID documents until you've had surgery. And for some, their dysphoria doesn't dissipate until they've had surgery. So in those senses, yes it does solve things. All of these would be problems that would remain without surgery. What is a functional member of the opposite sex? Really the only thing trans people can't do, that cis people can is conceive children and produce hormones naturally. The same is true of post-menopausal women. Do women stop being women post-menopause? Which is if you think about it, more important than chromosomes etc. Think of a woman you know. Do you think she is a woman because you know her chromosomes to be XX or do you think her chromosomes are probably XX because of how she looks? At any rate there is scientific (if not conclusive) evidence that trans people' brains behave more typically of the opposite sex, so you could argue whatever they look like, or what their chromosomes are, they are already at least partly the gender they claim to be. Research has shown that transitioning (which may or may not involve surgery) eases gender dysphoria. So yes, it does. It's also been found to be more effective for severe cases of gender dysphoria than other treatments such as therapy to make the sufferer accept their assigned gender. Couldn't you say the same of make-up, or wearing nice clothes or dying your hair? Some people just want to look a certain way. Well "who you are" is a confusing thing in itself. You are how you feel, at least to an extent, no? But even that aside, suppose you are right - telling someone to accept "who they are" has proven ineffective with severe cases. If you're actually trying to help these people, then shouldn't you give them the treatment that best alleviates their suffering, whether you think it's technically a lie or not? Wuuuuuuuuuuuuuurds
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Post by Terrapin Station on Apr 3, 2017 18:24:25 GMT
But what is the solution? Vague truisms like "you have to accept yourself" don't help anyone. Well you don't look at everybody who has serious questions about it and call them bigots. Just look at this thread. How many people are quick to try and demonize even questioning it?
What I would ask, is does surgery solve anything? It doesn't make you a functioning member of the other sex, it just gives you the appearance of being one. Does this solve the transgender persons actual concern? I would ask the same question of breast implants. Isn't it just covering an insecurity? Why don't we support accepting who you are instead of surgical lies?
I don't know what the percentage would be, but yes, in many cases surgery solves things. The person in question feels better about themselves, feels existentially authentic, has confidence they never had before, etc. Re "accepting who you are" then why get a haircut? Why shave? Why straighten your teeth? etc. Are those folks not "accepting who they are"?
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 3, 2017 18:33:00 GMT
Well you don't look at everybody who has serious questions about it and call them bigots. Just look at this thread. How many people are quick to try and demonize even questioning it?
What I would ask, is does surgery solve anything? It doesn't make you a functioning member of the other sex, it just gives you the appearance of being one. Does this solve the transgender persons actual concern? I would ask the same question of breast implants. Isn't it just covering an insecurity? Why don't we support accepting who you are instead of surgical lies?
I don't know what the percentage would be, but yes, in many cases surgery solves things. The person in question feels better about themselves, feels existentially authentic, has confidence they never had before, etc. Re "accepting who you are" then why get a haircut? Why shave? Why straighten your teeth? etc. Are those folks not "accepting who they are"? Ahhhh, but feeling better about something does not necessarily solve anything. That's how kids get fat, and how people get addicted to drugs. Have you actually solved anything or just enabled them?
Is getting a haircut or shaving comparable to elective surgery? Getting a haircut is like dressing for the occasion, and nothing more. Elective surgery doesn't make you the other sex, and you are still in possession of the psychological issues that led to that decision.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Apr 3, 2017 18:44:29 GMT
I think there's some genuine bigotry on this thread from others, but you at least have stayed civil and I'm happy to answer your questions in a civil manner too. Surgery itself is just a part of transition (usually the last part) and some trans people don't even avail of it. For those that do, there are a variety of reasons. For some it's so they can take fewer hormone pills (thereby avoiding health complications there). For some it's to pass better so they encounter less bigotry. Some need to do it for legal reasons (eg some countries won't let you change your ID documents until you've had surgery. And for some, their dysphoria doesn't dissipate until they've had surgery. So in those senses, yes it does solve things. All of these would be problems that would remain without surgery. What is a functional member of the opposite sex? Really the only thing trans people can't do, that cis people can is conceive children and produce hormones naturally. The same is true of post-menopausal women. Do women stop being women post-menopause? Which is if you think about it, more important than chromosomes etc. Think of a woman you know. Do you think she is a woman because you know her chromosomes to be XX or do you think her chromosomes are probably XX because of how she looks? At any rate there is scientific (if not conclusive) evidence that trans people' brains behave more typically of the opposite sex, so you could argue whatever they look like, or what their chromosomes are, they are already at least partly the gender they claim to be. Research has shown that transitioning (which may or may not involve surgery) eases gender dysphoria. So yes, it does. It's also been found to be more effective for severe cases of gender dysphoria than other treatments such as therapy to make the sufferer accept their assigned gender. Couldn't you say the same of make-up, or wearing nice clothes or dying your hair? Some people just want to look a certain way. Well "who you are" is a confusing thing in itself. You are how you feel, at least to an extent, no? But even that aside, suppose you are right - telling someone to accept "who they are" has proven ineffective with severe cases. If you're actually trying to help these people, then shouldn't you give them the treatment that best alleviates their suffering, whether you think it's technically a lie or not? Wuuuuuuuuuuuuuurds Come on, you're better than that. If that's how you're going to respond to people trying to answer your "honest" questions, it's no wonder people are taking you for a bigot.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Apr 3, 2017 19:24:39 GMT
I realize this might offend some, but I mean to express that I honestly don't understand the support of being transgender.
I am a humanist, I support the ideas of freedom and life in general, and I fully support and completely understand the nature and lifestyle of gays and lesbians without question. I wish them all the happiness in the world and embrace them.
But being transgender is different. You're talking about not accepting what you are and trying to be something else. It's the opposite of why I support gay people. You're talking about surgery. You're talking about cutting off body parts to be something else. I really don't know how this isn't disturbing. Where is the line between that and a legitimate psychological problem?
And I honestly find it outrageous that people felt the need to give somebody like Jenner a woman of the year award. That's a joke right? There are great women out there accomplishing amazing things, and some guy who cut off his dick and put on a dress is the woman of the year? That's an outrage to women and their legitimate contributions to society. I am not sure why you had to announce yourself as a humanist. " You're talking about not accepting what you are and trying to be something else. " What's wrong with that? People want to be different people all the time so they change. When I was a kid I was a couch potato so I changed. Am I not excepting myself? Why is surgery to make yourself more like a woman or man imply someone has a psychological problem but not making your tits or arse bigger like some women do? It both involves surgery. I agree that was a joke.
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