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Post by summers8 on Sept 16, 2018 9:10:14 GMT
So, many mcu fans are under the belief that mcu characters are A-Listers because of the disney Billion dollar cash flow. I have compared this more to Kylie Kardashian Jenner who is now a billionaire and richer than many people in Hollywood who are actually A-listers like AL Pacino , Martin Scorsese or Tom Hanks. None of these men have made up to 500 million dollars in their lifetime. hmm. Dear MCU fans to be an A-Lister you have to pass a few tests, I will break it down and we will see if MCU has passed them and I will start with Spiderman and X-Men and move on to Batman and Superman. the only true a-list marvel properties and coming close is Fantastic 4, since Dr Doom is still more iconic than all the mcu characters combined that even darth vader can bow to him. Reed Richards and Sue Storm are the closest thing marvel has to rivalling Superman and Lois Lane. 1. A list series don't need a cinematic universe to succeed. They can stand on their own
Would mcu characters have survived or be known if they did not become disneyfied and not put in a connected cinematic universe that is basically a lottery easy format for anyone regardless of status? A-List series can stand on their own and have their own separate film universes and keep finding success.
Spiderman has done it. Xmen has done it Superman has done it Batman has done it. Even Blade did it.
No MCU character can do it on their own. they cant leave disney land. separate all the mcu characters, put them in their own universe, remove all the billions disney spends in marketing and making them more like pixar than marvel from the comics, you will see them for the z list characters they always will be. They fact that mcu characters needed a cinematic universe crossover will never make them true A-listers like spiderman, xmen, batman, superman are for DC and Marvel. In a way, it is like a reality show.
2. A-List comic properties must have more than a decade long history of success and impact in any format you put them in. Movies, Games, Comics ,Cartoons/Animation
How many MCU characters have achieved this and can achieve it now even with the most powerful company in the world like Disney backing them? NONE. Outside of spiderman and xmen that has had decades long success in Movies, Games, Comics and Cartoons that disney had to banned them, mcu characters are soley defined by their disney movies that is already boring. Iron man is busy begging to join his new spidey game that is very anti mcu in content and more like his true peer. Batman lol. And everything else has failed for mcu disney. 3. This is the most important. A-Listers can and must be tested and prove their legacy and longevity.You know what has been so definite and earned of X-Men and Spiderman. that makes them the most iconic marvel series and the only real A-List series for marvel, they have been tested. When disney bought marvel they tried to push spiderman and xmen aside and it did not work. Infact marvel comics collapsed. For a while, they tried to make iron man the face of marvel, their answer to rich play boy Batman but spiderman always came back strong, his legacy endured, iron man could not have any impact anywhere else and his movies got worse which did not help it. In the end, Spidey WON.
Disney also did the same with xmen , they did worse to the point they once tried to make inhumans the new xmen , but as you see, Inhumans could not even take down the D- list mutants on a show like Gifted. LOL. Inhumans suffered for trying to be xmen. Also they stated stealing xmen characters and making them avengers, which failed, so people did not buy the twins (scarlet witch and quicksilver) retcon. they banned xmen from video games and even marvel posters, derailed their comics and stopped any merchandise with the word X and guess what.. xmen endured....not once did it hurt the series, instead it made people Laugh and always call out disney. it helped that xmen had movies like DOFP, First Class, LOGAN, Deadpool that were embarrassing all the mcu CHILDISH movies and keeping xmen very much alive.Even making them look better than the mcu because mcu got so childish.
That is what you call true A-Listers. you can test their legacy,impact and longevity and they will remain unshaken. You cant do that with mcu characters meaning they cannot be a-listers. Batman is getting tested now, and he will come back STRONG. we know so, as he has proven it before. see batman and robin and the TDK series. mcu characters are like most disney child stars. once the disney ride is over, they are over. they are not A-isters but disney by-products. When RDJ leaves....let's see who will give a shit about Iron Man. LOL. 4. The true source of been an A-List comic book property most come from Comics...Duh!Outside of spiderman, xmen, F4, superman, batman and wonder woman. How many mcu characters can say they became an established brand just from people reading their comics and comics that is niche market? once you remove the spiderman and xmen literacy from marvel, how many characters that stared mcu characters can we call a comic classic. xmen and spiderman have all the best marvel stories that will be read for generations to come once you are into marvel or just general comics. this is why marvel will never stop reprinting classics like Days of Future Past, The night Gwen Stacy Died or The Dark Phoenix Saga.
Many writers achieved superstardom from writing xmen, spiderman, superman and batman comics. Chris Claremont, Stan Lee, Jim Lee, Rob Liefield, and Frank Miller are the top of my head. how many can we say achieved superstardom from writing mcu characters comics even with disney backing them today and social media? fail
5. A-List characters must have their own unique separate mythology even though they exist in a shared universe with other super-heroes
Again what MCU Character has this. Remove spiderman, xmen, batman and superman from DC and Marvel worlds and their mythology is not wakened, infact they get stronger. For factual example. Batman in a world with no gods works better for him, this is part of the reason the Nolan movies were so good.
Xmen living in a world where people with powers are hated and feared works better for them. makes more sense than when they are lumped with avengers. This is the reasons a comic like DOFP was such a masterpiece when it was released in 1981, Claremont killed off all the other marvel heroes. mcu lives off brainless crossovers for survival.
Also you can make spin offs of xmen (xforce/new mutants) in movies or gifted and legion with no disney MARVEL backing or even xmen titled and they will succeed, you can make spin off of Batman like Gotham or even teen titans led by Robin with no actual batman in it and it will succeed. What can you do with iron man or gotg with no RDJ in a pixar mcu movie? MCU characters don't even have any personal mythology of their own.
This 5 factors is what you must earn to be an true A-LIST Comic IP. Hey, mcu fans, when your characters achieve this 5 factors like spiderman, xmen, superman or batman has then we can talk of putting them in the real a-list. which leads me to bonus 6
6. A-Listers dont beg or need others to join them.
SUperman is not needed for Matt Reeves Batman and vice versa. To this day, I will never understand why mcu fantics like formershamd and thatguy spent their time trying to force spiderman and xmen to join the MCU even going as far as to rewrite their mythology and lie all the time. Question, why would a-list characters fans need to beg others to join them? I did compare this with kim Kardashian begging beyonce to be her friend and beyonce said...NO THANKS. the way we xmen fans did until disney bought fox.
Regardless of my distaste for the MCU. I still always respected them as their own thing and wanted them to carry on like that, I just wanted xmen/spidermn to be separate from them. mcu fans could not do the same, meaning their characters were in reality, z-list beggers with disney money. it does goes back to my first point. A-Listers must stand alone.
sorry thisthis is the reality. They are not a listers, at least not like xmen, spiderman, superman,batman are.
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Post by summers8 on Sept 16, 2018 9:18:19 GMT
I wanted to make this a bonus point 7 but this is more of a throw way. A lists characters have fans who are proud of their series, regardless of their ups and downs. their fans can accept criticisms and the truth because they know their series can take it and come back strong. I am a proud and big xmen and batman fan even with lows like batman and robin and xmen origins. that is part of life. seems to me some mcu fans are too embarrassed to say they like mcu or to call mcu good, so they rather call themselves xmen, spdiderman or DC fans who just happens to hate their movies and adore mcu movies even though mcu movies are a worse adaption of their comic stories as proven.
everyone claims to be fans of spiderman, xmen, batman and superman. no one wants to admit they like GOTG dance offs and blow up city and make jokes avengers. thank goodness I genuinely dont like MCU, I dont have the nerve to pretend I like it, for good reasons.
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Post by Grabthar's Hammer on Sept 16, 2018 11:03:29 GMT
Hello! I just wanted to say that I wish you guys could come up with some sort of name for the rabid and/or biased MCU fans. Because I am a HUGE MCU fan but I'm not like you're saying lol.
I think the X-Men has no place in the MCU. I DO think Spider-Man fits in well though and that Fantastic Four would too. But yes, X-Men is perfect as is. Not in love with First Class like everyone, but Deadpool is some next level sh*t.. Logan was the closest a Marvel movie has come to The Dark Knight.. and I'm impatiently waiting for New Mutants. Heck, even Legion is unlike anything I've seen.
I think Iron Man could've MAYBE survive on it's own if it hadn't been a part of a cinematic universe. But I wouldn't really know what would happen with a lot of these characters until they are rebooted.. IF they are rebooted.
That is interesting though how you described it. Removing characters from their world and being as strong. Batman is definitely the strongest out of all of those. Even more than Superman. Supes had two good movies, two bad movies, two mixed movies. The Bat had a good movie, a good show, then two good movies, one mixed, one bad, then three good ones. I'm not personally a fan of Batman 66 or The Dark Knight Rises, but they were very successful both critically and financially. Then of course Gotham City has an incredible cast of characters. You could spin-off to Batwoman, Batgirl, every Robin, Nightwing, Catwoman, and even The Question. Plus, what I would consider, the most iconic rogues gallery of all time. Some who haven't even been explored in anything live-action, and others who could be recast forever with multiple different interpretations. Spider-Man would be the Marvel equivalent of that. Scarlet Spider, Spider-Gwen, Black Cat, Silver Sable, and similar to Batman, he has an iconic rogues gallery that hasn't even been entirely explored yet. Even Black Widow could be in just a Spider-Man universe. Oh wow.. and Deadpool. Now I kind of agree with you about Spider-Man being in his own universe.. but one with just him and Deadpool and everything would be complete. Okay I'm getting off track... I do love Spidey in the MCU.
Would The Incredible Hulk be considered under your criteria? Or possibly Daredevil?
Anyways, I can admit what I like, don't like, and I can take the criticism. I find entertainment or enjoyment in all of them, but know some of them are bad. I stuck with Thor after the first two awful movies and loved Ragnarok. Iron Man 2 sucked, but I'll give it a quick fast forward watch here and there. Age of Ultron was derivative. AI wants to destroy humanity to save humanity? Come on Whedon. Wtf. The third act of Captain America is a mess, and Civil War is way overrated. Aside from the airport scenes that I LOVE, I don't re-watch it very often. I think it has some poor writing and not only do I not buy that Captain America would do that, but also that Iron Man wouldn't understand why Rogers WOULD do it. If that happened to Rhodey he would do the same thing. GotGv2 had a nice emotional element, but a lot of the jokes WERE stupid. I could live without Drax and I don't think the firing of Gunn is bad for the franchise. They could use it as a fresh start and soft reboot with just Star-Lord, Rocket, and Groot then add a few character that would be much more interesting than Drax or Mantis. Like Nebula even. But I think Iron Man and The Winter Soldier are genuinely good movies and great comic book films. I feel like they both have the perfect balance of drama, action, and humor. Black Panther was awesome and culturally iconic.. The Avengers and Infinity War was like everything I've ever wanted to see since I was a kid.. and Ant-Man just makes me smile.
I've also liked all the Spider-Man movies to some degree. Obviously some are better than others like Spider-Man 2 of course. Love X-Men, X2, DOFP, Deadpool 1+2, and Logan. I even love those two previous Fantastic Four movies.
As for DC, Batman Returns, Batman Begins, and TDK are my favorite Batman movies. TDK being the best comic book film of all time, but oddly enough I think Batman Begins is the best BATMAN movie of all time. If that makes sense. Haven't really seen the original Superman movies since I was a kid, or possibly not at all, but I recognize how iconic they are. That plane scene from Superman Returns is awesome AF. Then as for the DCEU, MOS and BVS aren't really for me, but I appreciate what they were trying to do. I love the cast, but I don't really connect with the Snyder films for one reason or another. I don't mind watching them because I feel like they're visually stunning but both films feels like they have three interesting stories crammed into one bloated film. Suicide Squad isn't good but it's entertaining and has some fun performances. Wonder Woman is absolutely fantastic.
Anyways, as I said, I'm a big MCU fan, I can watch all that stuff repeatedly, even the bad.. except Inhumans. That sh*t was absolute garbage. But I never actively root for the failure of anything non-MCU. I'm always hoping the next comic book movie is awesome and does well. Shazam looks fun, Aquaman looks a bit dull as of right now but I have high hopes for the underwater scenes and I love Momoa in the role.
So it'd be cool if you didn't compare stuff I like to Kylie Jenner. When it's something like Iron Man, Avengers, Winter Soldier, Black Panther, Infinity War.. or the Netflix shows, I'd say the MCU is pretty great. When it's the other stuff it's more like a Dwayne Johnson movie. Charming lead, summer blockbuster action, entertaining, makes some money. The lesser ones won't stand the test of time, but I'll always have a pretty decent time watching them.
We're not all biased, blind, and unable to take criticism. I just don't like how everyone seems to want the thing they like to be crowned the superior of all everything. It's like.. who cares? This isn't sports. Every one can win, and we should be rooting for all comic book movies to be awesome and do well.
Anyways, interesting post! Now I feel like watching so many CBMs.
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Post by summers8 on Sept 16, 2018 11:41:56 GMT
Hello! I just wanted to say that I wish you guys could come up with some sort of name for the rabid and/or biased MCU fans. Because I am a HUGE MCU fan but I'm not like you're saying lol. I think the X-Men has no place in the MCU. I DO think Spider-Man fits in well though and that Fantastic Four would too. But yes, X-Men is perfect as is. Not in love with First Class like everyone, but Deadpool is some next level sh*t.. Logan was the closest a Marvel movie has come to The Dark Knight.. and I'm impatiently waiting for New Mutants. Heck, even Legion is unlike anything I've seen. I think Iron Man could've MAYBE survive on it's own if it hadn't been a part of a cinematic universe. But I wouldn't really know what would happen with a lot of these characters until they are rebooted.. IF they are rebooted. That is interesting though how you described it. Removing characters from their world and being as strong. Batman is definitely the strongest out of all of those. Even more than Superman. Supes had two good movies, two bad movies, two mixed movies. The Bat had a good movie, a good show, then two good movies, one mixed, one bad, then three good ones. I'm not personally a fan of Batman 66 or The Dark Knight Rises, but they were very successful both critically and financially. Then of course Gotham City has an incredible cast of characters. You could spin-off to Batwoman, Batgirl, every Robin, Nightwing, Catwoman, and even The Question. Plus, what I would consider, the most iconic rogues gallery of all time. Some who haven't even been explored in anything live-action, and others who could be recast forever with multiple different interpretations. Spider-Man would be the Marvel equivalent of that. Scarlet Spider, Spider-Gwen, Black Cat, Silver Sable, and similar to Batman, he has an iconic rogues gallery that hasn't even been entirely explored yet. Even Black Widow could be in just a Spider-Man universe. Oh wow.. and Deadpool. Now I kind of agree with you about Spider-Man being in his own universe.. but one with just him and Deadpool and everything would be complete. Okay I'm getting off track... I do love Spidey in the MCU. Would The Incredible Hulk be considered under your criteria? Or possibly Daredevil? Anyways, I can admit what I like, don't like, and I can take the criticism. I find entertainment or enjoyment in all of them, but know some of them are bad. I stuck with Thor after the first two awful movies and loved Ragnarok. Iron Man 2 sucked, but I'll give it a quick fast forward watch here and there. Age of Ultron was derivative. AI wants to destroy humanity to save humanity? Come on Whedon. Wtf. The third act of Captain America is a mess, and Civil War is way overrated. Aside from the airport scenes that I LOVE, I don't re-watch it very often. I think it has some poor writing and not only do I not buy that Captain America would do that, but also that Iron Man wouldn't understand why Rogers WOULD do it. If that happened to Rhodey he would do the same thing. GotGv2 had a nice emotional element, but a lot of the jokes WERE stupid. I could live without Drax and I don't think the firing of Gunn is bad for the franchise. They could use it as a fresh start and soft reboot with just Star-Lord, Rocket, and Groot then add a few character that would be much more interesting than Drax or Mantis. Like Nebula even. But I think Iron Man and The Winter Soldier are genuinely good movies and great comic book films. I feel like they both have the perfect balance of drama, action, and humor. Black Panther was awesome and culturally iconic.. The Avengers and Infinity War was like everything I've ever wanted to see since I was a kid.. and Ant-Man just makes me smile. I've also liked all the Spider-Man movies to some degree. Obviously some are better than others like Spider-Man 2 of course. Love X-Men, X2, DOFP, Deadpool 1+2, and Logan. I even love those two previous Fantastic Four movies. As for DC, Batman Returns, Batman Begins, and TDK are my favorite Batman movies. TDK being the best comic book film of all time, but oddly enough I think Batman Begins is the best BATMAN movie of all time. If that makes sense. Haven't really seen the original Superman movies since I was a kid, or possibly not at all, but I recognize how iconic they are. That plane scene from Superman Returns is awesome AF. Then as for the DCEU, MOS and BVS aren't really for me, but I appreciate what they were trying to do. I love the cast, but I don't really connect with the Snyder films for one reason or another. I don't mind watching them because I feel like they're visually stunning but both films feels like they have three interesting stories crammed into one bloated film. Suicide Squad isn't good but it's entertaining and has some fun performances. Wonder Woman is absolutely fantastic. Anyways, as I said, I'm a big MCU fan, I can watch all that stuff repeatedly, even the bad.. except Inhumans. That sh*t was absolute garbage. But I never actively root for the failure of anything non-MCU. I'm always hoping the next comic book movie is awesome and does well. Shazam looks fun, Aquaman looks a bit dull as of right now but I have high hopes for the underwater scenes and I love Momoa in the role. So it'd be cool if you didn't compare stuff I like to Kylie Jenner. When it's something like Iron Man, Avengers, Winter Soldier, Black Panther, Infinity War.. or the Netflix shows, I'd say the MCU is pretty great. When it's the other stuff it's more like a Dwayne Johnson movie. Charming lead, summer blockbuster action, entertaining, makes some money. The lesser ones won't stand the test of time, but I'll always have a pretty decent time watching them. We're not all biased, blind, and unable to take criticism. I just don't like how everyone seems to want the thing they like to be crowned the superior of all everything. It's like.. who cares? This isn't sports. Every one can win, and we should be rooting for all comic book movies to be awesome and do well. Anyways, interesting post! Now I feel like watching so many CBMs. thanks for your feedback. you seem like a sane mcu fan. I will pick the most important part of what you said.
1. xmen has no place in the MCU. true. the x-verse when remove from marvel is as big and even more compelling than the rest of the marvel universe. they have way too much and as you see they dont need mcu. when you can say no to Disney and still succeed. You are an a lister. also when disney tries to kill you and they fail. that is a real a-lister. disney can kill mcu in a flash. they cant kill spiderman or xmen regardless of how much they try. that has been proven.
your point about Legion is true. Legion alone is responsible for many alternate realities from xmen that strengthened their mythology and literacy. age of apocalypse maybe the most iconic. age of x too, i think this is why, it made sense to give Legion a tv show. also you can make a whole world from the hellfire club. that was meant to be a tv show too.
2. Batman is the strongest removed from his universe. true. reason he is so iconic and can come back stronger with TDK after batman and robin. he will bounce back from dawn of justice with matt reeves batman, I am confident of it.
you ask if iron man can survive on his own ,the answer is No. his mythology has always been week. the few he had that was good like the Mandarin they destroyed it. iron man is over , once RDJ retires. that is a true z list character. they are nothing with no disney backing and cinematic connection.
thanks for telling me I described it in an interesting way because it is the truth and reality of what made spiderman, xmen batman and superman a listers in a way MCU will never be. can you even think of iron man without thor? can you think of gotg outside of their movies? can you even think of antman? mcu characters have no identity of their own and have nothing outside of movies that are not even the best of comics or the most serious or respected. they are just lumped into this crossover cgi movies fuelled by the cash disney machine.
my comparison to kyle jenner was the money part. mcu fans thinks their characters are a listers because they make money from disney toy commercial movies..lol. .well so does kyle jenner. does not make her an a lister like kate winslet who is not even worth up to 100 million dollars. NO.
Also their Netflix show are not part of the MCU. disney even hates them because they are not childish enough. sad.
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Post by merh on Sept 16, 2018 11:47:39 GMT
What is it? Why do you have such a vast inferiority complex that you must try to tear down the competition rather than relish your own favorite product?
I came to comicbook fandom back in the 1960s. There was no problem reading Thor or Superman. I didn't have to shun one out of some pathetic loyalty.
I have no idea if I read the comics because I watched Marvel Super Heroes or vice versa. I was 5-6 yrs old. My sister read Xmen & Hulk. I believe FF as well. I read Cap & Thor. Probably Avengers. We both read Superboy & Supergirl. My sister liked Legion-Duo Damsel. I liked Mon-el.
Why is it such a silly There Can Be Only One?
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Post by summers8 on Sept 16, 2018 12:05:38 GMT
What is it? Why do you have such a vast inferiority complex that you must try to tear down the competition rather than relish your own favorite product? I came to comicbook fandom back in the 1960s. There was no problem reading Thor or Superman. I didn't have to shun one out of some pathetic loyalty. I have no idea if I read the comics because I watched Marvel Super Heroes or vice versa. I was 5-6 yrs old. My sister read Xmen & Hulk. I believe FF as well. I read Cap & Thor. Probably Avengers. We both read Superboy & Supergirl. My sister liked Legion-Duo Damsel. I liked Mon-el. Why is it such a silly There Can Be Only One? As expected. I break down the terms of what makes spiderman, xmen , batman and superman true a listers in a way mcu will never be,. the most iconic for DC and marvel.
mcu fans just insult my character, if anyone has a vast inferiority complex it is mcu fans. people who speak the truth have no
inferiority complex
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Post by Grabthar's Hammer on Sept 16, 2018 12:10:18 GMT
Hello! I just wanted to say that I wish you guys could come up with some sort of name for the rabid and/or biased MCU fans. Because I am a HUGE MCU fan but I'm not like you're saying lol. I think the X-Men has no place in the MCU. I DO think Spider-Man fits in well though and that Fantastic Four would too. But yes, X-Men is perfect as is. Not in love with First Class like everyone, but Deadpool is some next level sh*t.. Logan was the closest a Marvel movie has come to The Dark Knight.. and I'm impatiently waiting for New Mutants. Heck, even Legion is unlike anything I've seen. I think Iron Man could've MAYBE survive on it's own if it hadn't been a part of a cinematic universe. But I wouldn't really know what would happen with a lot of these characters until they are rebooted.. IF they are rebooted. That is interesting though how you described it. Removing characters from their world and being as strong. Batman is definitely the strongest out of all of those. Even more than Superman. Supes had two good movies, two bad movies, two mixed movies. The Bat had a good movie, a good show, then two good movies, one mixed, one bad, then three good ones. I'm not personally a fan of Batman 66 or The Dark Knight Rises, but they were very successful both critically and financially. Then of course Gotham City has an incredible cast of characters. You could spin-off to Batwoman, Batgirl, every Robin, Nightwing, Catwoman, and even The Question. Plus, what I would consider, the most iconic rogues gallery of all time. Some who haven't even been explored in anything live-action, and others who could be recast forever with multiple different interpretations. Spider-Man would be the Marvel equivalent of that. Scarlet Spider, Spider-Gwen, Black Cat, Silver Sable, and similar to Batman, he has an iconic rogues gallery that hasn't even been entirely explored yet. Even Black Widow could be in just a Spider-Man universe. Oh wow.. and Deadpool. Now I kind of agree with you about Spider-Man being in his own universe.. but one with just him and Deadpool and everything would be complete. Okay I'm getting off track... I do love Spidey in the MCU. Would The Incredible Hulk be considered under your criteria? Or possibly Daredevil? Anyways, I can admit what I like, don't like, and I can take the criticism. I find entertainment or enjoyment in all of them, but know some of them are bad. I stuck with Thor after the first two awful movies and loved Ragnarok. Iron Man 2 sucked, but I'll give it a quick fast forward watch here and there. Age of Ultron was derivative. AI wants to destroy humanity to save humanity? Come on Whedon. Wtf. The third act of Captain America is a mess, and Civil War is way overrated. Aside from the airport scenes that I LOVE, I don't re-watch it very often. I think it has some poor writing and not only do I not buy that Captain America would do that, but also that Iron Man wouldn't understand why Rogers WOULD do it. If that happened to Rhodey he would do the same thing. GotGv2 had a nice emotional element, but a lot of the jokes WERE stupid. I could live without Drax and I don't think the firing of Gunn is bad for the franchise. They could use it as a fresh start and soft reboot with just Star-Lord, Rocket, and Groot then add a few character that would be much more interesting than Drax or Mantis. Like Nebula even. But I think Iron Man and The Winter Soldier are genuinely good movies and great comic book films. I feel like they both have the perfect balance of drama, action, and humor. Black Panther was awesome and culturally iconic.. The Avengers and Infinity War was like everything I've ever wanted to see since I was a kid.. and Ant-Man just makes me smile. I've also liked all the Spider-Man movies to some degree. Obviously some are better than others like Spider-Man 2 of course. Love X-Men, X2, DOFP, Deadpool 1+2, and Logan. I even love those two previous Fantastic Four movies. As for DC, Batman Returns, Batman Begins, and TDK are my favorite Batman movies. TDK being the best comic book film of all time, but oddly enough I think Batman Begins is the best BATMAN movie of all time. If that makes sense. Haven't really seen the original Superman movies since I was a kid, or possibly not at all, but I recognize how iconic they are. That plane scene from Superman Returns is awesome AF. Then as for the DCEU, MOS and BVS aren't really for me, but I appreciate what they were trying to do. I love the cast, but I don't really connect with the Snyder films for one reason or another. I don't mind watching them because I feel like they're visually stunning but both films feels like they have three interesting stories crammed into one bloated film. Suicide Squad isn't good but it's entertaining and has some fun performances. Wonder Woman is absolutely fantastic. Anyways, as I said, I'm a big MCU fan, I can watch all that stuff repeatedly, even the bad.. except Inhumans. That sh*t was absolute garbage. But I never actively root for the failure of anything non-MCU. I'm always hoping the next comic book movie is awesome and does well. Shazam looks fun, Aquaman looks a bit dull as of right now but I have high hopes for the underwater scenes and I love Momoa in the role. So it'd be cool if you didn't compare stuff I like to Kylie Jenner. When it's something like Iron Man, Avengers, Winter Soldier, Black Panther, Infinity War.. or the Netflix shows, I'd say the MCU is pretty great. When it's the other stuff it's more like a Dwayne Johnson movie. Charming lead, summer blockbuster action, entertaining, makes some money. The lesser ones won't stand the test of time, but I'll always have a pretty decent time watching them. We're not all biased, blind, and unable to take criticism. I just don't like how everyone seems to want the thing they like to be crowned the superior of all everything. It's like.. who cares? This isn't sports. Every one can win, and we should be rooting for all comic book movies to be awesome and do well. Anyways, interesting post! Now I feel like watching so many CBMs. thanks for your feedback. you seem like a sane mcu fan. I will pick the most important part of what you said.
1. xmen has no place in the MCU. true. the x-verse when remove from marvel is as big and even more compelling than the rest of the marvel universe. they have way too much and as you see they dont need mcu. when you can say no to Disney and still succeed. You re an a lister. also when disney tries to kill and they fail. that is a real a-lister. disney can kill mcu in a flash. they cant kill spiderman or xmen regardless of how much they try. that has been proven.
your point about Legion is true. Legion alone is responsible for many alternate realities from xmen that strengthened their mythology and literacy. age of apocalypse maybe the most iconic. age of x too, i think this is why, it made sense to give Legion a tv show. also you can make a whole world from the hellfire club. that was meant to be a tv show too.
2. Batman is the strongest removed form his universe. true. reason he is so iconic and can come back stronger after TDK after batman and robin.
you ask if iron man can survive on his own ,the answer is No. his mythology has always been week. the few he had that was good like the Mandarin they destroyed it. iron man is over , once RDJ retires.
thanks for telling me I describe it in an interesting way because it is the truth and reality of what made spiderman, xmen batman and superman a listers in a way MCU will never be. can you even think of iron man without thor? can you think of gotg outside of their movies? can you even think of antman? mcu characters have no identity of their own and have nothing outside of movies that are not even the best of comics or the most serious or respected. they are just lumped into this crossover cgi movies fuelled by disney.
my comparison to kyle jenner was the money part. mcu fans thinks their characters are a listers because they make money from disney toy commercial movies..lol. .well so does kyle jenner. does not make her an a lister like kate winslet who is not even worth up to 100 million dollars. NO.
Also their Netflix show are not part of the MCU.
I didn't like the Mandarin reveal, but I'm a sucker for a Shane Black movie. I liked the PTSD storyline, but basically replacing the Mandarin with another rich CEO type villain was incredibly weak. Those types of villains are completely played out. Like even though I didn't like BvS too much, I liked that they went against the comics with Lex Luthor. Having him be more of a modern tech CEO than a bland businessman in a suit was interesting.
I can think of Iron Man without the others, but I can't think of the others without Iron Man. But I also can't think of Iron Man without RDJ.
The Netflix shows I consider MCU, but it isn't acknowledged nearly enough and they need to stop with that petty nonsense. When I think of the best comic book movies I think of the ones that are beyond comic book films which only two can have that distinction: The Dark Knight and Logan.
Then you have what I consider to be perfect comic book films: Batman Begins, Wonder Woman, X2, Spider-Man 2, The Winter Soldier, and Iron Man.
Then the straight up awesome comic book nerdgasm films that were: Batman 89, Batman Returns, X-Men, Spider-Man, Infinity War, Avengers, Deadpool 1+2, and Black Panther.
These are just my opinion of course. Many would remove Black Panther and probably have The Dark Knight Rises somewhere on there. Yes, The Avengers has a Whedon vibe which is a little TV like, but it was just one of those things that was just cool to see for the first time on screen. And I just have a personal connection to seeing Iron Man in theaters, so nobody on Earth could convince me it's not amazing, so there is some bias there.
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Post by sostie on Sept 16, 2018 13:25:21 GMT
So, many mcu fans are under the grand delusion that mcu characters are A-Listers because of the disney Billion dollar cash flow.
Actually I think most MCU fans revel in the fact that Marvel has managed to do so well with what are NOT considered A-List characters As defined by you, with an outcome already in mind So X-Men is not a shared Universe despite the existence of the Wolverine and Deadpool films? Superman and Batman are not despite BvS, Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman and Justice League? How do you know? Oh the irony. What studio owns and produces the X-Men films? Fox. Have you any comprehension what (reprehensible) organisation they are part of? What influence they have in areas such as politics? Has any part of Disney hacked murdered children's phones? How about swinging elections in countries around the world? Oh and the X-Men films are produced by Marvel Entertainment...which is owned by Disney. I've been buying & selling comics old and new for over 30 years...I don't remember that. And when did Marvel "collapse"? It's market share has been higher than DCs since 2001 and sales have been consistently higher than anytime in the 90s. They didn't steal anyone. Both characters were more commonly associated with being members of the Avengers (they were in X-Men comics for about a year before joining The Avengers and were not actually members of the X-Men). As long as the MCU does not use the word "mustant" or make reference to them being Magneto's children - itself a retcon revealed decades after they joined the Avengers - they can use them Actually Miller probably reached "star" status in the comics world for Daredevil. And you left out some arguably big(ger) names that didn't need those titles to become famous - Gaiman, Millar, Ellis, Alan Moore. Alternatively I will never understand why someone like you, who seems to talk about the importance, standing and legacy of the comics so much, is against it. You seem to forget X-Men and Avengers have crossed over for decades. They have shared members, and in some cases debuted in non A-List characters comics eg Wolverine in the Hulk, Psylocke in Captain Britain, Sabretooth in Iron Fist So much to address...but lifes too short to go into everything here.
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Post by politicidal on Sept 16, 2018 14:29:33 GMT
You're sincerely suggesting that Chris Pratt isn't an A-lister? Even his worst movie Passengers grossed twice its budget.
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 16, 2018 15:04:44 GMT
Whenever I read something from summers, it makes me wonder just how young this guy probably is to be so immature...
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Post by summers8 on Sept 16, 2018 15:08:34 GMT
So, many mcu fans are under the grand delusion that mcu characters are A-Listers because of the disney Billion dollar cash flow.
Actually I think most MCU fans revel in the fact that Marvel has managed to do so well with what are NOT considered A-List characters As defined by you, with an outcome already in mind So X-Men is not a shared Universe despite the existence of the Wolverine and Deadpool films? Superman and Batman are not despite BvS, Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman and Justice League? How do you know? Oh the irony. What studio owns and produces the X-Men films? Fox. Have you any comprehension what (reprehensible) organisation they are part of? What influence they have in areas such as politics? Has any part of Disney hacked murdered children's phones? How about swinging elections in countries around the world? Oh and the X-Men films are produced by Marvel Entertainment...which is owned by Disney. I've been buying & selling comics old and new for over 30 years...I don't remember that. And when did Marvel "collapse"? It's market share has been higher than DCs since 2001 and sales have been consistently higher than anytime in the 90s. They didn't steal anyone. Both characters were more commonly associated with being members of the Avengers (they were in X-Men comics for about a year before joining The Avengers and were not actually members of the X-Men). As long as the MCU does not use the word "mustant" or make reference to them being Magneto's children - itself a retcon revealed decades after they joined the Avengers - they can use them Actually Miller probably reached "star" status in the comics world for Daredevil. And you left out some arguably big(ger) names that didn't need those titles to become famous - Gaiman, Millar, Ellis, Alan Moore. Alternatively I will never understand why someone like you, who seems to talk about the importance, standing and legacy of the comics so much, is against it. You seem to forget X-Men and Avengers have crossed over for decades. They have shared members, and in some cases debuted in non A-List characters comics eg Wolverine in the Hulk, Psylocke in Captain Britain, Sabretooth in Iron Fist So much to address...but lifes too short to go into everything here. The truth.1- Done well in a cinematic universe fuelled by the Disney machine that made them pixar comedians and less marvel characters…not good enough to stand on their own.
2- Xmen is not a shared universe. They have spin off movies of actual xmen characters.
3- DCEU is a shared universe but the tim burton, batman nolan’s batman, reeves superman are not shared universes.
4- MCU characters have yet to have any identity outside of their connected movies. Disney has tried it for them and it has failed. I think this is why disney wants to force everything to have the mcu movie stamp.
hmm..remember the 2000s. I can read xmen/spiderman comics 616, I could read the alternate comics earth 1610, I could watch xmen evolution, I could play xmen legends/spiderman 2004 on PS2, I could watch X2/Spiderman 2. All had nothing to do with each other. all successful, all acclaimed, all showed spiderman and xmen can work in any format without even relying on another format. marvel brand was credible in every entertainment medium. movies, cartoons, game.
funny DC is still like this, marvel is not.
5- Oh right MCU fans don’t know marvel comics collapsed and disney blamed it on diversity typical for mcu fans. They dont read comics. Here is the factual proof. www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/marvel-comic-book-sales-falling-vp-diversity-women-a7662771.htmlAnother thing that disney destroyed. Marvel comics, along with marvel animation, now star wars. 6. To the contrary the twins were more associated with been xmen characters because they were mutants who went on to serve as avengers. they were major players in xmen evolution, Also they were mostly famous because magneto was their dad.
This is the difference between marvel fans and mcu fans. Marvel fans called out disney on this bullshit, mcu fans try and justify it. Well, looks like it did not convince anymore. Infact it only made comic fans obsess about the house of magnus, fans got their wish thanks to DOFP since pietro implied magneto was his dad, mcu killed of their own quicksilver and made Wanda a worthless person with no depth of where her powers comes from. Fail. so much for change...change for the worse. Miller is that mark miller or frank miller? For daredevil, who is more of an iconic characters compared to mcu characters.the only real character who could have rivalled batman. he is not an mcu character.Lol…when next I see mcu getting shoved into spiderman and xmen, I will still cringe as usual,good thing is the genre is already dead. Thank goodness we had X2 and Spiderman 2, TDK, Superman 2 to name a few. Real credible marvel and DC stand alone comic movies that succeeded and changed the game for the better , with no cinematic gimmicks and disney paying for flawless PR and faux fake reviews. That is true a lists. and they can still do it today if they have the right people... see logan or deapdool 2 or spiderman ps4 game and for future references.matt reeves batman
those top 6 things. you earn it, it takes years even decades. reply back when mcu is even close to earning one. maybe when I stop laughing at disney trying to shove tony stark in the spiderman game since they know the iron man IP is over once RDJ retires.
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Post by summers8 on Sept 16, 2018 15:13:49 GMT
You're sincerely suggesting that Chris Pratt isn't an A-lister? Even his worst movie Passengers grossed twice its budget. I never said he is not an alister. i said mcu IPS are not real a listers. what is even alist today? social media, instegram, faux hype? reality tv? what happened to the days of tom hanks, tom cruise, julia roberts and bruce willis?
what is gotg outside of their dance off movies in the cinematic cgi crossover world? that we cant even take seriously compared to X1 or batman begins that showed comic book genre is a legitimate film genre? this is part of how xmen or batman for instance earned their a list status.
ah yes, GOTG...The batman and robin of marvel or is it thor jokenock...am confused.
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 16, 2018 15:46:04 GMT
You're sincerely suggesting that Chris Pratt isn't an A-lister? Even his worst movie Passengers grossed twice its budget. I never said he is not an alister. i said mcu IPS are not real a listers. what is even alist today? social media, instegram, faux hype? reality tv? what happened to the days of tom hanks, tom cruise, julia roberts and bruce willis?
what is gotg outside of their dance off movies in the cinematic cgi crossover world? that we cant even take seriously compared to X1 or batman begins that showed comic book genre is a legitimate film genre? this is part of how xmen or batman for instance earned their a list status.
ah yes, GOTG...The batman and robin of marvel or is it thor jokenock...am confused.
Seems to me you don't even know what a-list means.
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Post by sostie on Sept 16, 2018 16:13:33 GMT
2- Xmen is not a shared universe. They have spin off movies of actual xmen characters.
So if not shared why references to events/characters from X-Men films in Wolverine films? Why the fuck is Professor X in Logan? You said it "collapsed" when Disney took over - 2009...and provide a link to a story from 8 years later. And was it a collapse? Marvel did and still have larger market share than any other publisher, and are selling more than they did a decade before. Bullshit. SW & QS appeared in 4 issues of X-Men, but never part of the X-Men themselves, before joining the Avengers, and then appeared as part of that team 211 and 130 times respectively. Each have appeared in X-Men/Uncanny X-Men 33 and 34 times...in 46 years. Both have mostly appeared in Avengers related titles. As for them being Magneto's children...they were well established as Avengers by then. Their parentage was revealed in Vision and the Scarlet Witch (an Avengers spin-off) in 1983. Up until then they were regular were members of The Avengers and had only appeared in X-Men 17 times. In fact I don't think either have actually been members of the X-men
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Post by ThatGuy on Sept 16, 2018 16:14:00 GMT
The only A-list character in X-men is Wolverine. The team X-men is A-list. Meaning: it doesn't matter who is on the team, as long as they are the X-men. Well, maybe if they have 1 or 2 mainstays. But wait, by what you say, even the team X-men aren't A-listers because they interact with other Marvel characters in the comics.
Also, you are saying because the MCU is a cinematic universe that none of those characters can be A-listers (funny that you mention Batman and Superman when they've been in a cinematic universe for the last 5 years). But the X-men are in a cinematic universe. The problem is is that Fox can't get the other movies going. The New Mutants isn't a spin-off. It's a part of that universe. Gambit wouldn't have been a spin-off because he is not the same character that was in X-men Origins. Same with Deadpool not being the same character that was in X-men Origins. Another character you mentioned was Spider-man. A character Sony was making into a cinematic universe and is still making into a cinematic universe with Venom and Black Cat and the Silver Sable movies. By the way, Sony really screwed Insomniac when it came to the PS4 game and Black Cat and another character. Another thing, Wesley Snipes wants to put Blade into the MCU. Does that not make him an A-lister by your standards now? Blade was never an A-lister.
And kid, The Avengers have surpassed the X-men in the movies when it comes to popularity. Blame Fox for crappy characterization. And faux hype. Is that your new thing for people liking characters more than the ones you want them to like?
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Post by summers8 on Sept 16, 2018 16:30:43 GMT
The only A-list character in X-men is Wolverine. The team X-men is A-list. Meaning: it doesn't matter who is on the team, as long as they are the X-men. Well, maybe if they have 1 or 2 mainstays. But wait, by what you say, even the team X-men aren't A-listers because they interact with othe Marvel characters in the comics. Also, you are saying because the MCU is a cinematic universe that none of those characters can be A-listers (funny that you mention Batman and Superman when they've been in a cinematic universe for the last 5 years). But the X-men are in a cinematic universe. The problem is is that Fox can't get the other movies going. The New Mutants isn't a spin-off. It's a part of that universe. Gambit wouldn't have been a spin-off because he is not the same character that was in X-men Origins. Same with Deadpool not being the same character that was in X-men Origins. Another character you mentioned was Spider-man. A character Sony was making into a cinematic universe and is still making into a cinematic universe with Venom and Black Cat and the Silver Sable movies. By the way, Sony really screwed Insomniac when it came to the PS4 game and Black Cat and another character. Another thing, Wesley Snipes wants to put Blade into the MCU. Does that not make him an A-lister by your standards now? Blade was never an A-lister. And kid, The Avengers have surpassed the X-men in the movies when it comes to popularity. Blame Fox for crappy characterization. And faux hype. Is that your new thing for people liking characters more than the ones you want them to like? Hmm,
1- batman and superman never needed a cinematic universe
2. xmen have no cinematic universe but spin off.
Kids, right that is who avengers appeal to and that is why they will never surpass xmen, batman, superman or spiderman. they are for kids. their mythology has no substance. its all cgi. they have no other thing gong for them, even their movies made the genre so hated, and unpopular.
kids grow up get into the adult stuff. if the avengers have surpassed spiderman or even xmen why are all their movies comedic and not taken seriously? why cant their fans let other be. avengers hated by grown ups, hated by long time comic fans, hated by most film makers.. what avengers movie is considered better logan or dofp or spiderman 2. the only thing avengers surpassed is Transformers
reply back when avengers surpasses winter solider.... then we can see if they can even match it against DOFP or batman begins in movies.
Infinty war surpassed DOFP by been 96% CGI that is 90% story telling. LOL. I get why it was called a retarded version of that movie
when will avengers fans stop begging other join them? boring.
poor winter solider as usual.
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Post by ThatGuy on Sept 16, 2018 16:33:11 GMT
The only A-list character in X-men is Wolverine. The team X-men is A-list. Meaning: it doesn't matter who is on the team, as long as they are the X-men. Well, maybe if they have 1 or 2 mainstays. But wait, by what you say, even the team X-men aren't A-listers because they interact with othe Marvel characters in the comics. Also, you are saying because the MCU is a cinematic universe that none of those characters can be A-listers (funny that you mention Batman and Superman when they've been in a cinematic universe for the last 5 years). But the X-men are in a cinematic universe. The problem is is that Fox can't get the other movies going. The New Mutants isn't a spin-off. It's a part of that universe. Gambit wouldn't have been a spin-off because he is not the same character that was in X-men Origins. Same with Deadpool not being the same character that was in X-men Origins. Another character you mentioned was Spider-man. A character Sony was making into a cinematic universe and is still making into a cinematic universe with Venom and Black Cat and the Silver Sable movies. By the way, Sony really screwed Insomniac when it came to the PS4 game and Black Cat and another character. Another thing, Wesley Snipes wants to put Blade into the MCU. Does that not make him an A-lister by your standards now? Blade was never an A-lister. And kid, The Avengers have surpassed the X-men in the movies when it comes to popularity. Blame Fox for crappy characterization. And faux hype. Is that your new thing for people liking characters more than the ones you want them to like? Hmm,
1- batman and superman never needed a cinematic universe
2. xmen have no cinematic universe but spin off.
Kids, right that is who avengers appeal to and that is why they will never surpass xmen, batman, superman or spiderman. they are for kids. their mythology has no substance. its all cgi. they have no other thing gong for them, even their movies made the genre so hated, and unpopular.
kids grow up get into the adult stuff. if the avengers have surpassed spiderman or even xmen why are all their movies comedic and not taken seriously? why cant their fans let other be. avengers hated by grown ups, hated by long time comic fans, hated by most film makers.. what avengers movie is considered better logan or dofp or spiderman 2. the only thing avengers surpassed is Transformers
reply back when avengers surpasses winter solider.... then we can see if they can even match it against DOFP or batman begins in movie.
Infinty war surpassed DOFP by been 96% CGI. LOL. I get why it was called a retarded version of that movie
when will avengers fans stop begging other join them? boring. No, kids are people that think they need things to be serious and dark for them to feel like they are adults. But anyway, you just want someone to argue X-men vs MCU with.
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Post by summers8 on Sept 16, 2018 16:34:22 GMT
2- Xmen is not a shared universe. They have spin off movies of actual xmen characters.
So if not shared why references to events/characters from X-Men films in Wolverine films? Why the fuck is Professor X in Logan? You said it "collapsed" when Disney took over - 2009...and provide a link to a story from 8 years later. And was it a collapse? Marvel did and still have larger market share than any other publisher, and are selling more than they did a decade before. Bullshit. SW & QS appeared in 4 issues of X-Men, but never part of the X-Men themselves, before joining the Avengers, and then appeared as part of that team 211 and 130 times respectively. Each have appeared in X-Men/Uncanny X-Men 33 and 34 times...in 46 years. Both have mostly appeared in Avengers related titles. As for them being Magneto's children...they were well established as Avengers by then. Their parentage was revealed in Vision and the Scarlet Witch (an Avengers spin-off) in 1983. Up until then they were regular were members of The Avengers and had only appeared in X-Men 17 times. In fact I don't think either have actually been members of the X-men marvel comics are a shell of their former self. that was the point
still you ignore the content of the twins. they are mutants who went to serve as avemgers, if that was not the case disney wont have panicked and changed it for movie reasons.
also notice how the change was rejected by marvel readers?
just keeping it real.
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Post by sostie on Sept 16, 2018 16:43:04 GMT
So if not shared why references to events/characters from X-Men films in Wolverine films? Why the fuck is Professor X in Logan? You said it "collapsed" when Disney took over - 2009...and provide a link to a story from 8 years later. And was it a collapse? Marvel did and still have larger market share than any other publisher, and are selling more than they did a decade before. Bullshit. SW & QS appeared in 4 issues of X-Men, but never part of the X-Men themselves, before joining the Avengers, and then appeared as part of that team 211 and 130 times respectively. Each have appeared in X-Men/Uncanny X-Men 33 and 34 times...in 46 years. Both have mostly appeared in Avengers related titles. As for them being Magneto's children...they were well established as Avengers by then. Their parentage was revealed in Vision and the Scarlet Witch (an Avengers spin-off) in 1983. Up until then they were regular were members of The Avengers and had only appeared in X-Men 17 times. In fact I don't think either have actually been members of the X-men
still you ignore the content of the twins. they are mutants who went to serve as avemgers, if that was not the case disney wont have panicked and changed it for movie reasons.
Disney didn't panic. Copyright does not allow the MCU to use the term "mutant" full stop. Did what they were allowed to do. Like including Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch...there was no theft at all...if there was where was the lawsuit?
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Post by summers8 on Sept 16, 2018 16:44:42 GMT
Hmm,
1- batman and superman never needed a cinematic universe
2. xmen have no cinematic universe but spin off.
Kids, right that is who avengers appeal to and that is why they will never surpass xmen, batman, superman or spiderman. they are for kids. their mythology has no substance. its all cgi. they have no other thing gong for them, even their movies made the genre so hated, and unpopular.
kids grow up get into the adult stuff. if the avengers have surpassed spiderman or even xmen why are all their movies comedic and not taken seriously? why cant their fans let other be. avengers hated by grown ups, hated by long time comic fans, hated by most film makers.. what avengers movie is considered better logan or dofp or spiderman 2. the only thing avengers surpassed is Transformers
reply back when avengers surpasses winter solider.... then we can see if they can even match it against DOFP or batman begins in movie.
Infinty war surpassed DOFP by been 96% CGI. LOL. I get why it was called a retarded version of that movie
when will avengers fans stop begging other join them? boring.
No, kids are people that think they need things to be serious and dark for them to feel like they are adults. um....serious and dark was marvel comics. even before batman went that way. this is a kids movie.right
Kids are in both scenes. to the contrary the myth is kids cant handle this stuff, that is the disney myth. harry potter was meant to be for kids?
LOL...What avengers movie is surpassed DOFP again? for once critics hit the nail when they called infinty war a DUMB version of DOFP. If i remember correct joss whedon kind of disowned avengers 1 and called it a bad movie. fast forward 2017 infinity war is 96% cgi movie, so worse than aveners 1. even black panther is deemed better. the same black panther that tried to be first class. Avengers did top michael bay. 96% cgi is proof.
LOL..Look at mcu fans having melt down when the fact is given to them for what makes true a list ips. My 4 nephew cant even watch MCU cartoons...show him an xmen, batman or spiderman older cartoon, he is hooked.
poor mcu...beggers cant be choosers. good thing they surpassed transformers. while xmen thanks to movies like logan arguably surpassed the gret TDK and the world cheered for more intellectual comic movies. what is pant man 2 about again? more thomas the tank engine? kids suprass this shit when they hit puberty.
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