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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 20:09:29 GMT
Who do you think is better ?
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Post by chalk2 on Mar 23, 2017 21:48:35 GMT
I'm giving ole Sherlock the nod.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 2:41:05 GMT
I would hire Sherlock Holmes, with the amount of cocaine that he does, the guy would be at your case day and night and might even forget to charge you after he solved the damn thing.
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 25, 2017 3:33:08 GMT
I'm a great Agatha Christie fan, but Poirot's character is not particularly rounded in the books, at least not until the later ones, in which he becomes wiser, more comforting, more understanding, and less a collection of French (yes, I know he's Belgian, but hear me out) tropes. That may be because the Poirot novels are Golden Age mystery novels, in which the focus is more on the plot. Admittedly, one can emphasize both elements, plot and character, as Christie herself did in post-war works, but that did not take precedence.
(E.g., a made up passage from a made-up early novel: "Oui, mon ami, that is exactly why Mrs. Abrams turned away from her husband in the garden." "I say, Poirot, you don't mean to say that..." "Ah, mon cher, only two know the truth --le bon Dieu and Hercule Poirot." "I say, Poirot, that's a bit thick. When did you first suspect that it was Mrs. Abrams?" "Ah, tut, tut, tut, Hastings, but it was not Mrs. Abrams." "Not Mrs. Abrams? But..." "The murderer, my friend, was none other than Mr. Abrams's secretary, dressed up to look like Mrs. Abrams, who was already dead!" "My God!")
The Holmes tales, on the other hand, are less "detective stories" than they are "stories about a detective" (to use a famous comparison made about Chandler's books) I think that's why, in the end, Sherlock Holmes's character is stronger.
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 25, 2017 3:37:54 GMT
I would hire Sherlock Holmes, with the amount of cocaine that he does, the guy would be at your case day and night and might even forget to charge you after he solved the damn thing. The Sign of the Four starts out with Watson's description of the needle going into Holmes's arm, for which Watson sarcastically snaps, "Which is it to-day? Morphine, or cocaine?" Holmes responds, "It is cocaine, a seven-per-cent solution.* Would you care to try it?" *Yes, that's where Nicholas Meyer got the title of his celebrated Holmes-meets-Freud pastiche (and its film adaptation).
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Post by Jillian on Mar 25, 2017 9:19:13 GMT
I love them both, but Sherlock wins.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 23:47:13 GMT
The Holmes tales, on the other hand, are less "detective stories" than they are "stories about a detective" (to use a famous comparison made about Chandler's books) I think that's why, in the end, Sherlock Holmes's character is stronger. It has been a few years since I have read the books but most of the films and series still don't represent the actual diversity of the character in the book very well. I think that Robert Downey Jr's version in 'Sherlock Holmes' maybe a bit closer. It is easy to ask the question? James Bond Vs. Sherlock Holmes, and you would get a pretty good comparison going. Poirot seems to be mostly a detectives detective while Holmes always seems to border on supernatural abilities and you could say that he was the Victorian version of a crime-fighting Batman ridding London of evil doers and anarchists.
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 27, 2017 16:44:00 GMT
The Holmes tales, on the other hand, are less "detective stories" than they are "stories about a detective" (to use a famous comparison made about Chandler's books) I think that's why, in the end, Sherlock Holmes's character is stronger. It has been a few years since I have read the books but most of the films and series still don't represent the actual diversity of the character in the book very well. I think that Robert Downey Jr's version in 'Sherlock Holmes' maybe a bit closer. It is easy to ask the question? James Bond Vs. Sherlock Holmes, and you would get a pretty good comparison going. Poirot seems to be mostly a detectives detective while Holmes always seems to border on supernatural abilities and you could say that he was the Victorian version of a crime-fighting Batman ridding London of evil doers and anarchists. Hm. As something of amateur Sherlockian (Holmesian?--I believe the former is the American and the latter the British designation) myself, Morpheus, I wouldn't exactly say that "...Holmes always seems to border on supernatural abilities..." As late as " The Adventure of the Sussex Vampire" (one of the best-clued, most sympathetic, and most underrated of Doyle's tales, despite a weak ending), Holmes remarks to Watson, "This agency stands flat-footed upon the ground, and there it must remain. The world is big enough for us. No ghosts need apply." And there is not a single actual supernatural event in the canon (Holmes dispelling the notion of the supernatural in The Hound of the Baskervilles, "The Sussex Vampire," and "The Devil's Foot"). To some extent, though, I agree with you that "...most of the films and series...don't represent the actual diversity of the character..." I love Basil Rathbone's portrayal (indeed, he's probably my favorite Holmes), but, as good a performance as it is, sometimes it doesn't have all the characteristics Doyle gave to his detective. If one is aiming for fidelity to Doyle's text, I would have to say Jeremy Brett (wonderful series, his) is the best of the lot. You're right, too, in the sense that Holmes is not quite the same kind of detective that Poirot is. Poirot is far more an armchair detective (in a figurative sense); he would not bend down to look at footprints or bits of piping--indeed, he mocks a Holmesian detective who does so in Murder on the Links!--but rather to think about the problem contemplatively, using his "little grey cells." Not to say that Holmes doesn't do that as well (he spends the whole night contemplating a solution in "The Man with the Twisted Lip"), but he's also a man of action, of derring-do and adventure, much like Robin Hood, King Arthur, Allan Quatermain, etc. Indeed, it is this last characteristic that makes him as "real" in the history of literature as those two, the very fact that he's in the adventurous tradition. (Note that Doyle, breaking the mold at the time, titles his stories not "The case of..." but rather "The adventure of...") Unfortunately, I liked just about everything about Guy Ritchie's Sherlock Holmes except Downey's Holmes characterization (and the overabundance of pyrotechnics). Yes, SH may well be the predecessor for Batman, but he is a predecessor, not a superhero. The Downey version made him a modern-style, womanizing action hero--different from Doyle's adventure hero. But, that aside, I found the movie great fun.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2017 22:47:39 GMT
Hm. As something of amateur Sherlockian (Holmesian?--I believe the former is the American and the latter the British designation) myself, Morpheus, I wouldn't exactly say that "...Holmes always seems to border on supernatural abilities..." As late as " The Adventure of the Sussex Vampire" (one of the best-clued, most sympathetic, and most underrated of Doyle's tales, despite a weak ending), Holmes remarks to Watson, "This agency stands flat-footed upon the ground, and there it must remain. The world is big enough for us. No ghosts need apply." And there is not a single actual supernatural event in the canon (Holmes dispelling the notion of the supernatural in The Hound of the Baskervilles, "The Sussex Vampire," and "The Devil's Foot"). Unfortunately, I liked just about everything about Guy Ritchie's Sherlock Holmes except Downey's Holmes characterization (and the overabundance of pyrotechnics). Yes, SH may well be the predecessor for Batman, but he is a predecessor, not a superhero. The Downey version made him a modern-style, womanizing action hero--different from Doyle's adventure hero. But, that aside, I found the movie great fun. really great and informative post thanks Guy Ritchie's Sherlock Holmes is a refreshing take on the character and I agree with you the womanizing aspect is really only there to try to make him more the adventurer type suited to the movies own direction rather then the very capable Brainiac he appears to us in the novels. After some on-line research here are Holmes known abilities: Dr. Watson subsequently assesses Holmes's abilities thus: 1. Knowledge of Literature – nil. 2. Knowledge of Philosophy – nil. 3. Knowledge of Astronomy – nil. 4. Knowledge of Politics – Feeble. 5. Knowledge of Botany – Variable. Well up in belladonna, opium and poisons generally. Knows nothing of practical gardening. 6. Knowledge of Geology – Practical, but limited. Tells at a glance different soils from each other. After walks, has shown me splashes upon his trousers, and told me by their colour and consistence in what part of London he had received them. 7. Knowledge of Chemistry – Profound. 8. Knowledge of Anatomy – Accurate, but unsystematic. 9. Knowledge of Sensational Literature – Immense. He appears to know every detail of every horror perpetrated in the century. 10. Plays the violin well. 11. Is an expert single-stick player, boxer and swordsman. 1. Ability to use pistols, shown in a few stories e.g. Hound of the Baskervilles and The Sign of Four. 2. Ability to use cane/walking stick as weapon 3. "Apparent" ability to use a sword (according to Watson in A Study of Scarlet he is an expert). 4. Ability to use a riding crop as a weapon (and described in The Six Napoleons story as his favorite weapon). 5. Formidable bare knuckle boxer, discussed and shown in A Sign of Four. 6. Ability to use martial arts (in particular baritsu). This was mentioned by Holmes in The Adventure of the Empty House as how he defeated Moriarty at the Reichenbach Falls. 12. Has a good practical knowledge of British law. 13. Holmes knows Latin and needs no translation of Roman epigrams in the original— --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, A Study in Scarlet Later stories also contradict the list. Despite Holmes's supposed ignorance of politics, in "A Scandal in Bohemia" he immediately recognizes the true identity of the supposed "Count von Kramm". Regarding non-sensational literature, his speech is replete with references to the Bible, Shakespeare, even Goethe. Holmes is also a competent cryptanalyst. He relates to Watson, "I am fairly familiar with all forms of secret writing, and am myself the author of a trifling monograph upon the subject, in which I analyze one hundred and sixty separate ciphers". One such scheme is solved using frequency analysis in "The Adventure of the Dancing Men". Holmes's analysis of physical evidence is both scientific and precise. His methods include the use of latent prints such as footprints, hoof prints and bicycle tracks to identify actions at a crime scene sherlockspy.blogspot.com/p/knowledge-and-skills.html" But love is an emotional thing, and whatever is emotional is opposed to that true cold reason which I place above all things. I should never marry myself, lest I bias my judgment. "- Sherlock Holmes quote from "The Sign of Four"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2017 22:53:43 GMT
I would hire Sherlock Holmes, with the amount of cocaine that he does, the guy would be at your case day and night and might even forget to charge you after he solved the damn thing. Holmes quit doing coke, though.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2017 23:00:15 GMT
I would hire Sherlock Holmes, with the amount of cocaine that he does, the guy would be at your case day and night and might even forget to charge you after he solved the damn thing. Holmes quit doing coke, though. That's true, Watson persuaded Holmes to quit taking drugs, if I left something out on his night table? hmmmmm.....then called back in the morning? Well I did lose my favorite umbrella,
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 27, 2017 23:25:45 GMT
I would hire Sherlock Holmes, with the amount of cocaine that he does, the guy would be at your case day and night and might even forget to charge you after he solved the damn thing. Holmes quit doing coke, though. True, but in one of the later stories ("The Devil's Foot"? No, "The Missing Three-Quarter"--I just looked it up), Watson writes, "...I was well aware that the fiend [Holmes's cocaine addiction] was not dead, but sleeping." I suppose that can be said of all addictions, however.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2017 23:50:29 GMT
Holmes quit doing coke, though. True, but in one of the later stories ("The Devil's Foot"? No, "The Missing Three-Quarter"--I just looked it up), Watson writes, "...I was well aware that the fiend [Holmes's cocaine addiction] was not dead, but sleeping." I suppose that can be said of all addictions, however. I didn't remember that but it does sound like something Holmes would do. BTW, I don't think "Sherlockian" is an accepted term in the USA, either. We use "Holmesian", too. I became a major Holmes fan many years ago, ended up with a volume which includes everything Conan Doyle wrote about Holmes, and have read everything at least once. My favorite is "The Adventure of the Dying Detective". An ancestor of mine, Christopher Morley, started the very first Sherlock Holmes club and wrote the forward (or is it introduction?) to the all-inclusive book I bought. I agree that Jeremy Brett's version is the most faithful to the stories, but I feel that Rathbone was closer to the actual Holmes overall, especially as I see Brett's as too effeminate-like. I enjoy Downey as Holmes despite his version's being the least faithful, so far. Nevertheless, I think there'll never be an accurate theatrical Holmes; maybe he's too complex. Some literary things aren't very translatable to any other art form.
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 28, 2017 0:06:31 GMT
True, but in one of the later stories ("The Devil's Foot"? No, "The Missing Three-Quarter"--I just looked it up), Watson writes, "...I was well aware that the fiend [Holmes's cocaine addiction] was not dead, but sleeping." I suppose that can be said of all addictions, however. I didn't remember that but it does sound like something Holmes would do. BTW, I don't think "Sherlockian" is an accepted term in the USA, either. We use "Holmesian", too. I became a major Holmes fan many years ago, ended up with a volume which includes everything Conan Doyle wrote about Holmes, and have read everything at least once. My favorite is "The Adventure of the Dying Detective". An ancestor of mine, Christopher Morley, started the very first Sherlock Holmes club and wrote the forward (or is it introduction?) to the all-inclusive book I bought. I agree that Jeremy Brett's version is the most faithful to the stories, but I feel that Rathbone was closer to the actual Holmes overall, especially as I see Brett's as too effeminate-like. I enjoy Downey as Holmes despite his version's being the least faithful, so far. Nevertheless, I think there'll never be an accurate theatrical Holmes; maybe he's too complex. Some literary things aren't very translatable to any other art form. Hm, very interesting, Gottaluvafriend. I'm also a huge Holmes fan. I could have sworn reading somewhere that "Sherlockian" was the American term and "Holmesian" the British one. (I'm American too, by the way.) Ah, according to this website (never seen it before, so I've no idea as to its accuracy), that used to be the case, but now "Sherlockian" is more used for Moffat and Gatiss's BBC show and "Holmesian" for the actual Holmes devotee (of the "Canon," ACD's original writings). Nice to clear up that distinction! Great to hear about Morley! Did you ever happen to meet him? I've long been interested in his The Haunted Bookshop (as well, of course, in the BSI) since reading about it on Mike Grost's detective-story website. You may be right about Holmes's translatability (or lack thereof) to screen, though I am fond of Brett's portrayal (particularly in the original season, with David Burke as Watson). Besides Rathbone (of course), I'm also very fond of Robert Stephens's Wildean take on the character in The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes and Nicol Williamson's wild-eyed loon in The Seven-Per-Cent Solution (though I find the movie weak overall). Both aren't exactly faithful to the text, but, hey, I'm forgiving.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Mar 28, 2017 1:39:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2017 3:29:27 GMT
I didn't remember that but it does sound like something Holmes would do. BTW, I don't think "Sherlockian" is an accepted term in the USA, either. We use "Holmesian", too. I became a major Holmes fan many years ago, ended up with a volume which includes everything Conan Doyle wrote about Holmes, and have read everything at least once. My favorite is "The Adventure of the Dying Detective". An ancestor of mine, Christopher Morley, started the very first Sherlock Holmes club and wrote the forward (or is it introduction?) to the all-inclusive book I bought. I agree that Jeremy Brett's version is the most faithful to the stories, but I feel that Rathbone was closer to the actual Holmes overall, especially as I see Brett's as too effeminate-like. I enjoy Downey as Holmes despite his version's being the least faithful, so far. Nevertheless, I think there'll never be an accurate theatrical Holmes; maybe he's too complex. Some literary things aren't very translatable to any other art form. Hm, very interesting, Gottaluvafriend. I'm also a huge Holmes fan. I could have sworn reading somewhere that "Sherlockian" was the American term and "Holmesian" the British one. (I'm American too, by the way.) Ah, according to this website (never seen it before, so I've no idea as to its accuracy), that used to be the case, but now "Sherlockian" is more used for Moffat and Gatiss's BBC show and "Holmesian" for the actual Holmes devotee (of the "Canon," ACD's original writings). Nice to clear up that distinction! Great to hear about Morley! Did you ever happen to meet him? I've long been interested in his The Haunted Bookshop (as well, of course, in the BSI) since reading about it on Mike Grost's detective-story website. You may be right about Holmes's translatability (or lack thereof) to screen, though I am fond of Brett's portrayal (particularly in the original season, with David Burke as Watson). Besides Rathbone (of course), I'm also very fond of Robert Stephens's Wildean take on the character in The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes and Nicol Williamson's wild-eyed loon in The Seven-Per-Cent Solution (though I find the movie weak overall). Both aren't exactly faithful to the text, but, hey, I'm forgiving. I think I've personally never heard the word "Sherlockian" used, or maybe I've heard it so many times that I've blocked such a horrible memory. My ancestor was long gone before I was born. I was told about him via my parents, and then of course discovered him personally when I discovered Conan Doyle. When I was a teen I started Omnibus but, not being a reader but a testosterone vat, couldn't get interested. Still, I think that probably not the ideal starting point. On your recommendation, I've just now bought a copy of The Haunted Bookshop (got it cheap at Half.com). Meanwhile, I notice that there are a number of his works which look interesting. I wonder why I hadn't looked into him before now. Anyway, thanx! I love Brett's Holmes. I watched all of the PBS series religiously and having already been familiar with the stories made them most enjoyable. I too liked Burke's Watson and wondered when why when he was replaced. I wondered if the producers wanted to avoid any appearance of evil, as the two heroes were so close in age (as they were in the books). I haven't seen The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes but would like to, and I've been a big fan of The Seven-Per-Cent Solution since it was first released to theaters. It's my favorite Robert Duvall performance, and another favorite performance, that of Alan Arkin. The Sigmund Freud/Holmes intervention facet opens up the story as if from predictable hallway tunnel vision into a huge library filled with a glorious collection of pristine, ancient volumes. The story pops open three-dimensionally. It's a beautiful, exciting surprise. I'd read the novel yet the surprise still worked. Now, I'm becoming nostalgic. Maybe I'll see if I can find some Brett on Youtube.
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on Feb 18, 2018 15:28:26 GMT
Sherlock Holmes.
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Post by alfromni on Feb 21, 2018 12:01:28 GMT
Poirot every time.
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Post by politicidal on Feb 23, 2018 0:36:25 GMT
Poirot.
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Post by ant-mac on Oct 31, 2018 4:36:07 GMT
Sherlock Holmes, but I like both.
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