|
Post by Fox in the Snow on Nov 3, 2018 0:42:46 GMT
Thanks for that extended list london777, will enjoy looking over that in a bit more detail.
|
|
|
Post by petrolino on Nov 3, 2018 1:39:44 GMT
Thanks for the extended list london, I'm looking forward to scanning the entries in a bit more detail.
|
|
|
Post by Aj_June on Nov 3, 2018 6:08:06 GMT
Thanks a lot, london777. Once I have gone through all the 693 titles I will add to the list some movies that should be among my top 250 non-English movies and that are missing in the consolidated list above. May also comment on some of the movies that are already among 693 titles. Cheers.
|
|
Seto
Sophomore
@seto
Posts: 311
Likes: 225
|
Post by Seto on Nov 3, 2018 23:47:41 GMT
Nice to see a few more Anime's in the extended list.
Yes 'Spirited Away' is the one everyone knows, but 'Akira' 'Ghost in the Shell' and 'Grave of the Fireflies' are arguably much more important to the genre.
|
|
|
Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Nov 5, 2018 1:39:16 GMT
Given the politics of China I am sure their critics were mainly thinking along national lines. But the list is obviously political since they are not asking the viewing public (ultimately the voice that counts the most in historical appraisal of art).
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is one of the few films I fastforwarded through because I got tired of the flying.
If the list was meant to reflect importance and influence on world cinema, then A TRIP TO THE MOON and NOSFERATU would be in the top 5. I think Melies would be No 1.
Since they included silent films and short films (La Jetee) then Melies' should qualify. It may be quaint by today's standards but in terms of impact on the medium, it is unsurpassed in importance. Murnau should be represented too.
|
|
|
Post by london777 on Nov 5, 2018 2:36:22 GMT
1) Given the politics of China I am sure their critics were mainly thinking along national lines. 2) But the list is obviously political since they are not asking the viewing public (ultimately the voice that counts the most in historical appraisal of art). 3) Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is one of the few films I fast-forwarded through because I got tired of the flying. 4) If the list was meant to reflect importance and influence on world cinema, then A TRIP TO THE MOON and NOSFERATU would be in the top 5. I think Melies would be No 1. Since they included silent films and short films (La Jetee) then Melies' should qualify. It may be quaint by today's standards but in terms of impact on the medium, it is unsurpassed in importance. 5) Murnau should be represented too. Thanks PP (if I may call you that). You raise some good points. 1) Some of the Chinese critics were obviously thinking along national lines, and others were not. Aj_june suggested this may be largely down to accessibility of foreign movies. But the same would be even more true of the USA and UK. You have only to look in the threads on this site, especially outside the "Classics" board, to see that "cinema" means "US cinema" in the US and "US and UK cinema" in the UK. 99% of filmgoers are totally ignorant of foreign language films. But on the rare occasions when they get a chance to watch one, they usually like what they see. 2) If it would be down to the viewing public, the Top 100 would comprise films like "Avengers", "Jurassic World", and "Ant Man and the Wasp". But the viewing public already has its poll, one less debatable and more accurate than the BBC poll could ever be. It is called Box Office Receipts. If you are happy to accept that as the arbiter of merit, then you have no problem. Since you appreciate Murnau and Méliès, I guess you are not. There are also practical difficulties in selecting who to ask among the viewing public. It was fairly easy for the BBC to find out which are the most prominent film critics and historians around the world. Some of those who replied were obviously more influenced by "historic importance" than others. Others may have picked films most enjoyable to watch for those with no knowledge of film history to encourage them to widen their horizons. 3) Yes, the wirework soon gets old. I do not know if it has got old to Chinese viewers as well as I am not into marital arts movies. I am guessing it was a tradition carried over from Chinese theatre so would seem less strange in China? But as mikef6 posted above: "Introduced me to this fantasy style of Chinese martial arts storytelling. It was new to me and, I think, to a lot of the U.S. population". I think more than that, it was an introduction to Chinese cinema generally, showing that the Chinese were now producing quality big-budget popular movies and not just low-budget politically slanted stuff, so, though not a top 100 film in merit, it was Top 100 in influence. 4) Méliès' "A Trip to the Moon" (1902) was nominated by two voters 5) Three Murnau films were nominated: --- Nosferatu (1926) by three voters --- The Last Laugh (1924) by three voters --- Faust (1926) by one voter
|
|
|
Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Nov 5, 2018 3:02:58 GMT
Thanks PP (if I may call you that). You raise some good points. 1) Some of the Chinese critics were obviously thinking along national lines, and others were not. Aj_june suggested this may be largely down to accessibility of foreign movies. That was one of the conditions I was thinking of.
In the end though, the list is as relevant as a UN general meeting. You have different cultures, different preferences. Trying to fashion a list of the absolute greatest films of world cinema along such rules is ultimately chaotic.
Movies like the Avengers will be forgotten in ten years (actually it is already forgotten--only the serial nature of the franchise keeps it in circulation).
The fact remains that for world art, prior to the 20th century and the invention of the professional critic, there were two sources for popularity in art--public response and professional artist acknowledgement through inspiration or homage.
If those two considerations were factored into it, the list would be very different.
Melies and Murnau had massive impact on film to this day. Even if one feels their films were imperfect, the influence and pioneering qualities should still be significant.
In school we were told the two streams of thought in film were fantasy (Melies) and realism (Lumiere brothers).
Clearly Melies' school has had the greatest public impact on the medium (the same was true of literature prior to the 20th).
|
|
|
Post by Aj_June on Nov 6, 2018 17:23:27 GMT
london777 I will mention only a few movies at a time and keep bumping this thread every once in a while. Just to make it clear - I have no complains about this list. I know that lists are finite and so it is not possible to have all the movies of your choice. My only motive is to build on this list and help others know movies I consider worthwhile. A director that I find is completely missing from the lists of 209 film critics is Jerzy Kawalerowicz. I recommend two of his movies to everyone. 1. Mother Joan of the Angels (1961) - "Matka Joanna od aniołów is a film against dogma. That is the universal message of the film. It is a love story about a man and a woman who wear church clothes, and whose religion does not allow them to love each other. They often talk about and teach about love—how to love God, how to love each other—and yet they cannot have the love of a man and a woman because of their religion. This dogma is itself inhuman. The devils that possess these characters are the external manifestations of their repressed love. The devils are like sins, opposite to their human nature. It is like the devils give the man and woman an excuse for their human love. Because of that excuse, they are able to love." – Jerzy KawalerowiczI saw this movie in 2016 and was so highly impressed by it that I spent a couple of days trying to gather more information about the events that inspired this film. It's loosely based on documented historic incident of mass hysteria that took place in the French town of Loudun in 1634. The mass hysteria was noted among Ursuline nuns who all became smitten by a handsome priest but behaved in a way that authorities thought they were possessed by devils. "Kawalerowicz is keen to keep us on our toes. His roving camera is particularly unnerving. It will occasionally switch to a first person perspective, only to break off the approach moments later. Such a technique simultaneously draws us in closer to the increasingly claustrophobic goings-on while also being suggestive of another presence. During these instances we are brought, quite literally, face-to-face with Mother Joan and Winnicka's startling performance of a woman zigzagging through her inner torments and the eight devils which supposedly have a hold on her. Much the same is also true of Father Suryn, himself subject to his own internal turmoil. Gaunt and sickly seeming (a cough plagues him throughout), he self-flagellates, denies himself experience of the outside world and is continually drawn into a debate of self-doubt. At one point the actor portraying Suryn, Mieczyslaw Voit, is also called upon to play a rabbi. The two characters share a scene, and a conversation, in which the nature of good and evil is discussed. The doubling is unavoidable, furthering this idea of a man in constant conflict. ~ (Credit: Anthony Nield, thequietus.com/articles/08845-mother-joan-of-the-angels-jerzy-kawalerowicz-dvd)"It won a special jury prize at Cannes film festival. This movie is vastly superior to majority of Hollywood movies that have attempted to make movies on possession and ended up contributing to tainted horror genre . It has more substance, better acting and successfully creates far more intense atmosphere. Even though it is a film of Europe and of a time period that we are not too familiar with, the symbolism used in the film is not difficult to grasp. I would rate it even better than Ken Russel's The Devils. 2. Night Train (1959) - I remember a thread by spiderwort on movies that have been shot in train. I don't know if Night Train was mentioned or not but I feel it is worth watching. It is often considered among the very best from Polish cinema and after having watched it twice I totally agree with its high praise. The movie reminds you of French new wave as well as Hitchcock but only in theme and not style. " Night Train is a taut, compelling, and insightful psychological portrait of emotional need, hysteria, and mob behavior. Using acute angle shots, high contrast lighting, and narrow, claustrophobic framing, Jerzy Kawalerowicz creates an unnaturally heightened sense of environment and perceptional acuity that reflect the passengers’ subconscious duress and sublimated emotions: the visually occluded, odd angle shot as Jerzy enters the compartment; the birds eye view of the opening sequence that is repeated in the image of the passengers encircling a suspect by an open field graveyard; the consecutive episodes of mirrored reflections cast against the train window, first of the lawyer’s wife, then of Marta, that figuratively reveal their innate loneliness, confusion, and feelings of abandonment; Straszek’s desperate and reckless attempt to gain Marta’s attention and sympathy. By modulating the innocuous and lighthearted tone of the holiday-bound train excursion to present a sinister manifestation of base human instincts and the darkness of the soul, Kawalerowicz further illustrates the often destructive myopia, persecution, and skewed perspective that results from a collective mentality. In the film’s haunting and metaphoric denouement, a priest replaces a fallen graveyard cross that had been used as a weapon of violence: a solemn reminder of the human need for compassion and atonement in an environment of fear and vengeance." ~ Credit: filmref.com
|
|
|
Post by london777 on Nov 8, 2018 1:48:37 GMT
I will ... keep bumping this thread every once in a while ... my only motive is to build on this list and help others know movies I consider worthwhile. A director that I find is completely missing from the lists of 209 film critics is Jerzy Kawalerowicz. I recommend two of his movies to everyone. Good catch on Jerzy Kawalerowicz. I hope you and others continue "building". Two other directors who were all the rage at one time (retrospectives at the British Film Institute, articles in the posh papers, etc) but seem to have disappeared from view (not just from this list) are: The Swiss, Alain Tanner, a pioneer of minimalist movies in the '70s when "less is more" was a design mantra (and a damned good one!) The Argentinian, Leopoldo Torre Nilsson, who was the first from his nation to win acclaim in non-Hispanic countries. I thought his late effort, "The Seven Madmen" (1973) was totally original. I would love to re-watch it.
|
|
|
Post by london777 on Nov 8, 2018 13:57:47 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Aj_June on Nov 8, 2018 16:44:46 GMT
I will ... keep bumping this thread every once in a while ... my only motive is to build on this list and help others know movies I consider worthwhile. A director that I find is completely missing from the lists of 209 film critics is Jerzy Kawalerowicz. I recommend two of his movies to everyone. Good catch on Jerzy Kawalerowicz. I hope you and others continue "building". Two other directors who were all the rage at one time (retrospectives at the British Film Institute, articles in the posh papers, etc) but seem to have disappeared from view (not just from this list) are: The Swiss, Alain Tanner, a pioneer of minimalist movies in the '70s when "less is more" was a design mantra (and a damned good one!) The Argentinian, Leopoldo Torre Nilsson, who was the first from his nation to win acclaim in non-Hispanic countries. I thought his late effort, "The Seven Madmen" (1973) was totally original. I would love to re-watch it. Thanks a lot London for mentioning those names. Regretfully, I have very limited exposure to South American film directors but I will keep Leopoldo Nilsson in mind in future.
I remember you mention in an old thread that you have a very high degree of respect for the works of Satyajit Ray. Just wanted to ask do you know about a filmmaker called Ritwik Ghatak? Many who like Satyajit Ray also appreciate Ghatak. His movies The Cloud-Capped Star (1960) and Ajantrik (1958) might interest you (especially The Cloud-Capped Star). I haven't seen them but I mention those two films because I believe those two movies may appeal to you.
|
|
|
Post by petrolino on Nov 9, 2018 19:30:44 GMT
I will ... keep bumping this thread every once in a while ... my only motive is to build on this list and help others know movies I consider worthwhile. A director that I find is completely missing from the lists of 209 film critics is Jerzy Kawalerowicz. I recommend two of his movies to everyone. Good catch on Jerzy Kawalerowicz. I hope you and others continue "building". Two other directors who were all the rage at one time (retrospectives at the British Film Institute, articles in the posh papers, etc) but seem to have disappeared from view (not just from this list) are: The Swiss, Alain Tanner, a pioneer of minimalist movies in the '70s when "less is more" was a design mantra (and a damned good one!) The Argentinian, Leopoldo Torre Nilsson, who was the first from his nation to win acclaim in non-Hispanic countries. I thought his late effort, "The Seven Madmen" (1973) was totally original. I would love to re-watch it.
Two of the great Swiss directors came up together and supported each other, Alain Tanner and Claude Goretta (both men were born in 1929). Sadly, their films don't get distributed on dvd here in U K. I did post about one of Goretta's films here some time back, 'The Lacemaker' (1977). I wish they'd issue Tanner's 'The Salamander' (1971) on dvd.
|
|
|
Post by teleadm on Nov 9, 2018 20:53:12 GMT
Since I've recently seen Rome Open City 1945 by Roberto Rossellini, and thought I would check up that list again just for curiosity, well it wasn't on the list, and as a matter of fact none of Rossellini's movies are on the list.
|
|
|
Post by delon on Nov 9, 2018 21:27:56 GMT
Since I've recently seen Rome Open City 1945 by Roberto Rossellini, and thought I would check up that list again just for curiosity, well it wasn't on the list, and as a matter of fact none of Rossellini's movies are on the list. It is on the extended list that london777 posted on the second page. Three critics included Rome Open City in their top 10. Edit: Paisan, Germany Year Zero and Stromboli also received votes. However, no mention of Europa '51 which is IMO Rossellini's best film, alongside Rome Open City.
|
|
|
Post by london777 on Nov 9, 2018 21:41:14 GMT
Since I've recently seen Rome Open City 1945 by Roberto Rossellini, and thought I would check up that list again just for curiosity, well it wasn't on the list, and as a matter of fact none of Rossellini's movies are on the list. It is on the extended list that london777 posted on the second page. Three critics included Rome Open City in their top 10. Paisan (1946) was nominated 3 times Germany Year Zero (1948) twice Stromboli (1950) twice
|
|
|
Post by petrolino on Nov 10, 2018 15:51:03 GMT
That's an excellent idea. Please take your time and do it as you please. Here, for Aj_June and anyone else who may be interested, are the 693 titles nominated, in alphabetical order. The numerals in front are the number of times that film was nominated. The films are listed with the definite or indefinite article first, as their makers named them, rather than in what I understand is standard US indexing order. Sorry about that, BAT! I hope anyone interested in viewing more non-English language movies will find some titles to investigate here. I certainly have. Ideally I would have liked to have entered the directors and dates in separate fields so I could issue lists in those orders as well, but it was too much copy-and-paste for my poor old eyes. This lot took long enough. I could go back and do that if readers are interested. Total: 2090 nominations (Top Tens of 209 critics/film historians, etc) Hi london.
Thanks so much for preparing this list, drawing it up so clearly, all the hard work that's gone into it, it's greatly appreciated.
I'm pretty weak on international filmmaking of the last 20 years and often gravitate towards the films of 20th century directors who are still active. Some of the newer titles here that I've seen, I do enjoy, and this encourages me. For example, I recently saw Jacques Audiard's 'A Prophet' and found it to be a fine film with some powerful moments.
The list is overwhelming due to length, size and sheer numbers, but I see this as an indicator of just how long cinema's been going. It's getting like books now, or rock n roll, in that a top 100 list simply won't cut it. I'd be looking at a top 500 films for my own tastes, at least, and at least half of them would probably be horror movies.
But perhaps they could also, at some point, branch out collectively to include less films by the same directors and create a different kind of list. An "alternate" list, if you will. Still a list of quality favourites, but highlighting some of the more obscure movies they cherish. I have seen lists like this before. Some countries always seem to have go-to-guys which is understandable, often due to the lack of exposure granted others. For example, we all know Ingmar Bergman produced an extraordinary amount of great Swedish movies, that's never in question, but I need to explore the work of great directors like Victor Sjostrom (seen 2), Gustaf Molander (seen 0), Arne Mattsson (seen 1), Bo Widerberg (seen 1).
It's a great list though, I can't knock it. I will look up some individual titles and shortlist a few to track down. Where do I go first? Well, Valerio Zurlini's 'Indian Summer' (1972) sounds truly fascinating ...
Thanks again!!
|
|
|
Post by delon on Nov 10, 2018 16:03:06 GMT
Here, for Aj_June and anyone else who may be interested, are the 693 titles nominated, in alphabetical order. The numerals in front are the number of times that film was nominated. The films are listed with the definite or indefinite article first, as their makers named them, rather than in what I understand is standard US indexing order. Sorry about that, BAT! I hope anyone interested in viewing more non-English language movies will find some titles to investigate here. I certainly have. Ideally I would have liked to have entered the directors and dates in separate fields so I could issue lists in those orders as well, but it was too much copy-and-paste for my poor old eyes. This lot took long enough. I could go back and do that if readers are interested. Total: 2090 nominations (Top Tens of 209 critics/film historians, etc) Hi london.
Thanks so much for preparing this list, drawing it up so clearly, all the hard that work into it, it's greatly appreciated.
I'm pretty weak on international filmmaking of the last 20 years and often gravitate towards the films of 20th century directors who are still active. Some of the newer titles here that I've seen, I do enjoy, and this encourages me. For example, I recently saw Jacques Audiard's 'A Prophet' and found it to be a fine film with some powerful moments.
The list is overwhelming due to length, size and sheer numbers, but I see this as an indicator of just how long cinema's been going. It's getting like books now, or rock n roll, in that a top 100 list simply won't cut it. I'd be looking at a top 500 films for my own tastes, at least, and at least half of them would probably be horror movies. but
Perhaps, they could at some point branch out collectively to include less films by the same directors and create a different kind of list. Still a list of quality favourites, but highlighting some of the more obscure movies they cherish. I have seen lists like this before. Some countries always seem to have go-to-guys which is understandable, often due to the lack of exposure granted others. For example, we all know Ingmar Bergman produced an extraordinary amount of great Swedish movies, that's never in question, but I need to explore the work of great directors like Victor Sjostrom (seen 2), Gustaf Molander (seen 0), Arne Mattsson (seen 1), Bo Widerberg (seen 1).
It's a great list though, I can't knock it. I will look up some individual titles shortlist a few to track down. Where do I go first? Well, Valerio Zurlini's 'Indian Summer' (1972) sounds truly fascinating ...
Thanks again!!
Alain Delon's performance in Indian Summer is generally considered as one of his best. Highly recommended! Cronaca Familiare (1962) and The Desert of the Tartars (1976) are also a 'must see' films from director Zurlini who I think is one of Italy's most underappreciated directors.
|
|
|
Post by petrolino on Nov 10, 2018 16:27:02 GMT
Hi london.
Thanks so much for preparing this list, drawing it up so clearly, all the hard that work into it, it's greatly appreciated.
I'm pretty weak on international filmmaking of the last 20 years and often gravitate towards the films of 20th century directors who are still active. Some of the newer titles here that I've seen, I do enjoy, and this encourages me. For example, I recently saw Jacques Audiard's 'A Prophet' and found it to be a fine film with some powerful moments.
The list is overwhelming due to length, size and sheer numbers, but I see this as an indicator of just how long cinema's been going. It's getting like books now, or rock n roll, in that a top 100 list simply won't cut it. I'd be looking at a top 500 films for my own tastes, at least, and at least half of them would probably be horror movies. but
Perhaps, they could at some point branch out collectively to include less films by the same directors and create a different kind of list. Still a list of quality favourites, but highlighting some of the more obscure movies they cherish. I have seen lists like this before. Some countries always seem to have go-to-guys which is understandable, often due to the lack of exposure granted others. For example, we all know Ingmar Bergman produced an extraordinary amount of great Swedish movies, that's never in question, but I need to explore the work of great directors like Victor Sjostrom (seen 2), Gustaf Molander (seen 0), Arne Mattsson (seen 1), Bo Widerberg (seen 1).
It's a great list though, I can't knock it. I will look up some individual titles shortlist a few to track down. Where do I go first? Well, Valerio Zurlini's 'Indian Summer' (1972) sounds truly fascinating ...
Thanks again!!
Alain Delon's performance in Indian Summer is generally considered as one of his best. Highly recommended! Cronaca Familiare (1962) and The Desert of the Tartars (1976) are also a 'must see' films from director Zurlini who I think is one of Italy's most underappreciated directors.
Thanks Delon!
I've not seen much from Valerio Zurlini but I think 'Black Jesus' (1968) is fantastic.
|
|