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Post by goz on Nov 9, 2018 23:26:53 GMT
The whole issue of 'Freedom of Religion' remains problematic for me in its interpretation. Those who are religious seem to subscribe to the idea that freedom of religion means a free pass for them to do anything they like in the name of their religion.
People with this limited view of Freedom of Religion completely ignore the fact that Freedom of Religion ALSO means the right NOT to practice religion without discrimination.
In other words does religious freedom actually mean freedom from religion as well as freedom to practice whatever religion you wish?
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Post by Arlon10 on Nov 10, 2018 3:40:15 GMT
The whole issue of 'Freedom of Religion' remains problematic for me in its interpretation. Those who are religious seem to subscribe to the idea that freedom of religion means a free pass for them to do anything they like in the name of their religion. People with this limited view of Freedom of Religion completely ignore the fact that Freedom of Religion ALSO means the right NOT to practice religion without discrimination. In other words does religious freedom actually mean freedom from religion as well as freedom to practice whatever religion you wish? In the United States religious "freedom" means the state does not "establish" (financially support) any religion. It also means the state does not require membership or obedience to any religion. It is often assumed that no religion may influence voters on issues in society. That is not true. Anyone or any group, including atheists, is free to speak on any issue and be as much influence as that might be. It can be a little more complicated, but that is essentially it. |
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Post by Hairynosedwombat on Nov 10, 2018 3:51:36 GMT
The whole issue of 'Freedom of Religion' remains problematic for me in its interpretation. Those who are religious seem to subscribe to the idea that freedom of religion means a free pass for them to do anything they like in the name of their religion. People with this limited view of Freedom of Religion completely ignore the fact that Freedom of Religion ALSO means the right NOT to practice religion without discrimination. In other words does religious freedom actually mean freedom from religion as well as freedom to practice whatever religion you wish? In the United States religious "freedom" means the state does not "establish" (financially support) any religion. It also means the state does not require membership or obedience to any religion. It is often assumed that no religion may influence voters on issues in society. That is not true. Anyone or any group, including atheists, is free to speak on any issue and be as much influence as that might be. It can be a little more complicated, but that is essentially it. How can there be real freedom of religion when all the trappings of citizenship reek with christianity? One might think that one is free but it is implied that an American citizen is a citizen of a christian country. The banknotes have "in god we trust". The US Pledge of Allegiance which all citizens must recite says "one nation under god". Americans going into battle are sent with "go with god" or similar. That is some mighty mojo for (at least) a single god and realistically for the christian god. |
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Post by Arlon10 on Nov 10, 2018 4:00:12 GMT
In the United States religious "freedom" means the state does not "establish" (financially support) any religion. It also means the state does not require membership or obedience to any religion. It is often assumed that no religion may influence voters on issues in society. That is not true. Anyone or any group, including atheists, is free to speak on any issue and be as much influence as that might be. It can be a little more complicated, but that is essentially it. How can there be real freedom of religion when all the trappings of citizenship reek with christianity? One might think that one is free but it is implied that an American citizen is a citizen of a christian country. The banknotes have "in god we trust". The US Pledge of Allegiance which all citizens must recite says "one nation under god". Americans going into battle are sent with "go with god" or similar. That is some mighty mojo for (at least) a single god and realistically for the christian god. "Christianity" really isn't much of a religion since as practiced by many people (Trump supporters) it has no rules. It can appear to be all about membership. Life can be full of annoyances and misunderstandings. |
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Nov 10, 2018 8:29:09 GMT
How can there be real freedom of religion when all the trappings of citizenship reek with christianity? One might think that one is free but it is implied that an American citizen is a citizen of a christian country. The banknotes have "in god we trust".The US Pledge of Allegiance which all citizens must recite says "one nation under god".Americans going into battle are sent with "go with god" or similar. That is some mighty mojo for (at least) a single god and realistically for the christian god. "Christianity" really isn't much of a religion since as practiced by many people (Trump supporters) it has no rules. It can appear to be all about membership. Life can be full of annoyances and misunderstandings. What it is Arlon, is archaic and antiquated notions of God and what was once forced onto citizens by the controlling, manipulating and ignorant establishment that has kept its God fearing quotations for the sake of tradition, as per the judicial system and the military.
The main rule of Christianity is to accept Jesus Christ as ones savior and those in politics pander to this ideal to win votes and hide behind the façade of God, which is a confused ideology anyway, because is Jesus supposed to be the son of God, or God himself?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Nov 10, 2018 12:02:43 GMT
Freedom from religion would mean it becomes everyone's business how others worship.
It is not a right to be isolated from views and beliefs that are not your own. This a religious person can indeed worship however they feel as long as no harm is caused to others.
I think most people have a good grasp of what their limits are regarding their beliefs.
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Post by goz on Nov 10, 2018 20:01:01 GMT
Freedom from religion would mean it becomes everyone's business how others worship. It is not a right to be isolated from views and beliefs that are not your own. This a religious person can indeed worship however they feel as long as no harm is caused to others. I think most people have a good grasp of what their limits are regarding their beliefs. Could you explain this please? I thought it would actually be precisely the opposite. |
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Post by general313 on Nov 10, 2018 20:10:38 GMT
In the United States religious "freedom" means the state does not "establish" (financially support) any religion. It also means the state does not require membership or obedience to any religion. It is often assumed that no religion may influence voters on issues in society. That is not true. Anyone or any group, including atheists, is free to speak on any issue and be as much influence as that might be. It can be a little more complicated, but that is essentially it. How can there be real freedom of religion when all the trappings of citizenship reek with christianity? One might think that one is free but it is implied that an American citizen is a citizen of a christian country. The banknotes have "in god we trust". The US Pledge of Allegiance which all citizens must recite says "one nation under god". Americans going into battle are sent with "go with god" or similar. That is some mighty mojo for (at least) a single god and realistically for the christian god. Must all citizens recite the Pledge of Allegiance? |
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Post by Hairynosedwombat on Nov 10, 2018 20:16:23 GMT
How can there be real freedom of religion when all the trappings of citizenship reek with christianity? One might think that one is free but it is implied that an American citizen is a citizen of a christian country. The banknotes have "in god we trust". The US Pledge of Allegiance which all citizens must recite says "one nation under god". Americans going into battle are sent with "go with god" or similar. That is some mighty mojo for (at least) a single god and realistically for the christian god. Must all citizens recite the Pledge of Allegiance? Doesn't it get said every day in American school classes? On further reading, the US Supreme court says that children cannot be compelled to recite the pledge . |
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Post by general313 on Nov 10, 2018 20:22:22 GMT
Must all citizens recite the Pledge of Allegiance? Doesn't it get said every day in American school classes? I suppose it does, at least it did when I went to school about 50 years ago. I wonder what would happen if one refused to recite it (I never tried that when I was in school). It would probably get ugly, so okay, "must recite" is fair enough. I agree with all your other points btw. |
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Post by thefleetsin on Nov 10, 2018 21:48:19 GMT
from romper room to reichstag
the burning crosses
had magically
become the bosses
of those
who chose to eviscerate
the mosses
hung low upon our liberty.
for they saw religion
as their
glorified family tree
where you
had better be related
or else
expect to lose your knees.
if you refuse
to bow down to
the symptoms of
one more fatal disease
parading itself as sanctuary
on an island of
lethargic anomalies.
sjw 11/10/18 inspired at this very moment in time as the bell rolls off the belfry.
from the 'blitzkrieg series' of poems
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Post by general313 on Nov 10, 2018 23:37:09 GMT
Must all citizens recite the Pledge of Allegiance? Doesn't it get said every day in American school classes? On further reading, the US Supreme court says that children cannot be compelled to recite the pledge . Thanks for the update. Seems like a wise decision. |
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Post by Hairynosedwombat on Nov 11, 2018 0:11:59 GMT
Doesn't it get said every day in American school classes? On further reading, the US Supreme court says that children cannot be compelled to recite the pledge . Thanks for the update. Seems like a wise decision. Curiously another court case said that "under god" is just fluff, not a religious thing so doesn't breach the Constitution. I think some atheists would disagree, that christianity is so buried in Americas history that christians take it for granted. |
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Post by thorshairspray on Nov 11, 2018 18:29:27 GMT
Freedom from religion would mean it becomes everyone's business how others worship. It is not a right to be isolated from views and beliefs that are not your own. This a religious person can indeed worship however they feel as long as no harm is caused to others. I think most people have a good grasp of what their limits are regarding their beliefs. No, it would mean that you would be protected from religions. Thus no religion has the right to impose any of its beliefs on anyone else. |
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Post by lowtacks86 on Nov 11, 2018 19:52:29 GMT
Freedom from religion would mean it becomes everyone's business how others worship. It is not a right to be isolated from views and beliefs that are not your own. This a religious person can indeed worship however they feel as long as no harm is caused to others. I think most people have a good grasp of what their limits are regarding their beliefs. "Freedom from religion would mean it becomes everyone's business how others worship."
"It is not a right to be isolated from views and beliefs that are not your own."
Actually they do and interestingly enough many religious types uphold this right as certain religious sects/churches/organizations actually do their best to keep out any outside influence and stay within their own isolated communities (Amish and Hassidic Jews come to mind)
"I think most people have a good grasp of what their limits are regarding their beliefs."
Debatable, I'm guessing you've never seen a Republican rally. And that's just American Christianity, don't even get me started on the religious fanaticism regarding Islam and Sharia Law.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Nov 11, 2018 20:05:48 GMT
Freedom from religion would mean it becomes everyone's business how others worship. It is not a right to be isolated from views and beliefs that are not your own. This a religious person can indeed worship however they feel as long as no harm is caused to others. I think most people have a good grasp of what their limits are regarding their beliefs. No, it would mean that you would be protected from religions. Thus no religion has the right to impose any of its beliefs on anyone else. This is incorrect. The law is based on persecution of religions not the ridiculous notion of protection from hearing about religion. That doesn't even make sense. Promotion is not compulsion |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Nov 11, 2018 20:13:02 GMT
Freedom from religion would mean it becomes everyone's business how others worship. It is not a right to be isolated from views and beliefs that are not your own. This a religious person can indeed worship however they feel as long as no harm is caused to others. I think most people have a good grasp of what their limits are regarding their beliefs. "It is not a right to be isolated from views and beliefs that are not your own."
Actually they do and interestingly enough many religious types uphold this right as certain religious sects/churches/organizations actually do their best to keep out any outside influence and stay within their own isolated communities (Amish and Hassidic Jews come to mind)
That isn't what I said. By coming up with exceptions to the norm, you verify the rights of all the other peoples and organizations to speak their views freely even if you are annoyed hearing them. The examples you gave are ones who willingly choose to isolate themselves, not society requiring them to since society as a whole, including non-religious folks, are fine with people exercising freedom of speech. If Hassidic Jews wanted to all of a sudden go knocking door to door, vote on the basis of their beliefs, or picket abortion clinics, then so be it. |
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Post by lowtacks86 on Nov 11, 2018 20:22:08 GMT
"It is not a right to be isolated from views and beliefs that are not your own."
Actually they do and interestingly enough many religious types uphold this right as certain religious sects/churches/organizations actually do their best to keep out any outside influence and stay within their own isolated communities (Amish and Hassidic Jews come to mind)
That isn't what I said. By coming up with exceptions to the norm, you verify the rights of all the other peoples and organizations to speak their views freely even if you are annoyed hearing them. The examples you gave are ones who willingly choose to isolate themselves, not society requiring them to since society as a whole, including non-religious folks, are fine with people exercising freedom of speech. If Hassidic Jews wanted to all of a sudden go knocking door to door, vote on the basis of their beliefs, or picket abortion clinics, then so be it. "That isn't what I said."
That is exactly what you said, you said it's "not your right to be isolated from views and beliefs that are not your own", and then I gave two examples of people literally doing just that. I don't think you realize what you said actually applies a lot more to religion than those big atheist meanies that comment was probably directed at. If that wasn't your intention, then perhaps you should have just worded it better.
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Post by Aj_June on Nov 11, 2018 20:31:28 GMT
It varies according to countries. There isn't a great degree of religious freedom in countries like China because they are greatly inspired by anti-religious political beliefs. There are countries where there isn't a great degree of religious freedom for people of religions other than state religions (Saudia, Iran etc. etc.). There may be a few countries that have religious freedom for all as a concept even if one religion that is in majority seems to dominate certain laws.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Nov 11, 2018 20:37:46 GMT
It varies according to countries. There isn't a great degree of religious freedom in countries like China because they are greatly inspired by anti-religious political beliefs. There are countries where there isn't great degree of religious freedom for people of religions other than state religions (Saudia, Iran etc. etc.). There may be a few countries that have religious freedom for all as a concept even if one religion that is in majority seem to dominate certain laws. How much influence does Hinduism have on Indian politics and government? |
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