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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 2, 2018 18:36:31 GMT
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Post by politicidal on Oct 2, 2018 19:30:58 GMT
Before the DCEU, they were making shit movies like Green Lantern and Jonah Hex which certainly weren't inspired by Christopher Nolan. I blame WB's impatience and lack of planning contributed more in the scheme of things.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Oct 2, 2018 19:53:38 GMT
I will never understand the whole "Nolan wanted his Batman separate" thing.
Fuck him.
WB owns the rights.
They could have made all the Dark Knight sequels and spinoffs they wanted.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Oct 2, 2018 21:27:31 GMT
Dark Knight killed DCEU in two ways...(?)
That A) it was so damn good that no other CBM can compare to it (?). Look at Dark Knight Rises. That's a great movie! It just has the bad luck of being a sequel to, and getting comparisons to, Dark Knight. In comparison its not quite as good.
and 2) that is was dark; giving the impression that the only way DC movies can be successful and differentiate themselves from MCU is that they also have to be dark (?)
I haven't watched the video, and I wont, because it's just opinion. But is what I wrote what they're saying, more or less? I could MAYBE see that argument...
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Oct 2, 2018 21:28:15 GMT
Before the DCEU, they were making shit movies like Green Lantern and Jonah Hex which certainly weren't inspired by Christopher Nolan. I blame WB's impatience and lack of planning contributed more in the scheme of things. ^this^
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 2, 2018 22:04:29 GMT
Dark Knight killed DCEU in two ways...(?)
That A) it was so damn good that no other CBM can compare to it (?). Look at Dark Knight Rises. That's a great movie! It just has the bad luck of being a sequel to, and getting comparisons to, Dark Knight. In comparison its not quite as good.
and 2) that is was dark; giving the impression that the only way DC movies can be successful and differentiate themselves from MCU is that they also have to be dark (?)
I haven't watched the video, and I wont, because it's just opinion. But is what I wrote what they're saying, more or less? I could MAYBE see that argument...
The central thesis of the video is the misguided Nolanization of the early DCEU in an attempt to match the grit and heft of the Dark Knight...
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Oct 2, 2018 22:27:59 GMT
Dark Knight killed DCEU in two ways...(?)
That A) it was so damn good that no other CBM can compare to it (?). Look at Dark Knight Rises. That's a great movie! It just has the bad luck of being a sequel to, and getting comparisons to, Dark Knight. In comparison its not quite as good.
and 2) that is was dark; giving the impression that the only way DC movies can be successful and differentiate themselves from MCU is that they also have to be dark (?)
I haven't watched the video, and I wont, because it's just opinion. But is what I wrote what they're saying, more or less? I could MAYBE see that argument...
The central thesis of the video is the misguided Nolanization of the early DCEU in an attempt to match the grit and heft of the Dark Knight... Which is probably not accurate. I remember reading that ZS wanted to make serious 3 hour epics to differentiate it from Marvel's "lighter fare" He never mentioned Nolan.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Oct 2, 2018 22:48:26 GMT
It's not Nolan fault that Warner Bros is a incompetent studio that tried to mimic his work.
Maybe next time hire better writers and director instead of shitting on a good one.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 2, 2018 23:16:07 GMT
The central thesis of the video is the misguided Nolanization of the early DCEU in an attempt to match the grit and heft of the Dark Knight... Which is probably not accurate. I remember reading that ZS wanted to make serious 3 hour epics to differentiate it from Marvel's "lighter fare" He never mentioned Nolan.Why would he? I don't think he'd be one to wear his influences on his sleeve. I do believe that Nolan's work had an influence on the early DCEU. It's particularly apparent with Man of Steel. While it was easy to dissect Nolan after the fact, what proved harder was to replicate his execution. That takes a level of talent that no one involved could easily lay claim to. None of us were "in the room" so none of us can know for sure what was said or decided at the WB executive level. I find the off-hand dismissal of any reasonable theory somewhat presumptuous. The author of the video presents an idea and uses facts and conjecture to back up his thesis in a credible way. He also shares with his audience what he believes would have been a more sound approach.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Oct 2, 2018 23:19:28 GMT
I remember reading that ZS wanted to make serious 3 hour epics to differentiate it from Marvel's "lighter fare" None of us were "in the room" so none of us can know for sure what was said or decided at the WB executive level.Which means that his theory is no more valid or likely than anyone else's.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 2, 2018 23:28:09 GMT
None of us were "in the room" so none of us can know for sure what was said or decided at the WB executive level. so you admit that his theory is no more valid or likely than anyone else's? got it! I do. Quite freely in fact. I'm usually not much for theory crafting or forensic postmortems of abject failure. This video intrigued me not because the author is particularly eloquent or persuasive. What I found interesting in his notes is the logical layering of ideas, one building on the other in a plausible way, until you came to a conclusion that almost seemed inevitable. In short, it's as good a theory as any.
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 2, 2018 23:56:40 GMT
I will never understand the whole "Nolan wanted his Batman separate" thing. Fuck him. WB owns the rights. They could have made all the Dark Knight sequels and spinoffs they wanted. Yup. They could easily have expanded that to be the starting point of the DCEU. After all, they wanted an older Batman in the DCEU. The TDK trilogy would already have set that up perfectly.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Oct 2, 2018 23:58:50 GMT
I will never understand the whole "Nolan wanted his Batman separate" thing. Fuck him. WB owns the rights. They could have made all the Dark Knight sequels and spinoffs they wanted. Yup. They could easily have expanded that to be the starting point of the DCEU. After all, they wanted an older Batman in the DCEU. The TDK trilogy would already have set that up perfectly. BRILLIANT!
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 2, 2018 23:59:01 GMT
Dark Knight killed DCEU in two ways...(?)
That A) it was so damn good that no other CBM can compare to it (?). Look at Dark Knight Rises. That's a great movie! It just has the bad luck of being a sequel to, and getting comparisons to, Dark Knight. In comparison its not quite as good.
and 2) that is was dark; giving the impression that the only way DC movies can be successful and differentiate themselves from MCU is that they also have to be dark (?)
I haven't watched the video, and I wont, because it's just opinion. But is what I wrote what they're saying, more or less? I could MAYBE see that argument...
The central thesis of the video is the misguided Nolanization of the early DCEU in an attempt to match the grit and heft of the Dark Knight... I think one big mistake was handing the reigns to Snyder and being asked to "nolanyze" the DCEU... then told him to start it off with Superman. Which dumb idiot thought that was going to turn out good?
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Oct 3, 2018 0:03:58 GMT
My bottom line on all of this is as follows...
A mistake was made in giving Zack Snyder total control over the DCEU. He is an excellent visual sylist, but wouldn't know an emotional or resonant story beat if smacked him in the face. IMO They made that mistake based on several points: A) He'd had a huge hit with 300. B) He'd had a lesser hit with Watchmen, but between those two it showed that he could make these types of movies, handle FX, and that he had grasp on DC. C) I don't know that this one is a fact, but Nolan and Snyder are both married to women who are also producers who work on their movies. Nolan and his wife must have met Snyder and his wife and the four of them must have hit it off like peas in a pod. That must have sealed the deal.
He must have seemed like a good choice at the time. Even I was kind've excited at the notion of a more... "aggressive" and modern version of Superman.
Unfortunately Snyder is not a brilliant director, being more Michael Bay than Steven Spielberg. So the movies he would direct were somewhat doomed from the get go.
Suicide Squad was directed by someone else, David Ayer, but someone who ALSO skews towards dark material. Look at his previous work and you'll see. Also, cramming too many characters in a non-linear story line didn't help.
In other words, by the time they got to the more focused and upbeat Wonder Woman, the damage was done. If they'd have started with the tone of Wonder Woman we might all be talking a different beat.
When it was Justice Leagues turn the transition to more heroic was too late, and the fact that Snyder left the movie in an unfinished mess, and that it was handed over to another director, Joss Whedon, who's stylistic tone is completely different, and you were sure to have a mess. Throw in disinterested Afflecks and mustache fiascos and there was little hope.
A lot rest on the shoulders of Aquaman. It NEEDS to succeed.
Wonder Woman 1984 will most likely do well, and Shazam is neither here nor there. If that one flops I don't think anyone will care either way. But Aquaman... if that flops, the brand will be hurt almost beyond repair. It'll show that these characters cant do well on their own, and that people don't want to see them.
That's not true of course. But it will seem that way. And the studio will be hard pressed to continue caring about DCEU.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 3, 2018 0:07:52 GMT
The central thesis of the video is the misguided Nolanization of the early DCEU in an attempt to match the grit and heft of the Dark Knight... I think one big mistake was handing the reigns to Snyder and being asked to "nolanyze" the DCEU... then told him to start it off with Superman. Which dumb idiot thought that was going to turn out good? If I had to put myself in their shoes momentarily, I suspect that after brilliantly revitalizing one of their most beloved icons, they only thought it would be logical to go after their second most beloved icon.
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Post by scabab on Oct 3, 2018 6:36:50 GMT
I like the DCEU movies....Man of Steel was the best DC movie outside of a Nolan Batman movie since.....Batman 1989? So was Wonder Woman actually.
Id take Batman and Superman and Justice League over the crap they were putting out before like Catwoman, Jonah Hex and Green Lantern.
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Caesium137
Sophomore
I am simply not there
@cobalt
Posts: 654
Likes: 305
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Post by Caesium137 on Oct 3, 2018 8:38:43 GMT
It certainly gave high standards to aspire to, but as others have said I enjoyed Man of Steel and WW. The ensemble movies where just underwhelming rather than straight up bad.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Oct 3, 2018 10:18:39 GMT
My bottom line on all of this is as follows...
A mistake was made in giving Zack Snyder total control over the DCEU. He is an excellent visual sylist, but wouldn't know an emotional or resonant story beat if smacked him in the face. IMO They made that mistake based on several points:
I have literally no idea what you are basing this on. Just take Watchmen; this is one of the most emotionally resonant CBMs ever made, I just point out:
- Dr Manhattans guilt and leaving-scene - Rohrschachs entire arc - ending in him sacrificing himself for his believes (one of the most devastating scenes, in the film you see NiteOwl's pain & loss reflect it, in the comic Owl had sex in the backjard after the NY-squid massacre shock) - NiteOwl and Specre re-dicovering/feeling themselves and escaping depression by saving people again (a theme reused by Incredibles well too).
The same applies to others of Snyder's films (as far as I have seen them). I could relate more to his Superman than the ones before as he had a proper character arc - a troubled young man trying to find his identidy, until he does in the end. Even the horror film Dawn of the Dead eliciting many emotions and sentiments.
That's a nonsensical statement. With his technical, mise en scene & cinematography skills Snyder evidently is more comparable to Bay (exceeding him significantly IMO). In his themes and emotional beats Snyder is more like Spielberg without ever being over-sentimental or any forced tear jerking.
In the end Snyder's a director of his own having developed his own style (unlike the broad mass of directors), as such he is standing somewhere between Bay and Spielberg IMO.
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Post by Larcen26 on Oct 4, 2018 18:09:12 GMT
Dark Knight killed DCEU in two ways...(?)
That A) it was so damn good that no other CBM can compare to it (?). Look at Dark Knight Rises. That's a great movie! It just has the bad luck of being a sequel to, and getting comparisons to, Dark Knight. In comparison its not quite as good.
and 2) that is was dark; giving the impression that the only way DC movies can be successful and differentiate themselves from MCU is that they also have to be dark (?)
I haven't watched the video, and I wont, because it's just opinion. But is what I wrote what they're saying, more or less? I could MAYBE see that argument...
We find a point where we disagree lenlen. I have never liked The Dark Knight Rises, and not just in comparison to The Dark Knight, which is an amazing film. TDKR is a convoluted mess to me pretty much across the board.
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