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Post by summers8 on Nov 22, 2018 10:55:16 GMT
Now in the xmen film series. I see first class and deadpool as the percular films. they are what we call the alternate best xmen movies when people want to step away from (DOFP, X2, LOGAN divide).
also black panther did remind me of first class but a disney dumbed down version.
An MCU fan justanaveragejoe just said it is a dominant opinion black panther is better than first class which is factually impossible since black panther fails to have the depth that first class had .everything in black panther is in first class the only thing first class did was make it more compelling and push more story boundaries. want examples?
Magneto's mum death was more powerful than Killmonger's father death because magneto actually witnessed it.
1. mystique actually had character development...no female in black panther did.
2. Mcvoy/Fassbender had a more complex intellectual ideology than killmongger/black panther
3. First class had depth on it social issues. black panther did not.
4. first class had superior technicality. (this scene combine, acting, cgi, score, screenplay)
5. first class had a better villain that was actually 3 dimensional and got a poetic death
6. the cold war as the back drop theme of first class was handled in a Superior version to the viburnum theory of black panther that had no substance
7. Fassbender and Mcvoy gave stronger performances than Jordan and Boswman
as critics said of first class, it was a comic film with brains and depth. black panther is hardly a brain movie. if you swap the race of black panther it is thor 1. if you swap the race of first class, the movie will still be the same.
please just stop with this nonsense already.
Bonus Points
Better CGI for first class Better german accents in first class to African accents in black panther.
So you see, its my opinon but remember opinions drawn for the factual films.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 22, 2018 12:05:38 GMT
Here is a good comparison of 2 similar scene where hero and villain confront their ideas before they battle each other.
In this Black Panther duel, just read the dialogue and notice how mono-toned and basic it sounds.
"I lived my entire life waiting for this moment. I trained, I lied. I killed in America, Afghanistan, Iraq... I took life from my own brothers and sisters right here on this continent! And all this death just so I could kill you!"
Is this the best that can be written for a supposed good fleshed out villain? No wit or complexity is present and as others have said it easily fits into the simple angry black man persona Killmonger occupies throughout the entire film. This is as in depth as killmongers dialogues and motives get. Its all superficial. Even TChalla doesnt try to talk him down or out of it. They just can't wait to clobber each other.
Eric: "Take off your blinders, brothers and sisters. The real enemy is out there. I feel their guns moving in the water. Their metal, targeting us. Americans, Soviets, humans. United in their fear of the unknown. The Neanderthal is running scared, my fellow mutants! [turning to Charles] Go ahead, Charles. Tell me I'm wrong.
Xavier: Erik, you said yourself we're the better men. This is the time to prove it. There are thousands of men on those ships. Good, honest, innocent men! They're just following orders.
Erik Lehnsherr: I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again"
The difference in substance and delivery is night and day. Erics showcasing his developing character here from neutral to villain. His allegorical imagery line about Neanderthals running scared has call backs to earlier moments in the film on Xaviers thesis on evolution. His words provide a better sympathetic shoulder from the audience than Killmongers. His motives are layed out in different tones, from authoritative to anger to compusure. His final line, never again, is another chilling callback to his time at the Nazi camps. What's Killmongers? "Im here to kill you" more or less.
And that is one small example. When Disney MCU take over Xmen, expect the First Class scene to go something like
"Ive lived my entire life waiting for this moment. I was tortured. My parents were killed. I killed those responsible. I took life from my own mutant brothers and sisters. All so I could come here and kill the humans!"
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Nov 22, 2018 12:39:56 GMT
Eh they're both overrated.
The Dark Knight is a superior film that didn't need CGI or politics to sell it.
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Post by Power Ranger on Nov 22, 2018 12:47:36 GMT
I’m a big fan of First Class. I wanted Vaughan to direct a sequel with those characters, not Singer with his characters.
But it’s not perfect. One scene that is ridiculous is when Xavier pushes Banshee off that great height when the net wasn’t there. What if he was wrong? He’d be dead. Stupid scene.
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Post by sostie on Nov 22, 2018 13:16:41 GMT
as critics said of first class, it was a comic film with brains and depth. black panther is hardly a brain movie. "Marvel And Ryan Coogler Have Delivered A Superb Blockbuster With A Brain". - comicbookmovie.com "Black Panther isn't just beautiful — it's got brains to spare" - thestar.com "a superhero flick with brains and brawn" - mymbuzz.com "Black Panther is not only one of the most entertaining recent superhero films but has an intelligence and a political dimension that such inchoate offerings as Suicide Squad and Justice League completely lacked". - independent.co.uk "This is a film with brains, muscle and heart that moves, breathes and thinks like no other" - detroitnews.com "Intelligent, imaginative action-adventure" - newsday.com "black panther rules as smart socially powerful superhero cinema" - forbes.com "Black Panther is not just smart and politically aware for a superhero film -- it's smart and politically aware, full stop". - newstatseman.com Don't recall any plan to start a race war in Thor The German accents were better than the accents from a fictional isolated African nation!
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Post by charzhino on Nov 22, 2018 13:17:17 GMT
I’m a big fan of First Class. I wanted Vaughan to direct a sequel with those characters, not Singer with his characters. But it’s not perfect. One scene that is ridiculous is when Xavier pushes Banshee off that great height when the net wasn’t there. What if he was wrong? He’d be dead. Stupid scene. Minor nitpick. But even then, mutant powers emerge spontaneously under extreme stress/puberty. Falling to your death covers one scenario so its more like a natural reflex for Banshee to throw out supersonic waves to keep him alive.
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Post by blockbusted on Nov 22, 2018 13:33:47 GMT
Dude, some of those scenes are ruined by crappy CGI and cheap-looking sets, costumes, and makeups. At the very least, ‘Black Panther’ doesn’t have problems with latter 3.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 22, 2018 15:00:36 GMT
First Class is a wordier film... and Summers8 interprets that as First Class automatically having better acting.
Anyway, it's a fact that BP is considered by the general populace to be better than First Class. That's just the way it is.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2018 15:03:42 GMT
I’m a big fan of First Class. I wanted Vaughan to direct a sequel with those characters, not Singer with his characters. But it’s not perfect. One scene that is ridiculous is when Xavier pushes Banshee off that great height when the net wasn’t there. What if he was wrong? He’d be dead. Stupid scene. Minor nitpick. But even then, mutant powers emerge spontaneously under extreme stress/puberty. Falling to your death covers one scenario so its more like a natural reflex for Banshee to throw out supersonic waves to keep him alive. The point is that it was way out of character for Xavier to do such a thing to anyone unless there was an immediate risk of losing life. The writing is poor here, as it took the film's main protagonist out of character just to provide an opportunity develop another.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 22, 2018 15:15:08 GMT
Minor nitpick. But even then, mutant powers emerge spontaneously under extreme stress/puberty. Falling to your death covers one scenario so its more like a natural reflex for Banshee to throw out supersonic waves to keep him alive. The point is that it was way out of character for Xavier to do such a thing to anyone unless there was an immediate risk of losing life. The writing is poor here, as it took the film's main protagonist out of character just to provide an opportunity develop another. Magneto pushes him not Xavier
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Post by summers8 on Nov 22, 2018 15:18:24 GMT
Here is a good comparison of 2 similar scene where hero and villain confront their ideas before they battle each other. In this Black Panther duel, just read the dialogue and notice how mono-toned and basic it sounds. "I lived my entire life waiting for this moment. I trained, I lied. I killed in America, Afghanistan, Iraq... I took life from my own brothers and sisters right here on this continent! And all this death just so I could kill you!"Is this the best that can be written for a supposed good fleshed out villain? No wit or complexity is present and as others have said it easily fits into the simple angry black man persona Killmonger occupies throughout the entire film. This is as in depth as killmongers dialogues and motives get. Its all superficial. Even TChalla doesnt try to talk him down or out of it. They just can't wait to clobber each other. Eric: "Take off your blinders, brothers and sisters. The real enemy is out there. I feel their guns moving in the water. Their metal, targeting us. Americans, Soviets, humans. United in their fear of the unknown. The Neanderthal is running scared, my fellow mutants! [turning to Charles] Go ahead, Charles. Tell me I'm wrong.
Xavier: Erik, you said yourself we're the better men. This is the time to prove it. There are thousands of men on those ships. Good, honest, innocent men! They're just following orders.
Erik Lehnsherr: I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again"The difference in substance and delivery is night and day. Erics showcasing his developing character here from neutral to villain. His allegorical imagery line about Neanderthals running scared has call backs to earlier moments in the film on Xaviers thesis on evolution. His words provide a better sympathetic shoulder from the audience than Killmongers. His motives are layed out in different tones, from authoritative to anger to compusure. His final line, never again, is another chilling callback to his time at the Nazi camps. What's Killmongers? "Im here to kill you" more or less. And that is one small example. When Disney MCU take over Xmen, expect the First Class scene to go something like "Ive lived my entire life waiting for this moment. I was tortured. My parents were killed. I killed those responsible. I took life from my own mutant brothers and sisters. All so I could come here and kill the humans!" well said, as I said in my op. what first class does is push more story boundaries.
in both scenes while magneto and killmomger had been wrong but you sympathise more with magneto than killmonger because magneto is a 3 dimensional character who is far from basic in his thinking.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2018 15:18:49 GMT
Here is a good comparison of 2 similar scene where hero and villain confront their ideas before they battle each other. In this Black Panther duel, just read the dialogue and notice how mono-toned and basic it sounds. "I lived my entire life waiting for this moment. I trained, I lied. I killed in America, Afghanistan, Iraq... I took life from my own brothers and sisters right here on this continent! And all this death just so I could kill you!"Is this the best that can be written for a supposed good fleshed out villain? No wit or complexity is present and as others have said it easily fits into the simple angry black man persona Killmonger occupies throughout the entire film. This is as in depth as killmongers dialogues and motives get. Its all superficial. Even TChalla doesnt try to talk him down or out of it. They just can't wait to clobber each other. Eric: "Take off your blinders, brothers and sisters. The real enemy is out there. I feel their guns moving in the water. Their metal, targeting us. Americans, Soviets, humans. United in their fear of the unknown. The Neanderthal is running scared, my fellow mutants! [turning to Charles] Go ahead, Charles. Tell me I'm wrong.
Xavier: Erik, you said yourself we're the better men. This is the time to prove it. There are thousands of men on those ships. Good, honest, innocent men! They're just following orders.
Erik Lehnsherr: I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again"The difference in substance and delivery is night and day. Erics showcasing his developing character here from neutral to villain. His allegorical imagery line about Neanderthals running scared has call backs to earlier moments in the film on Xaviers thesis on evolution. His words provide a better sympathetic shoulder from the audience than Killmongers. His motives are layed out in different tones, from authoritative to anger to compusure. His final line, never again, is another chilling callback to his time at the Nazi camps. What's Killmongers? "Im here to kill you" more or less. And that is one small example. When Disney MCU take over Xmen, expect the First Class scene to go something like "Ive lived my entire life waiting for this moment. I was tortured. My parents were killed. I killed those responsible. I took life from my own mutant brothers and sisters. All so I could come here and kill the humans!" The scenes are in not so similar because the set up to their conflict is a completely different story. Magneto and Xavier's story of friendship and division drove the entire film. While Killmomger's and Black Panther's story was one of separate lives. It would be out of character for the two to suddenly have a heartfelt deep interaction like Xavier and Magneto had.
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Post by summers8 on Nov 22, 2018 15:21:02 GMT
I’m a big fan of First Class. I wanted Vaughan to direct a sequel with those characters, not Singer with his characters. But it’s not perfect. One scene that is ridiculous is when Xavier pushes Banshee off that great height when the net wasn’t there. What if he was wrong? He’d be dead. Stupid scene. actually it was magneto that does the pushing.
xavier doing it would be stupid since he is not that guy , magneto is that guy. so in a way it was brilliant since we know magneto likes the thougher methods.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2018 15:21:40 GMT
The point is that it was way out of character for Xavier to do such a thing to anyone unless there was an immediate risk of losing life. The writing is poor here, as it took the film's main protagonist out of character just to provide an opportunity develop another. Magneto pushes him not Xavier I should have known better to trust Power Ranger!
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Post by Power Ranger on Nov 22, 2018 15:21:52 GMT
I’m a big fan of First Class. I wanted Vaughan to direct a sequel with those characters, not Singer with his characters. But it’s not perfect. One scene that is ridiculous is when Xavier pushes Banshee off that great height when the net wasn’t there. What if he was wrong? He’d be dead. Stupid scene. actually it was magneto that does the pushing.
xavier doing it would be stupid since he is not that guy , magneto is that guy. so in a way it was brilliant since we know magneto likes the thougher methods.
Oh that’s right. Still stupid.
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Post by summers8 on Nov 22, 2018 15:24:15 GMT
as critics said of first class, it was a comic film with brains and depth. black panther is hardly a brain movie. "Marvel And Ryan Coogler Have Delivered A Superb Blockbuster With A Brain". - comicbookmovie.com "Black Panther isn't just beautiful — it's got brains to spare" - thestar.com "a superhero flick with brains and brawn" - mymbuzz.com "Black Panther is not only one of the most entertaining recent superhero films but has an intelligence and a political dimension that such inchoate offerings as Suicide Squad and Justice League completely lacked". - independent.co.uk "This is a film with brains, muscle and heart that moves, breathes and thinks like no other" - detroitnews.com "Intelligent, imaginative action-adventure" - newsday.com "black panther rules as smart socially powerful superhero cinema" - forbes.com "Black Panther is not just smart and politically aware for a superhero film -- it's smart and politically aware, full stop". - newstatseman.com Don't recall any plan to start a race war in Thor The German accents were better than the accents from a fictional isolated African nation! first class is a movie with brains and depth that is actually earned from the film making...the art. unfortunately for black panther the brains is because the cast is black. since the movie is the same as thor 1 and most critics did not call thor 1 briany movie.also see my points, that is the brains of first class. something absent with black panther.
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Post by damngumby on Nov 22, 2018 15:36:04 GMT
XM1C could be Citizen Cane, but it would still be shackled by a cast of character with a variety of ridiculous superpowers. Did I really see someone propelling themself through the air via flatulance? ... or was that propulsion emitting from the other end? Bumble bee girl? Teen wolf?
You can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a silly pig.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 22, 2018 15:36:13 GMT
[The scenes are in not so similar because the set up to their conflict is a completely different story. Magneto and Xavier's story of friendship and division drove the entire film. While Killmomger's and Black Panther's story was one of separate lives. It would be out of character for the two to suddenly have a heartfelt deep interaction like Xavier and Magneto had. Yea the scenes aren't exactly the same but its a loose comparison of a basic film trope where villain and hero confront before fighting. The main gist is that in MCU most films, their dialogue is mostly basic and short. They just want to get to the action in a hurry. Both those clips are around 4 minutes long, but First Class one spends its time to slowly build the tension before any action occurs. Black Panthers is a few basic lines and boom, its clobbering time. Same thing happens later in Black Panther when TChalla reveals hes still alive before the war. A few basic lines and we are immeditatly into CGI rhinos and Wakanda soldiers pummelling each other. Compare that to the tense, dramatic build up between Magneto and Shaw in the submarine before he puts the coin through his head. Just watching these short clips shows you why Xmen first class made a pittance over what Black panther made, because Black Panthers story is generic, there's more style than substance with its CGI fights, the villain is 1 dimensional and the dialogue is straightforward so mass audiences from all over the world can easily follow it.This isn't a opinion, its a fact that can be DEMONSTRATED. (talking to skaathar)
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Post by summers8 on Nov 22, 2018 15:44:11 GMT
actually it was magneto that does the pushing.
xavier doing it would be stupid since he is not that guy , magneto is that guy. so in a way it was brilliant since we know magneto likes the thougher methods.
Oh that’s right. Still stupid. not really... for magneto. you cant factually say it is stupid since what magneto did was use good psychology. some humans needs to be put in dangerous situation before they grow the nerves to survive and finally overcome their fear. magneto did just that for banshee. made him overcome his fear. dictionary does not call that stupid.
this also opens a bigger topic remember the shuri is smart even though we have never seen her study or practice? in first class we see the new mutants at school training to be better fighters and scientist. this is part of the depth that black panther lacks as well.
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Post by summers8 on Nov 22, 2018 15:48:17 GMT
XM1C could be Citizen Cane, but it would still be shackled by a cast of character with a variety of ridiculous superpowers. Did I really see someone propelling themself through the air via flatulance? ... or was that propulsion emitting from the other end? Bumble bee girl? Teen wolf? You can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a silly pig. good point... I still remember some of the Briticism of TDK from another director that is is still a stupid movie because the guy is dressed up as a bat.
what mcu movies does is fulfil all the negative stereotypes of comic movies. films like first class or tdk at least tries to bring some intelligence to them despite someone dressing up as a bat and someone with super powers. they are still grounded and themed social forcus. most comic films had to do that due to the ill fated batman and robin when the genre nearly died.
mcu movies have been remaking batman and robin since 2010 all silly, jokey and goofy...thank goodness people are speaking out now.
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