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Post by captainbryce on Jan 10, 2019 1:24:02 GMT
Goz is either asking l4k why is he a JW, or why is he sorry for the late reply, or why he doesn't post much, or why you should take care. Yeah, I couldn't tell. |
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Post by goz on Jan 10, 2019 1:29:50 GMT
Goz is either asking l4k why is he a JW, or why is he sorry for the late reply, or why he doesn't post much, or why you should take care. Yeah, I couldn't tell. ...then why not let l4k answer? |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 10, 2019 1:33:43 GMT
...then why not let l4k answer? We won't try to stop him. But you might have a long wait. |
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 10, 2019 2:45:51 GMT
...then why not let l4k answer? Because, I might have been able to provide an answer (if I knew what the actual question was). |
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Post by looking4klingons on Jan 10, 2019 3:51:13 GMT
Yes. (Sorry for being so late to reply, I’m not on here much.) Take care. Why? Because pretty much all my questions have been reasonably answered. JW dogma makes sense. (To me.) |
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Post by goz on Jan 10, 2019 3:59:28 GMT
Because pretty much all my questions have been reasonably answered. JW dogma makes sense. (To me.) OK then. IF you think that the end time or Armageddon or whatever it is, is approaching and you think we are all going to die and you lot and your friends and families will go to heaven, can you please will me all your earthly possessions, because I don't believe that, and it would be a shame if they were wasted, with you lot being in Heaven and all, and me trotting along happily on earth? I will PM you my details so you can put me in your post appocolyptal will. Thanks in advance. |
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Post by looking4klingons on Jan 10, 2019 4:34:31 GMT
Because pretty much all my questions have been reasonably answered. JW dogma makes sense. (To me.) OK then. IF you think that the end time or Armageddon or whatever it is, is approaching and you think we are all going to die and you lot and your friends and families will go to heaven, can you please will me all your earthly possessions, because I don't believe that, and it would be a shame if they were wasted, with you lot being in Heaven and all, and me trotting along happily on earth? I will PM you my details so you can put me in your post appocolyptal will. Thanks in advance. Well, see, that’s one thing I appreciated. I discovered the Bible holds out the promise of living here, at the Earth, forvever. (Psalm 37:29; Isaiah 11:6-9; Revelation 21:3,4) So I plan on staying on Earth. Sorry. |
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Post by goz on Jan 10, 2019 4:55:29 GMT
OK then. IF you think that the end time or Armageddon or whatever it is, is approaching and you think we are all going to die and you lot and your friends and families will go to heaven, can you please will me all your earthly possessions, because I don't believe that, and it would be a shame if they were wasted, with you lot being in Heaven and all, and me trotting along happily on earth? I will PM you my details so you can put me in your post appocolyptal will. Thanks in advance. Well, see, that’s one thing I appreciated. I discovered the Bible holds out the promise of living here, at the Earth, forvever. (Psalm 37:29; Isaiah 11:6-9; Revelation 21:3,4) So I plan on staying on Earth. Sorry. Bummer!  |
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Post by Aj_June on Jan 10, 2019 5:05:01 GMT
OK then. IF you think that the end time or Armageddon or whatever it is, is approaching and you think we are all going to die and you lot and your friends and families will go to heaven, can you please will me all your earthly possessions, because I don't believe that, and it would be a shame if they were wasted, with you lot being in Heaven and all, and me trotting along happily on earth? I will PM you my details so you can put me in your post appocolyptal will. Thanks in advance. Well, see, that’s one thing I appreciated. I discovered the Bible holds out the promise of living here, at the Earth, forvever. (Psalm 37:29; Isaiah 11:6-9; Revelation 21:3,4) So I plan on staying on Earth. Sorry. So who are those who are not going to be here on Earth forever? I hope you are not implying that those who don't follow JW doctrine will not be here on Earth forever like you? |
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 10, 2019 17:26:04 GMT
Well, see, that’s one thing I appreciated. I discovered the Bible holds out the promise of living here, at the Earth, forvever. (Psalm 37:29; Isaiah 11:6-9; Revelation 21:3,4) So I plan on staying on Earth. Sorry. Bummer! One of the things about being a Jehovah’s Witness is that once you are indoctrinated into the belief system, you can’t ever leave it. Irrespective of what you may learn, how you might grow, or what you ultimately believe in the end, you’re trapped in the religion. Because witnesses who leave the faith are “disfellowshipped” from the congregation, which is worse than being excommunicated from the Catholic Church. People here often talk about how Witnesses have the most accurate interpretation of scripture compared to other Christian denominations. But in reality, they only have the most “literal” interpretation, even moreso than fundamentalist evangelicals (who often cherry pick what to interpret literally). Witnesses for example have the most literal interpretation of Matthew 10:34-36 and 1 Corinthians 5:12-13. Matthew 10:34-3634 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’1 Corinthians 5:12-13What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”The extreme literalism to which Jehovah’s Witnesses apply scripture to reality essentially makes them cult-like in their practices. A disfellowshipped Witness is required to be shunned by their entire family, friends, and community that still adheres to the faith (based on the above scriptures). This means that parents are essentially disowning their children, and becoming estranged from anyone they know who leaves the faith. Even fundamentalist evangelicals usually just demote those passages to metaphors, or ignore them altogether. But the JWs actually obey it to the letter. The threat of disfellowship alone is usually enough to keep a Witness in the religion. Fear of being rejected by their own family (a rather disgusting and hideous idea to anyone not brainwashed by this tradition) is rather traumatizing especially for a young person, often leading to suicide. In most cases, a witness couldn’t stop being a witness even if they wanted to. |
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Post by goz on Jan 10, 2019 20:03:19 GMT
Bummer! One of the things about being a Jehovah’s Witness is that once you are indoctrinated into the belief system, you can’t ever leave it. Irrespective of what you may learn, how you might grow, or what you ultimately believe in the end, you’re trapped in the religion. Because witnesses who leave the faith are “disfellowshipped” from the congregation, which is worse than being excommunicated from the Catholic Church. People here often talk about how Witnesses have the most accurate interpretation of scripture compared to other Christian denominations. But in reality, they only have the most “literal” interpretation, even moreso than fundamentalist evangelicals (who often cherry pick what to interpret literally). Witnesses for example have the most literal interpretation of Matthew 10:34-36 and 1 Corinthians 5:12-13. Matthew 10:34-3634 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’1 Corinthians 5:12-13What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”The extreme literalism to which Jehovah’s Witnesses apply scripture to reality essentially makes them cult-like in their practices. A disfellowshipped Witness is required to be shunned by their entire family, friends, and community that still adheres to the faith (based on the above scriptures). This means that parents are essentially disowning their children, and becoming estranged from anyone they know who leaves the faith. Even fundamentalist evangelicals usually just demote those passages to metaphors, or ignore them altogether. But the JWs actually obey it to the letter. The threat of disfellowship alone is usually enough to keep a Witness in the religion. Fear of being rejected by their own family (a rather disgusting and hideous idea to anyone not brainwashed by this tradition) is rather traumatizing especially for a young person, often leading to suicide. In most cases, a witness couldn’t stop being a witness even if they wanted to. Wow, That is more hard core than I thought. My only contact with JW's is that they annoyingly set up a little magazine stand near my bus stop and sit there looking like a puppy waiting to be fed, in all weather. Then they sometimes dress their families from babies to grandma up in their 'Sunday best' and trawl around my neighbourhood door to door 'spreading the word' to those who are too polite to tell them to move on, being emotionally blackmailed by the presence of the very young and the very old so that they don't say 'Fuck off' or set the dogs on them! One other contact was the wife of one of MOTH's best friends whose mother-in-law was a Witness. She succumbed as they lived in the same house, and I have to admit to losing that friendship for a few years due to the preaching at a social level, and my feeling sorry for her three children who never got birthday or Christmas presents and were a little ostracised in their own social setting and at school. It my have been because this is Australia and we are often more casual about things, butt this women left the Witness after her mother-in-law died and is now a tub thumping atheist. There were no dire consequences to my knowledge or maybe she was glad to cut all ties with such a 'regime'! |
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 10, 2019 23:18:26 GMT
One of the things about being a Jehovah’s Witness is that once you are indoctrinated into the belief system, you can’t ever leave it. Irrespective of what you may learn, how you might grow, or what you ultimately believe in the end, you’re trapped in the religion. Because witnesses who leave the faith are “disfellowshipped” from the congregation, which is worse than being excommunicated from the Catholic Church. People here often talk about how Witnesses have the most accurate interpretation of scripture compared to other Christian denominations. But in reality, they only have the most “literal” interpretation, even moreso than fundamentalist evangelicals (who often cherry pick what to interpret literally). Witnesses for example have the most literal interpretation of Matthew 10:34-36 and 1 Corinthians 5:12-13. Matthew 10:34-3634 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’1 Corinthians 5:12-13What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”The extreme literalism to which Jehovah’s Witnesses apply scripture to reality essentially makes them cult-like in their practices. A disfellowshipped Witness is required to be shunned by their entire family, friends, and community that still adheres to the faith (based on the above scriptures). This means that parents are essentially disowning their children, and becoming estranged from anyone they know who leaves the faith. Even fundamentalist evangelicals usually just demote those passages to metaphors, or ignore them altogether. But the JWs actually obey it to the letter. The threat of disfellowship alone is usually enough to keep a Witness in the religion. Fear of being rejected by their own family (a rather disgusting and hideous idea to anyone not brainwashed by this tradition) is rather traumatizing especially for a young person, often leading to suicide. In most cases, a witness couldn’t stop being a witness even if they wanted to. Wow, That is more hard core than I thought. My only contact with JW's is that they annoyingly set up a little magazine stand near my bus stop and sit there looking like a puppy waiting to be fed, in all weather. Then they sometimes dress their families from babies to grandma up in their 'Sunday best' and trawl around my neighbourhood door to door 'spreading the word' to those who are too polite to tell them to move on, being emotionally blackmailed by the presence of the very young and the very old so that they don't say 'Fuck off' or set the dogs on them! One other contact was the wife of one of MOTH's best friends whose mother-in-law was a Witness. She succumbed as they lived in the same house, and I have to admit to losing that friendship for a few years due to the preaching at a social level, and my feeling sorry for her three children who never got birthday or Christmas presents and were a little ostracised in their own social setting and at school. It my have been because this is Australia and we are often more casual about things, butt this women left the Witness after her mother-in-law died and is now a tub thumping atheist. There were no dire consequences to my knowledge or maybe she was glad to cut all ties with such a 'regime'! If you are the only one in your immediate family who is a witness, then it's much easier to leave because being disfellowshipped by the congregation does not alienate you from your family, only close friends within the religion that you may have made after joining it. It generally only applies to people who were raised as Jehovah's Witnesses and grew up with a family of Witnesses. |
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Post by Aj_June on Jan 11, 2019 17:15:39 GMT
One of the things about being a Jehovah’s Witness is that once you are indoctrinated into the belief system, you can’t ever leave it. Irrespective of what you may learn, how you might grow, or what you ultimately believe in the end, you’re trapped in the religion. Because witnesses who leave the faith are “disfellowshipped” from the congregation, which is worse than being excommunicated from the Catholic Church. People here often talk about how Witnesses have the most accurate interpretation of scripture compared to other Christian denominations. But in reality, they only have the most “literal” interpretation, even moreso than fundamentalist evangelicals (who often cherry pick what to interpret literally). Witnesses for example have the most literal interpretation of Matthew 10:34-36 and 1 Corinthians 5:12-13. Matthew 10:34-3634 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’1 Corinthians 5:12-13What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”The extreme literalism to which Jehovah’s Witnesses apply scripture to reality essentially makes them cult-like in their practices. A disfellowshipped Witness is required to be shunned by their entire family, friends, and community that still adheres to the faith (based on the above scriptures). This means that parents are essentially disowning their children, and becoming estranged from anyone they know who leaves the faith. Even fundamentalist evangelicals usually just demote those passages to metaphors, or ignore them altogether. But the JWs actually obey it to the letter. The threat of disfellowship alone is usually enough to keep a Witness in the religion. Fear of being rejected by their own family (a rather disgusting and hideous idea to anyone not brainwashed by this tradition) is rather traumatizing especially for a young person, often leading to suicide. In most cases, a witness couldn’t stop being a witness even if they wanted to. Wow, That is more hard core than I thought. My only contact with JW's is that they annoyingly set up a little magazine stand near my bus stop and sit there looking like a puppy waiting to be fed, in all weather. Then they sometimes dress their families from babies to grandma up in their 'Sunday best' and trawl around my neighbourhood door to door 'spreading the word' to those who are too polite to tell them to move on, being emotionally blackmailed by the presence of the very young and the very old so that they don't say 'Fuck off' or set the dogs on them! One other contact was the wife of one of MOTH's best friends whose mother-in-law was a Witness. She succumbed as they lived in the same house, and I have to admit to losing that friendship for a few years due to the preaching at a social level, and my feeling sorry for her three children who never got birthday or Christmas presents and were a little ostracised in their own social setting and at school. It my have been because this is Australia and we are often more casual about things, butt this women left the Witness after her mother-in-law died and is now a tub thumping atheist. There were no dire consequences to my knowledge or maybe she was glad to cut all ties with such a 'regime'! Even though it is thought that it is difficult to leave JW because of the fears of being disfellowshipped, more people who were raised as JW leave their former religion than do people of any other religion. The fact is that JW has the lowest retention ratio among all religious group in the US as revealed by the Pew Research survey. Interesting to note is what those who leave their former religions convert to once they leave their former religion. Among Hindus, of the 20 out the 100 who leave their former religion as adults, 19 become unaffiliated with religions (meaning they probably become an atheist, agonistic or non-religious). Just 1 converts to another religion. Among Jews, of the 25 out the 100 who leave their former religion as adults, 18 become unaffiliated with religions (meaning they probably become atheist, agonistic or non-religious). 7 convert to other religions. Among JW, of 66 out the 100 who leave their former religion as adults, 35 become unaffiliated with religions (meaning they probably become atheist, agonistic or non-religious). 31 convert to other religions. This is is an interesting finding. I suppose being JW makes you very strongly theistic so even though most JWs leave their religion as adults, many of them want to try out other religions in contrast to Hindus who either remain Hindus or become atheist. This isn't a coincidence as the majority of Hindus are not very serious about their faith. I guess we can also conclude that JW people also do a lot of active conversions of non-JW to keep their population in check. www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/chapter-2-religious-switching-and-intermarriage/#retention-of-childhood-members-hindus-muslims-and-jews-most-successful-at-retaining-adherents |
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Post by goz on Jan 11, 2019 20:14:49 GMT
Wow, That is more hard core than I thought. My only contact with JW's is that they annoyingly set up a little magazine stand near my bus stop and sit there looking like a puppy waiting to be fed, in all weather. Then they sometimes dress their families from babies to grandma up in their 'Sunday best' and trawl around my neighbourhood door to door 'spreading the word' to those who are too polite to tell them to move on, being emotionally blackmailed by the presence of the very young and the very old so that they don't say 'Fuck off' or set the dogs on them! One other contact was the wife of one of MOTH's best friends whose mother-in-law was a Witness. She succumbed as they lived in the same house, and I have to admit to losing that friendship for a few years due to the preaching at a social level, and my feeling sorry for her three children who never got birthday or Christmas presents and were a little ostracised in their own social setting and at school. It my have been because this is Australia and we are often more casual about things, butt this women left the Witness after her mother-in-law died and is now a tub thumping atheist. There were no dire consequences to my knowledge or maybe she was glad to cut all ties with such a 'regime'! Even though it is thought that it is difficult to leave JW because of the fears of being disfellowshipped, more people who were raised as JW leave their former religion than do people of any other religion. The fact is that JW has the lowest retention ratio among all religious group in the US as revealed by the Pew Research survey. Interesting to note is what those who leave their former religions convert to once they leave their former religion. Among Hindus, of the 20 out the 100 who leave their former religion as adults, 19 become unaffiliated with religions (meaning they probably become an atheist, agonistic or non-religious). Just 1 converts to another religion. Among Jews, of the 25 out the 100 who leave their former religion as adults, 18 become unaffiliated with religions (meaning they probably become atheist, agonistic or non-religious). 7 convert to other religions. Among JW, of 66 out the 100 who leave their former religion as adults, 35 become unaffiliated with religions (meaning they probably become atheist, agonistic or non-religious). 31 convert to other religions. This is is an interesting finding. I suppose being JW makes you very strongly theistic so even though most JWs leave their religion as adults, many of them want to try out other religions in contrast to Hindus who either remain Hindus or become atheist. This isn't a coincidence as the majority of Hindus are not very serious about their faith. I guess we can also conclude that JW people also do a lot of active conversions of non-JW to keep their population in check.www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/chapter-2-religious-switching-and-intermarriage/#retention-of-childhood-members-hindus-muslims-and-jews-most-successful-at-retaining-adherentsInteresting. We can only hope that the number of JWs is falling, then. |
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Post by Aj_June on Jan 11, 2019 22:51:32 GMT
Even though it is thought that it is difficult to leave JW because of the fears of being disfellowshipped, more people who were raised as JW leave their former religion than do people of any other religion. The fact is that JW has the lowest retention ratio among all religious group in the US as revealed by the Pew Research survey. Interesting to note is what those who leave their former religions convert to once they leave their former religion. Among Hindus, of the 20 out the 100 who leave their former religion as adults, 19 become unaffiliated with religions (meaning they probably become an atheist, agonistic or non-religious). Just 1 converts to another religion. Among Jews, of the 25 out the 100 who leave their former religion as adults, 18 become unaffiliated with religions (meaning they probably become atheist, agonistic or non-religious). 7 convert to other religions. Among JW, of 66 out the 100 who leave their former religion as adults, 35 become unaffiliated with religions (meaning they probably become atheist, agonistic or non-religious). 31 convert to other religions. This is is an interesting finding. I suppose being JW makes you very strongly theistic so even though most JWs leave their religion as adults, many of them want to try out other religions in contrast to Hindus who either remain Hindus or become atheist. This isn't a coincidence as the majority of Hindus are not very serious about their faith. I guess we can also conclude that JW people also do a lot of active conversions of non-JW to keep their population in check.www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/chapter-2-religious-switching-and-intermarriage/#retention-of-childhood-members-hindus-muslims-and-jews-most-successful-at-retaining-adherentsInteresting. We can only hope that the number of JWs is falling, then. No. Although JW have worst retention rate and 2/3 of JWs leave the religion as an adult, they do have a great system of marketing. 2/3rd people who are JW now previously followed another religion. JW has amazing gender gap too. 65% of JWs are women and just 35% JWs are men. No other community has this kind of gender disparity as far as I know although I know of 55-45 splits.They are currently 0.8% of US population. |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 11, 2019 23:45:05 GMT
65% of JWs are women and just 35% JWs are men. Now THAT'S gonna make things interesting after Armageddon isn't it. |
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Post by rizdek on Jan 11, 2019 23:55:35 GMT
65% of JWs are women and just 35% JWs are men. Now THAT'S gonna make things interesting after Armageddon isn't it. That's probably what they are hoping for. |
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Post by goz on Jan 12, 2019 0:16:05 GMT
65% of JWs are women and just 35% JWs are men. Now THAT'S gonna make things interesting after Armageddon isn't it. 'Sister Wives'? |
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 23, 2019 15:35:25 GMT
So, basically what you are saying is that Christians want God to be BOTH 1. subject to the human concept of justice and doling it out 2. for God to be beyond human understanding so inherently 'outside laws of human justice' so Christians have to put up with whatever their omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient power meets out! I don't see it as a logical stance and more of conundrum and it can't be both ways. Yeah, that was kind of the point of the question.  |
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 23, 2019 15:41:16 GMT
Does that not in itself seem antithetical to the point established originally? If God values good works over sacrifice then WHY would salvation be based on sacrifice instead of good works? It’s a contradiction in principle; God is basically talking out of both sides of his mouth. If good works was really better, then logically we shouldn’t need a sacrifice. Indeed, it could be so argued. But responding that Jesus' sacrifice, the one that all other sacrifices are mere symbolic foreshadowings of, is a unique case, one that the proverb doesn't seek to reference is a reasonable counter argument. These separate objections are stronger than the Proverbs objection, and each would make (and probably have made) interesting thread topics.
I haven’t seen them before. And I haven’t seen any Christian respond to them here. Cool sort of just ignored them, and Cody and the others have been silent. |
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