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Post by stargazer1682 on Oct 12, 2018 20:44:06 GMT
I was just thinking about it, sure, Adam dies in that form; and it was certainly impressive as hell, so to speak, to have the First do its little diatribe shifting through all of the big bads of the series, but that wasn't really the person that died; at best it was an amalgamation of several beings who dies, and at worst it was a man with other parts attached to him, but not strictly his true or natural form. The First didn't take on the Mayor's snake/demon form.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 15, 2018 19:50:52 GMT
No reason to think it couldn't.
Besides, at best, Adam was his own being. He was no longer the soldier (I'm assuming) who died. He had his own memories and personality (again, I'm assuming). It's doubtful he had the memories of the polgara or any other demon used to build his body.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Oct 15, 2018 22:03:55 GMT
No reason to think it couldn't. Besides, at best, Adam was his own being. He was no longer the soldier (I'm assuming) who died. He had his own memories and personality (again, I'm assuming). It's doubtful he had the memories of the polgara or any other demon used to build his body. That's kind of my point though; whatever Adam was at his core, the machinery or demon parts slapped onto him shouldn't make him a new entity. Some of those components, like the technology, aren't even alive to begin with; it'd be like the First manifesting as a someone wearing or carrying a walkman or something. Although I suppose therein may lie the answer; that those things become more like affectations for the manifestation and is no different than the suit the Mayor wore or Glory's dress. The nature of the First's ability to appear as other beings, but only those who were dead, is still a bit odd though. Like, what is it that it's mimicking? Surely not their soul, especially if it's appearing as vampires (and especially for those vampires it appears to who have been re-ensouled). And would Glory have a soul?
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 16, 2018 13:00:05 GMT
Bingo. It's no different than manifesting a change of clothes the person wasn't wearing when they died. How many outfits as Buffy did the First go through?
Looks like once a person dies, the First has access to everything that person/being ever was: appearance, memories, mannerisms, personality, etc. I wonder if it's because The First has infested everything that ever came after it. As if every being has at least a tiny spark or a potential for evil. And that allows The First to be able to mimic them once they've died.
Which of course poses the question: Could there ever be a being born so pure, so good, The First would be unable to corrupt and therefore unable to mimic?
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Post by stargazer1682 on Oct 16, 2018 13:46:39 GMT
Bingo. It's no different than manifesting a change of clothes the person wasn't wearing when they died. How many outfits as Buffy did the First go through? Looks like once a person dies, the First has access to everything that person/being ever was: appearance, memories, mannerisms, personality, etc. I wonder if it's because The First has infested everything that ever came after it. As if every being has at least a tiny spark or a potential for evil. And that allows The First to be able to mimic them once they've died. Which of course poses the question: Could there ever be a being born so pure, so good, The First would be unable to corrupt and therefore unable to mimic? That's a very interesting theory, sort of like a virus that's spread from one generation to the next; acting an ethereal black-box that reports back to the First upon release. But then for someone like Buffy to come back, does that mean she no longer has that piece of the First inside her? That the First has its Buffy remnant, allowing it to know her up to that point of her death, but nothing beyond it? For that matter, could that have actually been the difference Spike's chip detected that allowed him to hurt her? Wouldn't that be something if the thing that made people "human" according to this chip was it's innate potential for evil? Of course that doesn't mean Buffy was suddenly a saint or could never do wrong. It does bring up the question of whether or not Dawn would posses a remnant of the First? My personal theory for her creation would actually involve a temporal fold containing a timeline where she was conceived and encompasses her life up to the point she was revealed in the series; and that timeline was grafted to reality. In that case the answer would be yes, because the physical form of Dawn would have been the natural product of Hank and Joyce Summers producing a child; and the Key was simply funneled into that child. Alternatively though, if she were just "poof" created out of thin air, then I would think she probably didn't have the First in her. Of course in terms of who would be "pure" and born free of the First, my first thought would be Jesus. The narrative would track, being born of a virgin, in order to be free to original sin; which might be argued to be another term for the First. I'd almost want to say his death and resurrection would achieve the same as Buffy's, but if he were born without sin/the First, then he'd have nothing to free himself of. On the other hand though, his death and resurrection would sort of be proof of concept that he never had the First in him, that he died and the First can't appear as Jesus; and when he appears to the apostles and proves he is who he says he is by having Thomas put his hand in his side where the spear had pierced him, it'd almost be like saying, "see, I'm not the First, I'm solid, you can physically touch me." And I suppose anyone who lived a genuinely pious life and worked to legitimately overcome evil and only do good might weaken that remnant of the First within in them; and perhaps make it harder for the First to connect with or mimic after death. While those who give in to evil present the clearest picture. But what would that entail in contrast to someone who was neither all that good or all that evil? I'd wished they'd explore why the First didn't appear to Willow as Tara. I mean, I know the behind the scenes reasons, but it creates something of a question in the narrative why it would appear to Willow as someone she didn't really know and have any hopes of that appearance having any affect? I'd like to think that it means Tara didn't really die, or that her death resulted in some other process, whereby the First would be denied access to her form - like, if it turned out her mom was actually a Fairy Queen who had taken human form ; and when she died and subsequently when Tara died, they reverted to their fairy form (only Tara didn't know about her true nature, because her mom died before she could tell her).
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Post by stargazer1682 on Oct 23, 2018 13:51:16 GMT
Here's a follow-up, should Glory have been subjected to the First? She wasn't human, just bound to one.
And what about vampires in this theory of "First infection"? The vampire forms occur after they've died, when that hypothetical First remnant should be released.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 23, 2018 14:26:00 GMT
Here's a follow-up, should Glory have been subjected to the First? She wasn't human, just bound to one. I would say The First isn't just relegated to humans. It's an evil infection in everything: human, vampire, demon, god, PTB. So I see no reason Glory wouldn't be subjected to The First.
I'm not quite sure I understand the question.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Oct 23, 2018 14:36:45 GMT
Working from your theory on the First: If the First can only mimic someone after they've died, ostensibly that would be because that "spark" or remnant of the First had been released, and reconnected with the First; providing it with that person's memories and form. But Vampires are post-death and everything they do would be after that release.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 23, 2018 15:00:07 GMT
Working from your theory on the First: If the First can only mimic someone after they've died, ostensibly that would be because that "spark" or remnant of the First had been released, and reconnected with the First; providing it with that person's memories and form. But Vampires are post-death and everything they do would be after that release.Sure. But I'm not still not following. Are you implying The First should not be able to mimic vampires?
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Post by stargazer1682 on Oct 23, 2018 21:48:09 GMT
If the part of the First that gives it that person's form and memories are released after death, sure; because as soon as they die, that little bit of the First flies back to papa and everything afterwards wouldn't be recorded or learned or whatever. It's more an observation about the theory than what we see in the show; since clearly the First can mimic vampires and know their thoughts. So there again, what quality of death grants the First the holographic parameters of a person, but still produces data for it after death, that the First is continually fed their appearance and knowledge?
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 23, 2018 22:35:50 GMT
Well, the person died to become a vampire, so The First has access to everything the person was. Hence why it can mimic vampires. Because the human died.
I didn't say it's a continual feeding of data and all their thoughts though. After all, if it was, then The First would know everything about Buffy and her plans.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Oct 24, 2018 0:08:04 GMT
But that's my point, the person dies in order for the vampire version of himself to rise, meaning even the vampire form should be after the First's "spark" has left, but the First appears to have access not only to that, but their knowledge too; knowledge that only existed after their death.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 24, 2018 13:40:34 GMT
But that's my point, the person dies in order for the vampire version of himself to rise, meaning even the vampire form should be after the First's "spark" has left, I'm really not following. I don't understand what the issue is. Why wouldn't The First have access to a dead person's form? Regardless of whether or not they're a vampire now, they died. So the First can mimic them. There is no argument here. The First can mimic anyone who has died, whether they're walking around or not. That much was established by the show. And why does it matter that a vampire forms after The First's "spark" has left? It's the demon that animates the body, not the First. Plus, the demon would have its own spark. So yes, the vampire forms after the First's spark has left. But that doesn't really matter. I have no problem with an ancient, omnipresent metaphysical being that can invade dreams being able to gleam knowledge from those it torments.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Oct 24, 2018 14:50:32 GMT
The whole theory, if I'm at least understanding you correctly, stems from the fact that The First does not have access to that form or knowledge before a person dies. The idea then being that some essence - the so-called "spark" - of the First has be inside each person since birth, recording what they look like and what they think, like some sort of evil fit-bit. Then, upon death, that "spark" is released, flies back to the First, who downloads the information it collected over each person's lifetime and incorporates it into its repertoire. The problem is that anything that happens to that persona after death, whether it's resurrected or turned into vampire, that spark is no longer recording if it's been released to the First upon death. And if, as you say, a vampire has it's own separate spark from the one the human had in life, the First still wouldn't have that until after the vampire dies. Except that completely undermines the concept from the show that it can only appear as someone after death, and only knows what they knew as a consequence of them being a dead person. If you're going to argue that it's reach is greater than that, then there's no reason the First shouldn't have been able to mimic a living person or learn what they know before they die; much less learn what Buffy and the Scoobies plans were ahead of time. If it were omnipresent, then it would have been at the meeting where Buffy laid out the plans to call all of the Potentials and every part of their strategy.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 24, 2018 16:57:35 GMT
Sure, I can agree with that. But that's not a problem since it would have no influence on the First being able to mimic the human who died. Even if they are a vampire. So regardless of whether it's recording or not, the First can mimic them because they are dead.
Not at all. It'd be like psychics. Just because they can read minds, doesn't mean they can shape shift. We saw the First could influence Buffy's dreams all the way back in Amends, yet it couldn't appear as her until after she died.
I'm not saying it can't. Maybe it can learn, but it can't mimic. The two aren't one and the same.
It can be anywhere at any time, not necessarily everywhere at the same time. It's not omniscient.
I may have to change my theory to fit the facts, but the facts are solid: The First can appear and mimic any person or being who has died. The how and the why are unclear. But there is no arguing that it shouldn't be able to appear as demons, gods, or vampires. We know it can because we saw it.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Oct 24, 2018 19:52:27 GMT
I'm not disagreeing that it can, it's just more a question of how and trying to apply that theory to those facts. And just to be clear, omnipresent means to be everywhere at once; so I was just pointing out that, that couldn't be the case, otherwise the First would have been present when the Scoobies hatched their plan.
The thing of it is, is that the First was limited by who was dead; and by all rights it was more than simply taking the appearance of someone. When it appears to Faith as the First, he says how he is Richard Wilkins and the First; and while I can't recall specific dialog to this effect, my impression has always been that the First came to know everything that the person it becomes knew, suggesting it's tapping into something very deep and powerful, but again, something that can't be accessed while a person is still living. This would also support that whatever it does to achieve its appearance is more than simple mimicry, since there should be no reason not to mimic the appearance of someone living.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 25, 2018 13:20:33 GMT
The thing of it is, is that the First was limited by who was dead; and by all rights it was more than simply taking the appearance of someone. When it appears to Faith as the First, he says how he is Richard Wilkins and the First; and while I can't recall specific dialog to this effect, my impression has always been that the First came to know everything that the person it becomes knew, suggesting it's tapping into something very deep and powerful, but again, something that can't be accessed while a person is still living. Hence my suggestion that there's a spark of evil inside every sentient being that the First can tap into when we die.
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