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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 19, 2018 17:39:20 GMT
Your quarrel isn’t with Lord Death Man . I was merely explaining the context of the comment (because I knew it and, you did not). I don’t care enough about Man of Steel to speculate on Kal-El’s love life in that film. Please take your issue up with hobowar . Well, you’re the one who attempted to explain the reasoning behind a patently ridiculous interpretation. But, OK, hobowar . If you didn't get that my comments were in jest, I simply can't help you with that.
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 19, 2018 17:40:06 GMT
Um. No. You know how many hoops you have to jump through to assume that? When there are simpler answers available—like, oh, I dunno, that he’s relieved it’s all over and gives his girlfriend a kiss for that? Y’know, like this guy. There’s no implication, just, um, wow. And "this guy" is not kissing someone on a devastated battlefield while decorated in the vaporized remains of human beings. He's in a city full of people celebrating. That would seem like a more opportune moment for the old Kryptonian liplock. Et voilà, you are defending that patently ridiculous interpretation. Gotcha.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 19, 2018 17:41:28 GMT
And "this guy" is not kissing someone on a devastated battlefield while decorated in the vaporized remains of human beings. He's in a city full of people celebrating. That would seem like a more opportune moment for the old Kryptonian liplock. Et voilà, you are defending that patently ridiculous interpretation. Gotcha. No - just making an observation. Take it as you will, or can, sir.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Nov 19, 2018 17:41:53 GMT
I've mentioned this in the past. Everyone blames Starlord when there are plenty of characters who could've made better decisions. Cap chose Vision over half of the life in the universe. Gamora chose her sister. I'd throw Strange in there but giving Thanos the time stone is all a part of his plan so he gets a pass. But everyone else makes selfish, if understandable decisions that lead to catastrophe later on.
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 19, 2018 17:42:10 GMT
Well, you’re the one who attempted to explain the reasoning behind a patently ridiculous interpretation. But, OK, hobowar . If you didn’t get that my comments were in jest, I simply can’t help you with that. OK, so, if your comments were in jest, you can say definitively that you do not believe that Superman got any kind of sexual arousal. Great! If your comments were in jest, just go ahead and write that. “I, Lord Death Man, can definitively say that I do not believe…”
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 19, 2018 17:43:44 GMT
If you didn’t get that my comments were in jest, I simply can’t help you with that. OK, so, if your comments were in jest, you can say definitively that you do not believe that Superman got any kind of sexual arousal. Great! If your comments were in jest, just go ahead and write that. “I, Lord Death Man, can definitively say that I do not believe…” We do not care one way or the other.
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 19, 2018 17:45:08 GMT
Ah. So, you won’t say whether or not you believe that interpretation. But your comments were definitely in jest. OK. Got it.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 19, 2018 17:52:55 GMT
Ah. So, you won’t say whether or not you believe that interpretation. But your comments were definitely in jest. OK. Got it. Glad to hear it's all cleared up for you. Shall we move on to new business?
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Post by dazz on Nov 19, 2018 17:54:38 GMT
Sadly as much as I enjoy ragging on Cap it really is not his fault, Thanos has the time stone meaning no matter when they destroy the mind stone he can reverse time to retrieve it, making the whole shit on earth kind of meaningless. Strange is the one who "screws" up as only he can give Thanos the time stone without that choices Thanos is fucked, they could and would destroy the mind stone which would leave Thanos not 1 but 2 stones shy of completing the set. But also as Strange is the one who caves but he also knows the one path to victory can you say he screwed up? maybe this is all part of the plan? I kind of hope when they fix things and tell Strange what they did however he's shocked as how they win is not how he saw them doing it making his calculated risk really risky as turns out he didn't see the path they needed to take. I agree that it's not his fault, but thought it was pretty stupid and arrogant that he wouldn't allow Vision to do what he wanted to do in an attempt to end the conflict. It comes from a good place, but the individual does not outweigh the many and it's the second time Cap puts an individual's life above many others. I thought it was implied that Strange did what he did because it was the one option that should they had a chance of winning. It is yeah which is why I said "screws" because his actions are what result in the loss of the battles but may win them the war, but I hope the path to victory is one he does not see just so we get to see Strange be shocked at how they defeat Thanos.
Cap though again and I do not like defending him as I actually find the character more an arsehole than Tony which most people don't, but he doesn't say no to sacrificing Vision but he's a we don't make that call until we have to type, as we see they do sacrifice Vision when Thanos turns up and they cant hold him back, it comes down to is it wrong to hold out hope?
Put it like this a father is a donor match for his kid who needs a transplant, but the organ isn't one you can live without, and the kid MUST have the transplant, now the doctors wont kill the father to save the kid obviously, as hard as it maybe though if the dad kills himself to ensure his kid can get the transplant it's a noble but tragic sacrifice, but what if he kills himself after the doctors tell him his kid MAY need a transplant? than it's not heroic but reckless, he kills himself for the same reason but when there were other options, all he did for sure was leave his kid without a father and knowing they are the reason why their dad killed themselves.
Time and circumstances alter what is and isn't a needed action, what is brave and what is reckless, necessary or not.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 19, 2018 17:55:45 GMT
The willingness to sacrifice one's own life is entirely different than deciding to sacrifice someone else's life - even if the sacrificial party agrees to it. Vision could have just chosen to end his own life. Steve Rogers has never elected to sacrifice one individual for the sake of the majority. Okay I may have overlooked the difference in magnitudes of self sacrafice and assisted suicide as skaather pointed out. But what of his comments "we dont trade lives" when faced with 100s of Wakandan soldiers willing to die for 1 android on Caps/TChallas orders?
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Post by charzhino on Nov 19, 2018 18:01:44 GMT
I've mentioned this in the past. Everyone blames Starlord when there are plenty of characters who could've made better decisions. Cap chose Vision over half of the life in the universe. Gamora chose her sister. I'd throw Strange in there but giving Thanos the time stone is all a part of his plan so he gets a pass. But everyone else makes selfish, if understandable decisions that lead to catastrophe later on. Looking back I dont blame Starlord anymore. An important theme in IW is sacrafice, who is willing to do it for the greater good. Stark is, he went into that alien ship knowing it could easily be the end. Also cutting off Pepper Potts after talking about raising a kid. Dr Strange is, he outright tells IM and Spidey that he will have no hesitation to risk their lives for the gem. Starlord was willing to kill Gamora to protect the the soul gems location thats why Thanos praised him. Thor was willing to sacrafice himself when forging his Stormbrraker. That leaves Cap who I think wussed out a little, but a lot of the blame should lie with Wanda. She killed Vision at the end but it was too late, her initial selfish thinking and Caps compliance with it cost them time and ultimately half the universe.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2018 18:02:07 GMT
The willingness to sacrifice one's own life is entirely different than deciding to sacrifice someone else's life - even if the sacrificial party agrees to it. Vision could have just chosen to end his own life. Steve Rogers has never elected to sacrifice one individual for the sake of the majority. Okay I may have overlooked the difference in magnitudes of self sacrafice and assisted suicide as skaather pointed out. But what of his comments "we dont trade lives" when faced with 100s of Wakandan soldiers willing to die for 1 android on Caps/TChallas orders? Willing or not, it's the way of the army. Besides, given the scenario, dying on their feet won out over dying on their knees.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 19, 2018 18:12:26 GMT
I don't know if I can agree. They tried to stop Thanos, for the most part did everything right, and still failed. A for effort?
The plan seemed to be working. When it really started going south was when Wanda left Vision's side to join the battle.
As far as being an android, he is a member of the team. Several years ago I might have thought he's an android so it's less a life traded and more an appliance, but I've been watching too much Star Trek TNG on Netflix and Data to believe Vision doesn't have his own sovereignty over his body. Like Commander Data. The definition of life and sentience is always up in the air but it seems to me like Vision is alive, not just switched on. To end his program is to kill him, not just deactivate him. I think Rogers was right to say we don't trade lives because I believe Vision is alive. Or was.
I wouldn't say the Wakanda soldiers trader their lives, like some sort of military gambit. They died in the line of duty; it was lives well spent. A lot of people did. Their opponent was just too good.
It just stinks of the same trope they pulled in the Last Jedi when rose stops Finns sacrafice. "Thats how we are gonna win. Not fighting what we hate but saving the ones we love" I hated it in TLJ and they used it here in IW through Wanda although less blatantly on the nose.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 19, 2018 18:17:57 GMT
The willingness to sacrifice one's own life is entirely different than deciding to sacrifice someone else's life - even if the sacrificial party agrees to it. Vision could have just chosen to end his own life. Steve Rogers has never elected to sacrifice one individual for the sake of the majority. Okay I may have overlooked the difference in magnitudes of self sacrafice and assisted suicide as skaather pointed out. But what of his comments "we dont trade lives" when faced with 100s of Wakandan soldiers willing to die for 1 android on Caps/TChallas orders? So now Captain America AND T'Challa are responsible for trillions of deaths? I see. It appears that your thread title will need amending. Soldiers are, for lack of a better word, soldiers. Military Commanders make decisions which deliberately sacrifice the lives of soldiers during a war. For the Commander, this is an acceptable means to an end. For the soldier, it is a well-understood risk in accepting the role (or being pressed into it). If your intent is to discredit the writing of the film, I would highly recommend that you select a group of civilian innocents whose lives were negatively impacted by the Captain's decisions. The Captain has rallied soldiers in a military capacity and ask them to risk their lives in service of a just cause in previous films (including the speech he gave to the loyal S.H.E.I.L.D. contingent in the Winter Soldier).
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 19, 2018 18:18:14 GMT
I've mentioned this in the past. Everyone blames Starlord when there are plenty of characters who could've made better decisions. Cap chose Vision over half of the life in the universe. Gamora chose her sister. I'd throw Strange in there but giving Thanos the time stone is all a part of his plan so he gets a pass. But everyone else makes selfish, if understandable decisions that lead to catastrophe later on. And that's what makes the MCU movies so engaging. Because the people in it act like people and not perfect automatons.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2018 18:20:12 GMT
I don't know if I can agree. They tried to stop Thanos, for the most part did everything right, and still failed. A for effort?
The plan seemed to be working. When it really started going south was when Wanda left Vision's side to join the battle.
As far as being an android, he is a member of the team. Several years ago I might have thought he's an android so it's less a life traded and more an appliance, but I've been watching too much Star Trek TNG on Netflix and Data to believe Vision doesn't have his own sovereignty over his body. Like Commander Data. The definition of life and sentience is always up in the air but it seems to me like Vision is alive, not just switched on. To end his program is to kill him, not just deactivate him. I think Rogers was right to say we don't trade lives because I believe Vision is alive. Or was.
I wouldn't say the Wakanda soldiers trader their lives, like some sort of military gambit. They died in the line of duty; it was lives well spent. A lot of people did. Their opponent was just too good.
It just stinks of the same trope they pulled in the Last Jedi when rose stops Finns sacrafice. "Thats how we are gonna win. Not fighting what we hate but saving the ones we love" I hated it in TLJ and they used it here in IW through Wanda although less blatantly on the nose. I understand.
I could have shot Rose for that too but her heart's in the right place.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 19, 2018 18:21:43 GMT
I don't know if I can agree. They tried to stop Thanos, for the most part did everything right, and still failed. A for effort?
The plan seemed to be working. When it really started going south was when Wanda left Vision's side to join the battle.
As far as being an android, he is a member of the team. Several years ago I might have thought he's an android so it's less a life traded and more an appliance, but I've been watching too much Star Trek TNG on Netflix and Data to believe Vision doesn't have his own sovereignty over his body. Like Commander Data. The definition of life and sentience is always up in the air but it seems to me like Vision is alive, not just switched on. To end his program is to kill him, not just deactivate him. I think Rogers was right to say we don't trade lives because I believe Vision is alive. Or was.
I wouldn't say the Wakanda soldiers trader their lives, like some sort of military gambit. They died in the line of duty; it was lives well spent. A lot of people did. Their opponent was just too good.
It just stinks of the same trope they pulled in the Last Jedi when rose stops Finns sacrafice. "Thats how we are gonna win. Not fighting what we hate but saving the ones we love" I hated it in TLJ and they used it here in IW through Wanda although less blatantly on the nose. Nah, there's a huge difference between the two. For one, Finn was doing something to kill himself (sacrificing himself) and Rose interfered. In Vision's case, he wasn't going to kill himself, he was asking someone else to kill himself (Wanda). Finn was taking the responsibility of death on himself, Vision was asking someone else to kill him. The other difference is that Finn and the resistance had no other plan in place. If CGI Luke hadn't come and a back passage not found they would have been screwed. In Vision's case, an alternative was actually available: Removing the stone. It eventually failed but at that time they made the decision it was a valid option.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 19, 2018 18:30:12 GMT
So now Captain America AND T'Challa are responsible for trillions of deaths? Mentioned Tchalla because only he can give the final order to his army, being King. Fair enough. My direction of blame should probably lie more with Wanda. With regards to the writing on Caps character specifically... Given your thoughts on Caps inability to let others die, even willlingly, this means he shouldn't be able to wield the infinity gaunlet right? As he wont be worthy enough to possess the soul gem which requires a sacrafice. So if Cap does wield the gaunlet in part 2, a very likely scenario, are you going to hold your hands up and admit dodgy writing?
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Post by hobowar on Nov 19, 2018 18:35:26 GMT
So now Captain America AND T'Challa are responsible for trillions of deaths? Mentioned Tchalla because only he can give the final order to his army, being King. Fair enough. My direction of blame should probably lie more with Wanda. With regards to the writing on Caps character specifically... Given your thoughts on Caps inability to let others die, even willlingly, this means he shouldn't be able to wield the infinity gaunlet right? As he wont be worthy enough to possess the soul gem which requires a sacrafice. So if Cap does wield the gaunlet in part 2, a very likely scenario, are you going to hold your hands up and admit dodgy writing? Wouldn't it make more sense for Nebula or Thor to use the gauntlet. That's if anyone uses it at all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2018 18:38:50 GMT
Mentioned Tchalla because only he can give the final order to his army, being King. Fair enough. My direction of blame should probably lie more with Wanda. With regards to the writing on Caps character specifically... Given your thoughts on Caps inability to let others die, even willlingly, this means he shouldn't be able to wield the infinity gaunlet right? As he wont be worthy enough to possess the soul gem which requires a sacrafice. So if Cap does wield the gaunlet in part 2, a very likely scenario, are you going to hold your hands up and admit dodgy writing? Wouldn't it make more sense for Nebula or Thor to use the gauntlet. That's if anyone uses it at all. I'm not expecting anybody but Thanos to wear it. Is that what happens in the comics? They are infinity stones. Holding just one is likely to kill almost anybody unless they have near God like toughness. Even Thanos can probably only use so much of its power at a time without killing himself or trashing the gauntlet.
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