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Post by Feologild Oakes on Nov 28, 2018 10:12:21 GMT
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Post by femalefan on Nov 28, 2018 10:58:37 GMT
I disagree with Duncan. Orc were a species, not an ethnic group.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Nov 28, 2018 11:43:00 GMT
The racism allegation is an old hat. Personally, I was amazed at how racist I found the books when I re-read them as an adult.
Character's race usually determines their behaviour: it's essentially noble white people against an evil dominion of dark skinned people and creatures. From memory, when somebody is looking suspicious/evil (in a bar) he has "swarthy" skin; there is a scene were black people ("Southrons") not evil but seduced by the dark lord ride into Mordor. And the Orc are a race of degenerated (from dark elves I remember) vile creatures who are only portrayed as murderous and evil - a race theorist's wet dream.
Fair skinned people are usually depicted as good, noble or god-like (elves); I cannot think of one "swarthy" good character. In modern epics you do not have that: eg Star Wars: bad guys are as white (or whiter) than good guys. Or GoT: the bad guys are white.
In the end LotR a simplistic black and white story for kids and a product of it's time. I do not care for it anymore. I still would let my kids read it (if they wished and if I had some).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2018 14:18:20 GMT
No, not at all.
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Post by vegalyra on Nov 28, 2018 14:37:30 GMT
I'm no Tolkien scholar but judging from when the books were written, I always figured if anything it was anti-Nazi and Sauron represented Hitler.
EDIT: It appears that I'm completely wrong. Oh well.
I still don't see a racial connotation though.
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Post by James on Nov 28, 2018 15:56:50 GMT
That’s just stupid. The orcs are a threat to the main characters. If he wants to talk about racism, he should acknowledge the small sized Hobbits as the ones being prejudiced.
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Post by papamihel on Nov 28, 2018 16:21:06 GMT
Orc Lives Matter
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Post by vegalyra on Nov 28, 2018 17:27:48 GMT
I guess Tolkien could have written the orcs as being smooth skinned and white with sharp haircuts.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Nov 28, 2018 17:29:36 GMT
This isn't even anything new, this idea has been tossed around before.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Nov 28, 2018 17:43:05 GMT
Duncan's a moron.
The only good Orc is a dead Orc.
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Post by drystyx on Nov 28, 2018 18:14:09 GMT
Nah, you don't discriminate against orcs. You think everyone should own one.
There was a big 40 foot crocodile and a little 2 foot crocodile speaking to each other. They were born on the same day, so the little one asked the big one how he got so big.
"Easy", said the big one. "I sneak up behind every orc I see and eat them. Try that. I'll see you at the Christmas party and see how you're doing."
Come Christmas, they were at the crocodile rock party and the little one was only one foot long now. The big one was 60 feet long, so he said "Why are you so little? Didn't you do what I told you to do?"
"Yes, sir", said the little crocodile. "I snuck up behind orcs every day, said 'boo' and scared the sh.t out of them and then ate them".
"Why you fool, don't you know that when you scare the sh.t out of an orc, all you have left is their Dallas Cowboy jersey and their New York Yankee baseball cap?"
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Post by drystyx on Nov 28, 2018 18:32:27 GMT
The racism allegation is an old hat. Personally, I was amazed at how racist I found the books when I re-read them as an adult. Character's race usually determines their behaviour: it's essentially noble white people against an evil dominion of dark skinned people and creatures. From memory, when somebody is looking suspicious/evil (in a bar) he has "swarthy" skin; there is a scene were black people ("Southrons") not evil but seduced by the dark lord ride into Mordor. And the Orc are a race of degenerated (from dark elves I remember) vile creatures who are only portrayed as murderous and evil - a race theorist's wet dream. Fair skinned people are usually depicted as good, noble or god-like (elves); I cannot think of one "swarthy" good character. In modern epics you do not have that: eg Star Wars: bad guys are as white (or whiter) than good guys. Or GoT: the bad guys are white. In the end LotR a simplistic black and white story for kids and a product of it's time. I do not care for it anymore. I still would let my kids read it (if they wished and if I had some). True. There is a Nazi ideology to Tolkien. I'm talking about the racial ideology that Hitler actually got from some European writers who made sure women were seen as "fair'. The hair and skin of men wasn't important to such writers. The Grimm Brothers were notorious for this. I always got the impression they were snubbed by the hot brunettes of the village they lived in. You can't read their stories without getting that impression. Tolkien was the same way. If there was a brunette, he killed her (Arwen the lone exception, and one gets the impression from the book that Tolkien didn't want to save her. He must've really been jilted bad by some brunette). A blonde woman lived forever. For most boys, this was a dull, homely world, but for those snubbed by the brunettes, it gave them a home world. That's probably why Jackson improved on the book by omitting Tom Bombadil and his super Aryan wife. A good move on Jackson's part, and it saved the film. There's a lot of History involved here, as far as "blond hair and fair skin" is concerned. We live in perhaps the only era in History, engulfing from about 1965 to the present, in which blond hair and fair skin has been seen as ideal. For most of History, the blond has been the "underdog", and not viewed as being beautiful. Hollywood began the trend in a way people somehow don't want to realize. Hollywood uses many different shapes and looks for actors and for brunette women, but the only blond women in Hollywood have been pretty close to 40-22-36. Being tan was helpful, too, but make up and filters and lighting could fix that. Viewers were "brainwashed" to think all blond women were well tan, perfect skin, 40-22-36, and under 30 years old. It was a "package deal". Once the blond woman outgrew the package, she was out the door. This "brainwashing" was on purpose. That's not exactly good news for the blond actress who has to starve herself, jog and run many miles a week, and keep tan and defy the skin cancer demon. Really, though, it's best to just forget it and think of LOTR the way Jackson presented it, in the new improved way. |
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