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Post by Terrapin Station on Sept 26, 2018 8:42:25 GMT
People aren't obligated to tip. You can't take a job with optional payment and expect everyone to treat it like an obligation. Blame restaurateurs who won't pay their staff sufficient wages so that they don't have to rely on people voluntarily paying more than the advertised price. Of course, people aren't obligated to tip, but it's kind of an understood thing that tipping is part of the deal. Unless the service is exceptionally bad, I would never even consider not leaving a tip. I think not tipping really is an asshole move. I remember once a customer left a waitress (this was when I was a busboy at the the Olive Garden) a nickel for the tip. She was not a bad waitress and she had a decent personality. But obviously she was also hot tempered. When she saw what the customer left her, she grabbed the nickel, ran out the door and threw the nickel at the customer and said something like "you can keep your fucking nickel!" and then was promptly fired. I know she wasn't professional, but I felt bad for her. You're approaching it as if it is an obligation however. If it's not an obligation then you can't get that upset when they don't do it. You have to understand that it's optional. |
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 26, 2018 10:30:31 GMT
I live Downunder and tipping is not expected nor required, but it depends on the customer. If I go out in a large group, we would tip and we can be quite demanding. If it is just 2 or a few, my experience is that we pay what is charged. Cash is not always on the cards now because many people pay by electronic funds as well. And yes, pay your staff a more generous wage and don't expect for customers to have to pay more than advertised. When I went to Amsterdam, my companion told me that tipping was considered borderline offensive. And that the standard thing was to just let them keep the change. So if the bill was 18 dollars and 25 cents, you'd give them a twenty dollar bill and that was that. When in Rome... Exactly! That is what I do just to round it up if cash is used. The thing is, tipping is a big part of US dining culture, it has become the standard norm. |
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Post by Nora on Sept 26, 2018 14:04:34 GMT
Ha! One time my friend and I went to this really nice restaurant in Minneapolis. This would have been in 1994. Anyway, my friend is an extremely demanding person. (We're actually not friends anymore) When we would go to a restaurant back in the day, and the hostess would say "smoking or non-smoking" and my friend's patented response was "no smoking, no children, hot waiter". My friend was a trannsexual and got attention wherever she went and usually got whatever she asked for because she was actually a highly intimidating person. And she didn't like it when we got a female server. And this time we got a female server, and my friend ran this poor girl ragged. I felt so bad for her. I was almost embarrassed. Anyway, our bill was around 120 dollars, kind of a big bill. My friend was not usually a good tipper and so, behind my friend's back, I gave the waitress 40 dollars for the tip, as I was almost positive that my friend had left next to nothing. Well, come to find out, my friend actually left a tip of 30 dollars, so that girl probably got the best tip of her life that night! And she deserved it! But that was funny. having demands on the sex (and hottness) of your waiter does sound over the top. plus it does say :some kind of issue: when you dont want one sex as your waiting staff. sounds like not being friends with the person is a smart choice. having worked as a waitress, hostess and a bartender before, i like to think i know the challenges on both sides at least a bit. as a customer what i find frustrating is when kitchens will not do modification or substitutes even if you offer to pay extra for the changed thing and its not like u want to substitute side salad for lobster like Rachel in Friends. the most ridiculous example being> i once requested a drink with less sugar syrup in it (i knew the product and i found it too sweet) and the server told me they were not allowed to modify things because then what if someone complained they didnt like it after the modification. i was like, ok, sounds a bit odd but i can see some of what you are saying, but i dont think it applies here since A]i have had this product before, the way its supposed to be and didnt like it because of all the sugar and B] the product is for me and I am demanding the change, then coming back and complaining wouldnt make much sense but yeah i get it people can be morons. We did have about 5 minute debate on this (no other customer was there at the time) and she ended up begrgingly giving me the product with less added sugar in it, i thanked her and was happy, but couldnt believe this took an actual negotiation. |
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Post by dirtypillows on Sept 26, 2018 15:40:59 GMT
When I went to Amsterdam, my companion told me that tipping was considered borderline offensive. And that the standard thing was to just let them keep the change. So if the bill was 18 dollars and 25 cents, you'd give them a twenty dollar bill and that was that. When in Rome... Exactly! That is what I do just to round it up if cash is used. The thing is, tipping is a big part of US dining culture, it has become the standard norm. Well, I guess I am getting some education here. This is all very interesting to me. Now my question would be how do servers make a living. I know here in the U.S. the pay rate for servers is very low, way below minimum wage. I mean back in 1990 it was something like 3 dollars per hour. |
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Post by dirtypillows on Sept 26, 2018 15:43:37 GMT
Of course, people aren't obligated to tip, but it's kind of an understood thing that tipping is part of the deal. Unless the service is exceptionally bad, I would never even consider not leaving a tip. I think not tipping really is an asshole move. I remember once a customer left a waitress (this was when I was a busboy at the the Olive Garden) a nickel for the tip. She was not a bad waitress and she had a decent personality. But obviously she was also hot tempered. When she saw what the customer left her, she grabbed the nickel, ran out the door and threw the nickel at the customer and said something like "you can keep your fucking nickel!" and then was promptly fired. I know she wasn't professional, but I felt bad for her. You're approaching it as if it is an obligation however. If it's not an obligation then you can't get that upset when they don't do it. You have to understand that it's optional.Hmmm... That has never really occurred to me before. And a part of me, I believe, always knew that tipping was optional, but that was way way in the back of my head. But I just always go into a restaurant with the notion that I am going to tip the server. |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Sept 26, 2018 16:07:08 GMT
You're approaching it as if it is an obligation however. If it's not an obligation then you can't get that upset when they don't do it. You have to understand that it's optional.Hmmm... That has never really occurred to me before. And a part of me, I believe, always knew that tipping was optional, but that was way way in the back of my head. But I just always go into a restaurant with the notion that I am going to tip the server. Yeah, and it sucks when you think, "Crap, I only made $2 (or whatever) this hour because these people didn't tip. I can't survive on $2 per hour." But the problem there is the restaurateurs. They're being cheap bastards while trying to entice customers. The customer isn't obligated to make up the difference in your salary, but the restaurant owner sure as hell isn't going to pay it, either. It becomes the wait staff's burden to make a gamble that people will be nice enough to voluntarily pay you a living wage that the cheap-ass resturant owner won't pay you. We could avoid all of that if the restaurant owners would simply pay a decent wage. |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Sept 26, 2018 16:12:03 GMT
Imagine if some builder said, "I want to entice people to buy more homes, so I'm going to charge 20% less than I had been charging--people will definitely buy more homes, and ultimately I'll make more money, if I can bring the price down noticeably. I'll just pay the construction workers $2 per hour so that I'm not out anything, and the construction workers can make up the difference in tips from the new homeowners, should the homeowners be kind enough to tip on top of the purchase price they pay to me."
Everyone could do business that way, and probably most business owners would like to. They're not out anything. It's just unfortunate that we've developed a convention where it's considered acceptable in some businesses for owners to pay employees next to nothing while they're supposed to rely on the kindness of customers to make up the difference . . . and meanwhile, the businesses usually keep slowing jacking up the price that the owner gets, so the customers start feeling squeezed, too.
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Post by dirtypillows on Sept 26, 2018 17:08:55 GMT
Ha! One time my friend and I went to this really nice restaurant in Minneapolis. This would have been in 1994. Anyway, my friend is an extremely demanding person. (We're actually not friends anymore) When we would go to a restaurant back in the day, and the hostess would say "smoking or non-smoking" and my friend's patented response was "no smoking, no children, hot waiter". My friend was a trannsexual and got attention wherever she went and usually got whatever she asked for because she was actually a highly intimidating person. And she didn't like it when we got a female server. And this time we got a female server, and my friend ran this poor girl ragged. I felt so bad for her. I was almost embarrassed. Anyway, our bill was around 120 dollars, kind of a big bill. My friend was not usually a good tipper and so, behind my friend's back, I gave the waitress 40 dollars for the tip, as I was almost positive that my friend had left next to nothing. Well, come to find out, my friend actually left a tip of 30 dollars, so that girl probably got the best tip of her life that night! And she deserved it! But that was funny. having demands on the sex (and hottness) of your waiter does sound over the top. plus it does say :some kind of issue: when you dont want one sex as your waiting staff. sounds like not being friends with the person is a smart choice. having worked as a waitress, hostess and a bartender before, i like to think i know the challenges on both sides at least a bit. as a customer what i find frustrating is when kitchens will not do modification or substitutes even if you offer to pay extra for the changed thing and its not like u want to substitute side salad for lobster like Rachel in Friends.the most ridiculous example being> i once requested a drink with less sugar syrup in it (i knew the product and i found it too sweet) and the server told me they were not allowed to modify things because then what if someone complained they didnt like it after the modification. i was like, ok, sounds a bit odd but i can see some of what you are saying, but i dont think it applies here since A]i have had this product before, the way its supposed to be and didnt like it because of all the sugar and B] the product is for me and I am demanding the change, then coming back and complaining wouldnt make much sense but yeah i get it people can be morons. We did have about 5 minute debate on this (no other customer was there at the time) and she ended up begrgingly giving me the product with less added sugar in it, i thanked her and was happy, but couldnt believe this took an actual negotiation. Ha! That's hilarious. I can totally see her doing that. She was definitely a spoiled princess, and I don't mean that as an insult at all. Rachel was charming. I do have to admit that "Friends" could be very funny at times. Phoebe was my favorite and Rachel was my second favorite. This is a side note, but last night I looked up famous INFP types and Lisa Kudrow is this type of personality, which makes me feel elevated in some way! It's just a fun thing to look up! |
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 27, 2018 9:36:07 GMT
Exactly! That is what I do just to round it up if cash is used. The thing is, tipping is a big part of US dining culture, it has become the standard norm. Well, I guess I am getting some education here. This is all very interesting to me. Now my question would be how do servers make a living. I know here in the U.S. the pay rate for servers is very low, way below minimum wage. I mean back in 1990 it was something like 3 dollars per hour. I believe the minimum wage in the US is only about $8.00 perhaps even less. This is appalling. However, that said, wages are also supposed to reflect each countries consumer price index and take into account inflations costs of goods and services. It would also depend on the business or company that one works for. There can be no absolute control in this regard.
The US may have low wages, but has lower prices. OZ has high wages but inflated prices. The minimum wage in OZ is supposed to be around $18.00per hour. However, you would pay around $5-6.00 for a cup of coffee. NZ has it rough. Low wages, inflated prices. Their minimum wage is around $15.00 and its residents may pay around 20% even more for goods and services in most respects, compared to OZ. For those that have very little money, or NO money, like the homeless, they need to scrape up a lessor value of dollar to get a cup of coffee say in the US, than those very poor and homeless in the OZ or NZ, who will need around $5.00 - 6.00 for the same beverage. What a conundrum aye!
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Post by Terrapin Station on Sept 27, 2018 9:41:40 GMT
My answer is to get rid of an economy based on money, and part of how we do that is by socializing the economy, but that's a long thing to get into. ;-)
A lot of things would be structured very differently than they are now if I were king.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 27, 2018 9:47:58 GMT
People aren't obligated to tip. You can't take a job with optional payment and expect everyone to treat it like an obligation. Blame restaurateurs who won't pay their staff sufficient wages so that they don't have to rely on people voluntarily paying more than the advertised price. Of course, people aren't obligated to tip, but it's kind of an understood thing that tipping is part of the deal. Unless the service is exceptionally bad, I would never even consider not leaving a tip. I think not tipping really is an asshole move. I remember once a customer left a waitress (this was when I was a busboy at the the Olive Garden) a nickel for the tip. She was not a bad waitress and she had a decent personality. But obviously she was also hot tempered. When she saw what the customer left her, she grabbed the nickel, ran out the door and threw the nickel at the customer and said something like "you can keep your fucking nickel!" and then was promptly fired. I know she wasn't professional, but I felt bad for her. Sounds like her temper got the better of her. Although she only got a nickel, that was the prerogative of the customer. How did she know that customer had anymore to give her? They might have been stony broke themselves. That nickel might have been given with as much of a generous gesture that the customer was able to afford. Or by the flip side of that coin, if she did have a hot temper, she might have displayed some rudeness to the customer and they may have felt she wasn't worthy of their tip. She certainly wasn't entitled to receive any tip at all and while it is an expectation, is this an unrealistic expectation? Prices and taxes are listed on the menu and bill and that is all a customer need pay. They are being placed under undue and unnecessary pressure because of the US custom, or so called etiquette of tipping. Is this really ethical? |
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Post by dirtypillows on Sept 27, 2018 19:57:53 GMT
Of course, people aren't obligated to tip, but it's kind of an understood thing that tipping is part of the deal. Unless the service is exceptionally bad, I would never even consider not leaving a tip. I think not tipping really is an asshole move. I remember once a customer left a waitress (this was when I was a busboy at the the Olive Garden) a nickel for the tip. She was not a bad waitress and she had a decent personality. But obviously she was also hot tempered. When she saw what the customer left her, she grabbed the nickel, ran out the door and threw the nickel at the customer and said something like "you can keep your fucking nickel!" and then was promptly fired. I know she wasn't professional, but I felt bad for her. Sounds like her temper got the better of her. Although she only got a nickel, that was the prerogative of the customer. How did she know that customer had anymore to give her? They might have been stony broke themselves. That nickel might have been given with as much of a generous gesture that the customer was able to afford. Or by the flip side of that coin, if she did have a hot temper, she might have displayed some rudeness to the customer and they may have felt she wasn't worthy of their tip. She certainly wasn't entitled to receive any tip at all and while it is an expectation, is this an unrealistic expectation? Prices and taxes are listed on the menu and bill and that is all a customer need pay. They are being placed under undue and unnecessary pressure because of the US custom, or so called etiquette of tipping. Is this really ethical? I think this is the likely scenario, Toasted Cheese, because she did have a hot temper. And I guess that tipping is just more of a cultural thing. I know people who carry around a paper tipping calculator, so they can decide how much they want to leave and do the numbers and then tip whatever. Almost everybody I know tips between 15-20% for adequate to good service, so it's just mostly kind of this understood thing over here. I never really even thought to question it. But I could understand when my friend said that (over in Europe), you just didn't really tip because it was sort of insulting to the server, but at the same time I was curious who would ever choose to be waiter in this case (as waiting tables can be very hard, demanding, draining work) at such a low pay rate. Who would choose that job? (You might as well get yourself a paper route.) At 2 or 3 dollars per hour, you wouldn't have enough money to fill your car up with gas to get to work, let alone survive. |
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Post by Utpe on Sept 27, 2018 20:45:38 GMT
I've never had the pleasure of being a food server for any restaurants but know a few who did on a part-time basis.
My cousin was employed with Denny's in the early 2000s. There was a lady at his table that couldn't make up her mind on how she liked the meat in her burger to be cooked. It was either too bloody or too burnt. The chef prepared it exactly the way she wanted.
After sending her plate back for the fifth time, he finally had enough and quit right there on the spot. I think he walked out with his uniform on and never returned, lol.
Good for him. Seems like a stressful job for such low pay and if you happen to get lousy tippers.
I'm sorry to hear the group of Churchgoers didn't give you anything other than advice on seeking the Lord some of the time. That would've burned my ass catering to such a large group of people.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Sept 27, 2018 20:53:18 GMT
I never tip. I think it's funny and I enjoy being rude. Just kidding.In all seriousness though, I don't tip if I don't like the waiter/waitresses attitude or service. Catman has heard it's best to leave a penny when you don't like the service so they know you didn't just forget. 
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 27, 2018 22:04:10 GMT
I've never had the pleasure of being a food server for any restaurants but know a few who did on a part-time basis. My cousin was employed with Denny's in the early 2000s. There was a lady at his table that couldn't make up her mind on how she liked the meat in her burger to be cooked. It was either too bloody or too burnt. The chef prepared it exactly the way she wanted.
After sending her plate back for the fifth time, he finally had enough and quit right there on the spot. I think he walked out with his uniform on and never returned, lol. Good for him. Seems like a stressful job for such low pay and if you happen to get lousy tippers. I'm sorry to hear the group of Churchgoers didn't give you anything other than advice on seeking the Lord some of the time. That would've burned my ass catering to such a large group of people. That woman had issues. I would have asked her leave. She was playing games for attention I would say, wasn't going to be satisfied, regardless of how her burger was cooked and perhaps was even mentally ill.
Not from the US, I have worked in kitchens for 7 yrs as a steward— dish pig  —not front of house and this was a secondary job to supplement income from my first. We were working just as hard as the wait staff, yet any tips the wait staff received was a divvy that only happened amongst the front of house staff. I never once felt entitled to receive any of the tips given, and while it was a bonus for the wait staff and I guess the anticipation of a tip may have been in the back of their minds, it was not an expectation or entitlement. The US hospitality industry is relying on customers to pay extra to the wait staff in order to keep their wage costs down to an absolute minimum and this is even exploitation on all fronts. |
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—not front of house and this was a secondary job to supplement income from my first. We were working just as hard as the wait staff, yet any tips the wait staff received was a divvy that only happened amongst the front of house staff. I never once felt entitled to receive any of the tips given, and while it was a bonus for the wait staff and I guess the anticipation of a tip may have been in the back of their minds, it was not an expectation or entitlement. The US hospitality industry is relying on customers to pay extra to the wait staff in order to keep their wage costs down to an absolute minimum and this is even exploitation on all fronts.