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Post by Arlon10 on Jan 25, 2019 0:17:52 GMT
As is often the case when people disagree, their difference is not a matter of substance but of a definition of terms.
There are rules and there are exceptions to rules. Often the rules include exceptions spelled out in them. In those cases it is obvious that some "mercy" (exception) is "perfectly" just (according to rule) having been spelled out in the rules.
Things are not always so clear or so spelled out. Confusion can arise as we see here.
A discussion whether some new exception "ought" to be allowed can be a perfectly intelligent discussion that deals "perfect" justice.
Things can get out of hand and it has been noted that sometimes the "exception becomes the rule." That probably does not deserve to be considered "perfect" justice, but perhaps some review is possible.
The childish yet charming banter of atheists who have difficulty with the meanings of words as a result of their low level of reading ability is what keeps this board going. They seem surprised that new situations can require new words or uses of current words, and attempt to force everything into their limited world view.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 25, 2019 0:23:16 GMT
FilmFlaneur Wait are you saying opinion is belief? Otherwise, enlighten me on how that is a reflection of my religious views as opposed to my literary ones? No, I am saying that you discuss your beliefs - "Mercy is a form of perfection" "God always provides a way out", etc- perfectly readily when it suits. As we can see. Unless, of course, you would now claim that you don't in fact believe your own opinions. But if you consider Genesis as just literature and not history after all then I stand corrected (and share your view) but for reasons given below, it seems unlikely, especially as 'repentance' is not being considered as a literary or metaphorical device. It is easy to see an utter lack of irony in your claim that "in the flood days that (repentance) would be difficult considering how many non-humans were roaming around and demon babies were doomed from the get-go. But for humans there is no indication that Noah was working in secret, which means they had decades to change from their ways and chose not to." The reasonable impression, given your serious tone throughout this thread, common to earnest believers, is that you take all at face value. QED. Thank you, it is easy to do. That's OK; I don't really care about the views of the credulous about me either. Just as well as they normally resort to personal insults rather than argument*. But as I have never evinced an extreme or irrational fear of, or aversion to, theism on this board (as opposed to a trenchant and continuing examination of its claims with a healthy dose of scepticism) then you are unfortunately just using 'theophobia' as a swear word. You won't know that I have an autistic brother. You do now. Don't tell me what I believe. And haven't you distinguished opinion from belief, only just above? Talking about demon babies, Noah and the flood from a fundamentalist viewpoint, and the consideration of same, is always more interesting than the mere lack of belief in the truth of myth and hypothetical deities. I am happy to talk about flood myths as likely works of fiction whenever you wish to continue. For the time being you are the one who, I would suggest for reasons already cited, takes it all literally. But as you apparently never discuss some things, we won't know much more will we? Condescension and mild * ad hominem noted. |
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Post by Karl Aksel on Jan 25, 2019 22:29:09 GMT
Do you believe that God is ALWAYS just....(that he always administers perfect justice)? I once heard it argued (by a Christian at the time) that even if an action of God might appear unjust to us, our own human concept of justice is not qualified to judge God's actions, because Divine justice is simply far above and beyond our limited comprehension. People who try to argue that are basically admitting that they themselves cannot be trusted to be able to tell right from wrong. |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 25, 2019 22:35:14 GMT
I once heard it argued (by a Christian at the time) that even if an action of God might appear unjust to us, our own human concept of justice is not qualified to judge God's actions, because Divine justice is simply far above and beyond our limited comprehension. People who try to argue that are basically admitting that they themselves cannot be trusted to be able to tell right from wrong. Unfortunately history has shown, again and again, that even people with faith cannot be trusted to tell right from wrong either. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 26, 2019 13:19:43 GMT
I once heard it argued (by a Christian at the time) that even if an action of God might appear unjust to us, our own human concept of justice is not qualified to judge God's actions, because Divine justice is simply far above and beyond our limited comprehension. People who try to argue that are basically admitting that they themselves cannot be trusted to be able to tell right from wrong. Whole I think it's pretty easy to see how justice works out in scripture, clearly one shouldn't automatically trusts their judgements of right and wrong as if it's some kind of instinct. People that think this usually lack the wisdom to think about things in hindsight or with forethought. |
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Post by drystyx on Jan 28, 2019 14:31:46 GMT
The common denominator with pretty much all Christians is that the good God is all good and all knowing, and our own knowledge is limited.
For example ,most of the Bible is written by people who lived in times in which certain events were common knowledge lost on us today. If there was a Charles Manson family cult that was known about in the days of Noah, all we might hear about is how men were evil. That might be something that was very common knowledge and even experienced by everyone in the days of Moses.
We don't know.
Those kids that taunted Elisha and were killed by bears. Their taunts were certainly indicative of the dehumanizing taunts that Nazis gave Jews. If we heard such a story of Nazis taunting a Jew, we'd know that they intended to dehumanize the Jew and thus rationalize that destroying the Jew was okay. All of this would be premeditated, no matter how one slices it. Was this common knowledge then?
We don't know. God supposedly knows, though.
The difference between the religious right fundamentalist who makes up less than 20% of the Christian community and all other Christians is that the fundamentalist claims God even does the evil. The fundamentalist will say all evil things that happen have a good outcome, but I know I'm in the majority of Christians who claim that the enemy does the evil. Otherwise, Jesus wouldn't had to play by the rules of the enemy to redeem us. Since the enemy is prince of this world, he dictates much of the information we get.
For the 80% or more of us who believe in the Holy Ghost, that is the force of good from the good God, we apply wisdom. Those who claim God afflicts someone with Cancer are no different than the materialistic atheists on the other side. Both are essentially the same personalities who happen to be in different camps at the moment. That's what Western culture has in both political parties. Both are tools of the Devil. Far left people can turn far right in an instant, and vice versa, because they're really the same demonic belief. The fundamentalist thinks the good God does this, which is impossible. The materialistic nihilistic atheist thinks Nature does this, which is impossible in natural selection.
Since only a principality can incur such illogic in so many people, we know there are supernatural principalities. Chemicals in the brain cannot be that contrived otherwise. Since they work to confuse and divide and destroy, we know these principalities are not doing the work of the "good God", and thus are doing the work of the enemy.
How much the good God is allowed to work in the realm of Satan is open to debate, but the fact is that the enemy is certainly at work.
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Post by goz on Jan 28, 2019 20:16:36 GMT
The common denominator with pretty much all Christians is that the good God is all good and all knowing, and our own knowledge is limited. For example ,most of the Bible is written by people who lived in times in which certain events were common knowledge lost on us today. If there was a Charles Manson family cult that was known about in the days of Noah, all we might hear about is how men were evil. That might be something that was very common knowledge and even experienced by everyone in the days of Moses. We don't know. Those kids that taunted Elisha and were killed by bears. Their taunts were certainly indicative of the dehumanizing taunts that Nazis gave Jews. If we heard such a story of Nazis taunting a Jew, we'd know that they intended to dehumanize the Jew and thus rationalize that destroying the Jew was okay. All of this would be premeditated, no matter how one slices it. Was this common knowledge then? We don't know. God supposedly knows, though. The difference between the religious right fundamentalist who makes up less than 20% of the Christian community and all other Christians is that the fundamentalist claims God even does the evil. The fundamentalist will say all evil things that happen have a good outcome, but I know I'm in the majority of Christians who claim that the enemy does the evil. Otherwise, Jesus wouldn't had to play by the rules of the enemy to redeem us. Since the enemy is prince of this world, he dictates much of the information we get. For the 80% or more of us who believe in the Holy Ghost, that is the force of good from the good God, we apply wisdom. Those who claim God afflicts someone with Cancer are no different than the materialistic atheists on the other side. Both are essentially the same personalities who happen to be in different camps at the moment. That's what Western culture has in both political parties. Both are tools of the Devil. Far left people can turn far right in an instant, and vice versa, because they're really the same demonic belief. The fundamentalist thinks the good God does this, which is impossible. The materialistic nihilistic atheist thinks Nature does this, which is impossible in natural selection. Since only a principality can incur such illogic in so many people, we know there are supernatural principalities. Chemicals in the brain cannot be that contrived otherwise. Since they work to confuse and divide and destroy, we know these principalities are not doing the work of the "good God", and thus are doing the work of the enemy. How much the good God is allowed to work in the realm of Satan is open to debate, but the fact is that the enemy is certainly at work. You have the most amazing ability to say the most outrageous nonsensical things as though you really believe them, It makes me wonder about you in your everyday life and whether you say this stuff out loud and what people's reaction is to you,(especially in your line of work, allegedly) or whether you just fool around trolling on the internet. Your life must be blissfully simple if you really believe that everything good is caused by God and everything bad ( or that you don't like) is caused by Satan or the devil or demons. Do people in real life think you are as doolally as I think you are on here? |
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 28, 2019 21:47:26 GMT
I once heard it argued (by a Christian at the time) that even if an action of God might appear unjust to us, our own human concept of justice is not qualified to judge God's actions, because Divine justice is simply far above and beyond our limited comprehension. People who try to argue that are basically admitting that they themselves cannot be trusted to be able to tell right from wrong. Isn't that the default position of most theists though? |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 28, 2019 23:46:01 GMT
People who try to argue that are basically admitting that they themselves cannot be trusted to be able to tell right from wrong. Isn't that the default position of most theists though? I think the kind of Christian I paraphrased would contend that he can tell right from wrong within the limitations of what it means to be human. |
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Post by goz on Jan 29, 2019 0:01:24 GMT
Isn't that the default position of most theists though? I think the kind of Christian I paraphrased would contend that he can tell right from wrong within the limitations of what it means to be human. Do you mean right from wrong for God, or for humans? There seems to be somewhat of a double standard in the Bible. |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 29, 2019 0:15:24 GMT
I think the kind of Christian I paraphrased would contend that he can tell right from wrong within the limitations of what it means to be human. Do you mean right from wrong for God, or for humans? There seems to be somewhat of a double standard in the Bible. For humans. Yes, it's a double standard, but acceptable because it's not a double standard between humans. It's a double standard because humans and God, and we can't comprehend things on God's level. |
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Post by goz on Jan 29, 2019 0:26:24 GMT
Do you mean right from wrong for God, or for humans? There seems to be somewhat of a double standard in the Bible. For humans. Yes, it's a double standard, but acceptable because it's not a double standard between humans. It's a double standard because humans and God, and we can't comprehend things on God's level. OK. Then how are we supposed to do what is right if we don't know what God's standards are, because we can't comprehend his stuff? I mean, his 'instruction manual' is inconclusive!  |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 29, 2019 0:32:41 GMT
For humans. Yes, it's a double standard, but acceptable because it's not a double standard between humans. It's a double standard because humans and God, and we can't comprehend things on God's level. OK. Then how are we supposed to do what is right if we don't know what God's standards are, because we can't comprehend his stuff? I mean, his 'instruction manual' is inconclusive! If you're a Christian, just do what you, as a Christian, believe is right. And whenever it looks to you like God did something beastly, just remember that you, being only human, are in no position to evaluate God's actions. |
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Post by goz on Jan 29, 2019 0:49:16 GMT
OK. Then how are we supposed to do what is right if we don't know what God's standards are, because we can't comprehend his stuff? I mean, his 'instruction manual' is inconclusive! If you're a Christian, just do what you, as a Christian, believe is right. And whenever it looks to you like God did something beastly, just remember that you, being only human, are in no position to evaluate God's actions. ….butt what if he is being a dick to little kids or something? |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 29, 2019 0:58:52 GMT
If you're a Christian, just do what you, as a Christian, believe is right. And whenever it looks to you like God did something beastly, just remember that you, being only human, are in no position to evaluate God's actions. ….butt what if he is being a dick to little kids or something? Like I said. Remember that he's God, and so he has good reasons that are beyond human comprehension. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 29, 2019 12:18:37 GMT
It never stops being cute to read a conversation between two or more theophobiacs presuming religious beliefs.
It reminds me of those videos where babies mimic grownups by pretending to talk on the phone.
Adorable!😊
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Post by Isapop on Jan 29, 2019 18:42:05 GMT
It never stops being cute to read a conversation between two or more theophobiacs presuming religious beliefs. It reminds me of those videos where babies mimic grownups by pretending to talk on the phone. Adorable!😊 Be explicit. Are you making a claim about the following viewpoint:
...even if an action of God might appear unjust to us, our own human concept of justice is not qualified to judge God's actions, because Divine justice is simply far above and beyond our limited comprehension.
Are you saying that viewpoint is not an actual viewpoint found in various sources of Christian teaching, but only an untrue presumption about Christian teachings?
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Post by drystyx on Jan 29, 2019 20:13:59 GMT
It never stops being cute to read a conversation between two or more theophobiacs presuming religious beliefs. It reminds me of those videos where babies mimic grownups by pretending to talk on the phone. Adorable!😊 Be explicit. Are you making a claim about the following viewpoint:
...even if an action of God might appear unjust to us, our own human concept of justice is not qualified to judge God's actions, because Divine justice is simply far above and beyond our limited comprehension.
Are you saying that viewpoint is not an actual viewpoint found in various sources of Christian teaching, but only an untrue presumption about Christian teachings?
You do realize Cool JGS is not sane, don't you? You have been here long enough to know he's kid with a temper tantrum, one of the Donald Trump clones here who cry cause they didn't luck out like Donald, but still worship the idea of divisiveness and hate mongering? You've been here long enough to know that. Now, for an adult reaction to the statement about divine justice: I realize, and so do many others, that a lifetime is a blink of Eternity, and when we meet the divine God, the good God, we'll understand more of that blink. However, I differ, as do most Christians I dare say, in believing God actually has a hand in the fire that disfigures a person, the accident that paralyzes a person, all for some unique good, such as inspiring love in someone else. Because that is not "love", and it is not "good" under any circumstances. My view is a bit more Gnostic, in that Satan the enemy has the hand in that, and God would not allow it if it was his "world", but this is the playground of Satan, and Satan made the rules here. I realize that is more than a bit Gnostic, but I could not worship a God who was as evil as the fundamentalist view of him is. The Book of Job does support the fundamentalist view, but if it is inspired, it either isn't inspired by the Holy Ghost, or there is something missing from it that we don't have today. |
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Post by goz on Jan 29, 2019 21:19:04 GMT
Be explicit. Are you making a claim about the following viewpoint:
...even if an action of God might appear unjust to us, our own human concept of justice is not qualified to judge God's actions, because Divine justice is simply far above and beyond our limited comprehension.
Are you saying that viewpoint is not an actual viewpoint found in various sources of Christian teaching, but only an untrue presumption about Christian teachings? /b]
Now, for an adult reaction to the statement about divine justice:
I realize, and so do many others, that a lifetime is a blink of Eternity, and when we meet the divine God, the good God, we'll understand more of that blink.
However, I differ, as do most Christians I dare say, in believing God actually has a hand in the fire that disfigures a person, the accident that paralyzes a person, all for some unique good, such as inspiring love in someone else.
Because that is not "love", and it is not "good" under any circumstances.
My view is a bit more Gnostic, in that Satan the enemy has the hand in that, and God would not allow it if it was his "world", but this is the playground of Satan, and Satan made the rules here. I realize that is more than a bit Gnostic, but I could not worship a God who was as evil as the fundamentalist view of him is. The Book of Job does support the fundamentalist view, but if it is inspired, it either isn't inspired by the Holy Ghost, or there is something missing from it that we don't have today.
Wait no! I take it back from the last post I made to you. THIS is the best projection post of yours yet, claiming that Cool is the insane one. I know he is delusional in his belief in a weird unpredictable God and the absolute nature of the Bible, butt he is sanity personified compared to you. At least he acknowledges that there are good and bad things in the world and doesn't ascribe them to Satan because he can't bear for his supposedly 'perfect' God to do evil things! |
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Post by drystyx on Jan 29, 2019 21:34:22 GMT
You do realize Cool JGS is not sane, don't you? You have been here long enough to know he's kid with a temper tantrum, one of the Donald Trump clones here who cry cause they didn't luck out like Donald, but still worship the idea of divisiveness and hate mongering? You've been here long enough to know that.
Now, for an adult reaction to the statement about divine justice:
I realize, and so do many others, that a lifetime is a blink of Eternity, and when we meet the divine God, the good God, we'll understand more of that blink.
However, I differ, as do most Christians I dare say, in believing God actually has a hand in the fire that disfigures a person, the accident that paralyzes a person, all for some unique good, such as inspiring love in someone else.
Because that is not "love", and it is not "good" under any circumstances.
My view is a bit more Gnostic, in that Satan the enemy has the hand in that, and God would not allow it if it was his "world", but this is the playground of Satan, and Satan made the rules here. I realize that is more than a bit Gnostic, but I could not worship a God who was as evil as the fundamentalist view of him is. The Book of Job does support the fundamentalist view, but if it is inspired, it either isn't inspired by the Holy Ghost, or there is something missing from it that we don't have today.
Wait no! I take it back from the last post I made to you. THIS is the best projection post of yours yet, claiming that Cool is the insane one. I know he is delusional in his belief in a weird unpredictable God and the absolute nature of the Bible, butt he is sanity personified compared to you. At least he acknowledges that there are good and bad things in the world and doesn't ascribe them to Satan because he can't bear for his supposedly 'perfect' God to do evil things! If Gnostic Christianity was false, it would be just another accepted religion and a powerful force that had an institution to compete with fundamental Christianity, especially among those outside the faith. If it was true, then it would mean the demonic forces that are mentioned as having a strong hand in this existence, demonic forces that afflict all our minds in the Gnostic belief, that those forces would cause unprovoked hatred from unsuspecting humans like yourself, and cause such humans as yourself to try to discredit the Gnostic truth. And you've tried to do that, and even though you've failed in logic, failed miserably, if Gnosticism is true, then some people would also have that delusion and believe you are making sense, which would actually prove Gnosticism. So, if no one agrees with you, then you may have a point. Otherwise, you and the fool who "likes' your post will prove my point. Now, the demons see this, and will try to get them to not "like" your post, but the way they overplay their hand, they may have already began the momentum of that action. You like fundamentalist Christianity because of its illogic, and because you are out of control to demonic influence. I'm no different. I have the same demons try to force me to be a sheep like you. The difference is that wiser people like Hey, Erjen, and undeniably Arlon realize that succumbing to illogical thoughts is not rational, and they don't want to be sheep like you are. True, they're nicer to you than I am, because they want to save you from your prison, and the first step is making you realize you're in a prison, while I'm more concerned about staying out of that prison, because I'm not as brave as they are. I see your point. And I admire them for being so nice to you, and treating you so well no matter how disrespectful and childish you act. But I won't mention that. |
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