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Post by charzhino on Nov 19, 2018 15:57:46 GMT
A lot of people blame Starlord for messing up the plan to get the gauntlet which resulted in the snap. But they should be looking in Captain Americas direction.
As the stand in leader of the Avengers on earth, it was Caps decision to ignore Visions request to killself and offer the mindstone in a quick arrangement. (Vision of infinitely more smarter intellect than any of them, and an android, not a human).
Cap overrules and sends Vision to Wakanda to remove the stone, something he isnt 100% sure is possible anyway. A lot of time is wasted, hundreds of Wakandan soldiers die, Thanos gets the mindstone anyway, Vision is killed and ultimately Thanos snaps to kill trillions more. All for what, a possibility to save an android because Wanda "loves" him. Wanda should have learned from prior reckless experience in opening to Civil War never to repeat the same mistake of risking innocent lives again. Everyone knew the situation as Banner clearly explained Thanos' plan.
What's worse is Cap is supposed to be a veteran soldier with knowledge of military tactics. Rogers was willing to sacrifice himself in Cap 1 to go down with the aircraft to prevent it killing thousands. Why didnt he listen to Visions request of sacrificing himself to guarantee Thanos never gets hold of the mind gem. Cap should have had no problem with it, if Wanda was upset then he should have
1) explained that sacrafice is sometimes necessary, just like Rogers went down with the plane in WW1 to never see his lover again
2) explained that her brother Quicksilver died nobly trying to save thousands of Sokovians against Ultron
And finally in the same film Cap says, "we dont trade lives".
Well 100s of Wakandan soldiers are ready to sacrafice themselves for Vision (and many die), who Cap deems worthy enough to keep alive and waste time for Wandas sake. The trade ended up being a trillion to 0.
And all this considering hes a cyborg!!
Cap either showed poor leadership or it was poor writing of his character, once again hinting the writers ignore past actions of characters.
And don't gimmie the tired, bUt McU hERos aRe aLL flaWEd!1
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Post by dazz on Nov 19, 2018 16:40:35 GMT
Sadly as much as I enjoy ragging on Cap it really is not his fault, Thanos has the time stone meaning no matter when they destroy the mind stone he can reverse time to retrieve it, making the whole shit on earth kind of meaningless.
Strange is the one who "screws" up as only he can give Thanos the time stone without that choices Thanos is fucked, they could and would destroy the mind stone which would leave Thanos not 1 but 2 stones shy of completing the set.
But also as Strange is the one who caves but he also knows the one path to victory can you say he screwed up? maybe this is all part of the plan?
I kind of hope when they fix things and tell Strange what they did however he's shocked as how they win is not how he saw them doing it making his calculated risk really risky as turns out he didn't see the path they needed to take.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 19, 2018 16:53:26 GMT
Sadly as much as I enjoy ragging on Cap it really is not his fault, Thanos has the time stone meaning no matter when they destroy the mind stone he can reverse time to retrieve it, making the whole shit on earth kind of meaningless. Avengers on earth dont know that im sure, otherwise theyd not bother coming up with any plan if they knew Thanos could reverse time. Only Dr Strange and the mystics on earth know about the properties of the time gem so the Avengers on earth were oblivious and acted "normally". Strages decision to give up the time stone is peculiar for sure. But his line of thinking is exactly what Caps should have been. Strange was willing to let anyone else die, including Stark and Parker if it meant keeping the time stone outta Thanos' hands. Cap should have been written this way given his history in the military and previous experiences such as in The Avengers when he saw Stark willing to sacrafice himself in new york to save thousands by taking the nuke to space. I dont understand why Cap would be okay wasting time and lives to save Vision on Wandas behalf. It doesnt add up. |
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Post by dazz on Nov 19, 2018 17:03:45 GMT
Actually it does Cap is not a military man, sure he served but he showed no signs of being good at military strategy, in First Avenger he risks himself the US's most valuable human weapon on what was believed by an actual career military leader as a suicide mission to save specifically his best friend, Cap doesn't believe in just giving up people to die, so it fits his character.
You are simply putting your own interpretation of what Cap should be onto the character, as it was the plan was try to save Vision at all cost but if the choice had to be made then they sacrifice vision when they had no other choice, which is what they did, and without the time stone it would have worked, and as they didn't know the time stone could do that and there by that it was a possibility then their plan was sound.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 19, 2018 17:08:21 GMT
The willingness to sacrifice one's own life is entirely different than deciding to sacrifice someone else's life - even if the sacrificial party agrees to it. Vision could have just chosen to end his own life. Steve Rogers has never elected to sacrifice one individual for the sake of the majority. To the contrary, he has always placed a premium on the life of the individual such as in the case of one James Buchanan "Bucky" Barnes. His decision not to kill, or allow the Vision to kill himself, is consistent with previous portrayals of the character.
Vision is not a cyborg. In the MCU he is an Android.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Nov 19, 2018 17:08:29 GMT
Superman directly killed hundreds of thousands of people for his own sexual gratification in Man of Steel. Huh? |
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Post by dazz on Nov 19, 2018 17:11:16 GMT
Superman directly killed hundreds of thousands of people for his own sexual gratification in Man of Steel. Huh? He commited genocide against the last of the kryptonian race just to save humanity and by extension Lois who he wanted to and did bang, and hard repeatedly for years....pervert. |
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Post by hobowar on Nov 19, 2018 17:11:51 GMT
Superman directly killed hundreds of thousands of people for his own sexual gratification in Man of Steel. Huh? Snyder's interpretation of Superman is sexually aroused at the thought of innocent people dying. |
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 19, 2018 17:13:30 GMT
So, what, did DC-Fan PM you to write this in his stead? Because it reads more like him than like you (idea-wise, that is).
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Nov 19, 2018 17:14:35 GMT
Snyder's interpretation of Superman is sexually aroused at the thought of innocent people dying. Oh. Okay. Thanks. |
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 19, 2018 17:15:10 GMT
Snyder's interpretation of Superman is sexually aroused at the thought of innocent people dying. Huh? |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 19, 2018 17:25:11 GMT
Snyder's interpretation of Superman is sexually aroused at the thought of innocent people dying. Huh? The last son of Krypton solicits a passionate kiss from Lois Lane almost immediately after the conclusion of the battle of Metropolis. The implication being that he was sexually aroused by the occurrence of the mass deaths he helped to perpetuate. Allegedly, there is a scientific basis for this phenomenon. In some tribes in New Guinea, it is normal for a Widow to have group sex openly at the funeral of her husband. Perhaps Kal was disoriented after the battle and simply forgot which continent he was on. |
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Post by kuatorises on Nov 19, 2018 17:26:14 GMT
The willingness to sacrifice one's own life is entirely different than deciding to sacrifice someone else's life - even if the sacrificial party agrees to it. Vision could have just chosen to end his own life. Steve Rogers has never elected to sacrifice one individual for the sake of the majority. To the contrary, he has always placed a premium on the life of the individual such as in the case of one James Buchanan "Bucky" Barnes. His decision not to kill, or allow the Vision to kill himself, is consistent with previous portrayals of the character. Vision is not a cyborg. In the MCU he is an Android. It's rather ironic that Cap is so concerned about not having a "choice", but is quick to take that choice away from another. Just sayin'. |
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 19, 2018 17:29:29 GMT
The last son of Krypton solicits a passionate kiss from Lois Lane almost immediately after the conclusion of the battle of Metropolis. The implication being that he was sexually aroused by the occurrence of the mass deaths he helped to perpetuate. Allegedly, there is a scientific basis for this phenomenon. In some tribes in New Guinea, it is normal for a Widow to have group sex openly at the funeral of her husband. Perhaps Kal was disoriented after the battle and simply forgot which continent he was on. Um. No. You know how many hoops you have to jump through to assume that? When there are simpler answers available—like, oh, I dunno, that he’s relieved it’s all over and gives his girlfriend a kiss for that? Y’know, like this guy. There’s no implication, just, um, wow. |
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 19, 2018 17:30:37 GMT
Meh. There's a big difference between killing people directly (Thanos) vs. people getting indirectly killed because of an action you took (Starlord) vs. people getting indirectly killed because of possible inaction on your part (Captain America). They don't all contain the same amount of responsibility for the deaths of the people affected. For example, I know of no law that we could prosecute Cap for not murdering Vision.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 19, 2018 17:33:50 GMT
The last son of Krypton solicits a passionate kiss from Lois Lane almost immediately after the conclusion of the battle of Metropolis. The implication being that he was sexually aroused by the occurrence of the mass deaths he helped to perpetuate. Allegedly, there is a scientific basis for this phenomenon. In some tribes in New Guinea, it is normal for a Widow to have group sex openly at the funeral of her husband. Perhaps Kal was disoriented after the battle and simply forgot which continent he was on. Um. No. You know how many hoops you have to jump through to assume that? When there are simpler answers available—like, oh, I dunno, that he’s relieved it’s all over and gives his girlfriend a kiss for that? Y’know, like this guy. There’s no implication, just, um, wow. Your quarrel isn't with Lord Death Man. I was merely explaining the context of the comment (because I knew it and, you did not). I don't care enough about Man of Steel to speculate on Kal-El's love life in that film. Please take your issue up with hobowar. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2018 17:35:14 GMT
I don't know if I can agree. They tried to stop Thanos, for the most part did everything right, and still failed. A for effort?
The plan seemed to be working. When it really started going south was when Wanda left Vision's side to join the battle.
As far as being an android, he is a member of the team. Several years ago I might have thought he's an android so it's less a life traded and more an appliance, but I've been watching too much Star Trek TNG on Netflix and Data to believe Vision doesn't have his own sovereignty over his body. Like Commander Data. The definition of life and sentience is always up in the air but it seems to me like Vision is alive, not just switched on. To end his program is to kill him, not just deactivate him. I think Rogers was right to say we don't trade lives because I believe Vision is alive. Or was.
I wouldn't say the Wakanda soldiers trader their lives, like some sort of military gambit. They died in the line of duty; it was lives well spent. A lot of people did. Their opponent was just too good.
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 19, 2018 17:35:47 GMT
Um. No. You know how many hoops you have to jump through to assume that? When there are simpler answers available—like, oh, I dunno, that he’s relieved it’s all over and gives his girlfriend a kiss for that? Y’know, like this guy. There’s no implication, just, um, wow. Your quarrel isn’t with Lord Death Man . I was merely explaining the context of the comment (because I knew it and, you did not). I don’t care enough about Man of Steel to speculate on Kal-El’s love life in that film. Please take your issue up with hobowar . Well, you’re the one who attempted to explain the reasoning behind a patently ridiculous interpretation. But, OK, hobowar. |
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Post by kuatorises on Nov 19, 2018 17:37:01 GMT
Sadly as much as I enjoy ragging on Cap it really is not his fault, Thanos has the time stone meaning no matter when they destroy the mind stone he can reverse time to retrieve it, making the whole shit on earth kind of meaningless. Strange is the one who "screws" up as only he can give Thanos the time stone without that choices Thanos is fucked, they could and would destroy the mind stone which would leave Thanos not 1 but 2 stones shy of completing the set. But also as Strange is the one who caves but he also knows the one path to victory can you say he screwed up? maybe this is all part of the plan? I kind of hope when they fix things and tell Strange what they did however he's shocked as how they win is not how he saw them doing it making his calculated risk really risky as turns out he didn't see the path they needed to take. I agree that it's not his fault, but thought it was pretty stupid and arrogant that he wouldn't allow Vision to do what he wanted to do in an attempt to end the conflict. It comes from a good place, but the individual does not outweigh the many and it's the second time Cap puts an individual's life above many others. I thought it was implied that Strange did what he did because it was the one option that should they had a chance of winning. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 19, 2018 17:38:06 GMT
The last son of Krypton solicits a passionate kiss from Lois Lane almost immediately after the conclusion of the battle of Metropolis. The implication being that he was sexually aroused by the occurrence of the mass deaths he helped to perpetuate. Allegedly, there is a scientific basis for this phenomenon. In some tribes in New Guinea, it is normal for a Widow to have group sex openly at the funeral of her husband. Perhaps Kal was disoriented after the battle and simply forgot which continent he was on. Um. No. You know how many hoops you have to jump through to assume that? When there are simpler answers available—like, oh, I dunno, that he’s relieved it’s all over and gives his girlfriend a kiss for that? Y’know, like this guy. There’s no implication, just, um, wow. And "this guy" is not kissing someone on a devastated battlefield while decorated in the vaporized remains of human beings. He's in a city full of people celebrating. That would seem like a more opportune moment for the old Kryptonian liplock. |
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