|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 26, 2018 10:43:57 GMT
lol at the notion the analogy is even remotely similar. But this part: "To a slightly lesser extent, it's the same thing with some cults that call themselves a religion: You (the lowlife), tow the party line or we (the church) will make your life and/or the lives of your loved ones a living hell. We will forbid them from talking to you, or attending your wedding. In other words, whether they (the family) like it or not, the "guidelines" require the family to intimidate you into obedience." ..is pretty much the case. Except that it's not. The situation is entirely in reverse. People who whine about this pretend that the person had no idea what the repercussions of serious sin were. They would not be shunned if not for their actions. For example, you knew exactly what you were doing when you left LDS. If you did not realize the repercussions, then you were dishonest at the time of committing to the religion. There's no life or death involved for people who don;t believe it's a matter of life or death. There is no living hell that someone didn;t willingly walk into to get their way in other avenues. They would rather do their own thing than to be with their family. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Besides, they can always come back Religions are not in the business of shunning people as it goes against the goals to increase the number of Christians but that is not something that is a concern for the individual who no longer wants to practice. No one is holding a gun to the head of a simmer and if someone was compelled to join despite not wanting to, it in no way benefits the church to look for weak people like that since they don;t last unless they change. It is far better to have them change before baptism. From a whiney standpoint it makes no sense to be mad at a religion for proselytizing and then get mad when they lesson their numbers.
|
|
|
Post by Rodney Farber on Sept 26, 2018 14:01:03 GMT
I said that it adds to the PR disaster not that it exceeds any individual PR disaster event. But that raises a question, in the history of the LDS church what was the biggest PR disaster? I just listened to an interview from a leader in the Community of Christ in the UK. He said the Mormon conversion rate in the British Isles in the early 19th Century was something like 8,000 a year until it was made known in the church's own publication that polygamy was being practised in America. The rate dropped to a few hundred a year. Follow up article: CNN article I did not mean to belittle your comments. If we put "evil" on a scale from 1 to 100, I put the Mountain Meadows Massacre at 100. The point I was trying to make was that after LDS reached an evil score of 100, it can't get any worse. Mountain Meadows Massacre: Non-LDS were passing through Utah on their way west and were confronted by LDS members. After a three-day standoff, LDS members approached the the non-believers while waving a white flag. The LDS then proceeded to slaughter 120+ non-LDS. The LDS home office turned a blind eye. Only one person was arrested 17 years after the slaughter (so he had 17 years of freedom that he should not have had) and he was executed at age 65, near the end of his life anyway.
|
|
|
Post by geode on Sept 26, 2018 16:19:33 GMT
I said that it adds to the PR disaster not that it exceeds any individual PR disaster event. But that raises a question, in the history of the LDS church what was the biggest PR disaster? I just listened to an interview from a leader in the Community of Christ in the UK. He said the Mormon conversion rate in the British Isles in the early 19th Century was something like 8,000 a year until it was made known in the church's own publication that polygamy was being practised in America. The rate dropped to a few hundred a year. Follow up article: CNN article I did not mean to belittle your comments. If we put "evil" on a scale from 1 to 100, I put the Mountain Meadows Massacre at 100. The point I was trying to make was that after LDS reached an evil score of 100, it can't get any worse. Mountain Meadows Massacre: Non-LDS were passing through Utah on their way west and were confronted by LDS members. After a three-day standoff, LDS members approached the the non-believers while waving a white flag. The LDS then proceeded to slaughter 120+ non-LDS. The LDS home office turned a blind eye. Only one person was arrested 17 years after the slaughter (so he had 17 years of freedom that he should not have had) and he was executed at age 65, near the end of his life anyway. I was really making no statement whatsoever about grading the degree of "evil" of events that are damaging to the LDS church, just the degree of damage to the church as a public relations disaster. I think the Mountain Meadows Massacre was relatively minor compared to other events in that regard. You seem to be addressing a different subject, such as "What are the worst things the LDS church has done?" The Mountain Meadows Massacre was basically covered up for a long, long time and the subject successfully ignored by the church. As such it was not a PR disaster in the 19th Century. It certainly was troublesome for them but as you have noted the damage was contained. It is only in the last few years that they have accepted any responsibility for this horrible and tragic event. But because it was so long ago I don't think it has held all that much traction against the church outside of rather limited anti-Mormon circles. In my own experience as an active Mormon I was confronted by friends about the policy of banning black people from the priesthood, polygamy, the historicity of the Book of Mormon, by several but only one ever brought up the MMM. He had read "The Confession of John D.Lee" and wanted to know my opinion of it. Did you know that John D. Lee remained close with Brigham Young and welcomed in his home for many years after the murders took place? He was shunned by Brigham only after he was offered up as a scapegoat for the whole affair. Yes, he was guilty but so were several others. But perhaps even more on subject was the treatment of Juanita Brooks who wrote the first history of the MMM. She was a very faithful member but was widely vilified within the church and even her husband was not allowed to offer public prayers in meetings, etc.
|
|
|
Post by geode on Sept 26, 2018 17:03:42 GMT
But this part: "To a slightly lesser extent, it's the same thing with some cults that call themselves a religion: You (the lowlife), tow the party line or we (the church) will make your life and/or the lives of your loved ones a living hell. We will forbid them from talking to you, or attending your wedding. In other words, whether they (the family) like it or not, the "guidelines" require the family to intimidate you into obedience." ..is pretty much the case. Except that it's not. The situation is entirely in reverse. People who whine about this pretend that the person had no idea what the repercussions of serious sin were. They would not be shunned if not for their actions. For example, you knew exactly what you were doing when you left LDS. If you did not realize the repercussions, then you were dishonest at the time of committing to the religion. There's no life or death involved for people who don;t believe it's a matter of life or death. There is no living hell that someone didn;t willingly walk into to get their way in other avenues. They would rather do their own thing than to be with their family. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Besides, they can always come back Religions are not in the business of shunning people as it goes against the goals to increase the number of Christians but that is not something that is a concern for the individual who no longer wants to practice. No one is holding a gun to the head of a simmer and if someone was compelled to join despite not wanting to, it in no way benefits the church to look for weak people like that since they don;t last unless they change. It is far better to have them change before baptism. From a whiney standpoint it makes no sense to be mad at a religion for proselytizing and then get mad when they lesson their numbers. "People who whine about this pretend that the person had no idea what the repercussions of serious sin were. They would not be shunned if not for their actions. For example, you knew exactly what you were doing when you left LDS. If you did not realize the repercussions, then you were dishonest at the time of committing to the religion."
If you read the articles I posted you would find that Sam Young was fully aware of what was going to happen if he continued to challenge church leaders. My eyes were completely open to what would happen to me. But this really has nothing to do with the above statement which was about imposing strict obedience to church leadership. Knowing what will happen does not make the actions correct. Also, there were no sins here. serious or not. Standing up against a policy that hurts children is a sin?
If I was dishonest in making a commitment to join the LDS Church it happened when I was eight years old. Being a Mormon was all I had ever known. It was just a given that I would be baptized.
"There's no life or death involved for people who don;t believe it's a matter of life or death. There is no living hell that someone didn;t willingly walk into to get their way in other avenues. They would rather do their own thing than to be with their family. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Besides, they can always come back"
I really don't know what you are getting at here.
"Religions are not in the business of shunning people as it goes against the goals to increase the number of Christians but that is not something that is a concern for the individual who no longer wants to practice. No one is holding a gun to the head of a simmer and if someone was compelled to join despite not wanting to, it in no way benefits the church to look for weak people like that since they don;t last unless they change. It is far better to have them change before baptism."
This is one thing that is so wrong here. It seems that LDS Church leaders are aware that they will lose thousands of existing members over this and lose many conversions from the publicity but are willing to do it anyway just to defend their authority. Yes, people who would be baptized with the knowledge of this will now not do so.
"From a whiney standpoint it makes no sense to be mad at a religion for proselytizing and then get mad when they lesson their numbers."
Again, I don't know wheat you are getting at here.
|
|
|
Post by geode on Feb 14, 2019 9:15:05 GMT
Sam Young, the fellow excommunicated when I made the OP has gained more of a following since this happened. He just posted this on his FB page: "X-Mormon of the Year. How about that! Although it has never been my aspiration to become X-Mormon, I do consider this quite an honor. My real determination is to see changes made that will protect children. If this recognition helps raise even more awareness, then I love the award. I'd also like to give a big shout out to my friends in the X-Mormon community for being such an integral part of this movement. It might be a nice gesture to visit the link below and leave a comment for Main Street Plaza. Chanson puts a lot of work into this effort." Sam Young link
|
|
|
Post by geode on Feb 15, 2019 12:18:01 GMT
All this is about, is: we make the rules, you obey them. Do as we say. Do not question the higher and more knowledgeable authority. I guess as always, it is about control and dominance for absolute power that corrupts. Yes, the Mormon leadership's stress on "obedience" has been very high the last several years. As Steve Benson (grandson of Mormon president Ezra Taft Benson) said decades ago, it is all about "Pray, pay, obey." I think the last part has grown in prominence since he said this.
|
|
|
Post by goz on Feb 16, 2019 3:05:30 GMT
All this is about, is: we make the rules, you obey them. Do as we say. Do not question the higher and more knowledgeable authority. I guess as always, it is about control and dominance for absolute power that corrupts. Yes, the Mormon leadership's stress on "obedience" has been very high the last several years. As Steve Benson (grandson of Mormon president Ezra Taft Benson) said decades ago, it is all about "Pray, pay, obey." I think the last part has grown in prominence since he said this. How does any reasonable rational intelligent human being just 'pray pay and obey'?
|
|
|
Post by geode on Feb 16, 2019 5:00:43 GMT
Yes, the Mormon leadership's stress on "obedience" has been very high the last several years. As Steve Benson (grandson of Mormon president Ezra Taft Benson) said decades ago, it is all about "Pray, pay, obey." I think the last part has grown in prominence since he said this. How does any reasonable rational intelligent human being just 'pray pay and obey'? I don't think a reasonable rational intelligent human being can do this unless they essentially ignore rational thinking.
|
|