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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Dec 4, 2018 2:22:46 GMT
i made no value judgement. I don’t care enough. You said the pope was being contradictory and I was simply explaining how wrong you were. WHAT? YOU said this and made a value judgment about homosexuals being a different 'standard'!(you inferred lower) Of course the Pope is being contradictory in the two cases I outlined. Last May he was much more accepting of homosexuals in his comments and now this last article he is toeing the hard core conservative Catholic line of non-acceptance in his clergy. Again, that is the church's stance so I wasn't making the value judgement and I'm not sure why you would attribute it to me considering you were whining directly about their stance. And again, you have shown nothing contradictory despite your insistence you have. As with so many other theophobiacs here, repeating your wrong statement doesn't turn it into a correct one.
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Post by goz on Dec 4, 2018 2:44:16 GMT
WHAT? YOU said this and made a value judgment about homosexuals being a different 'standard'!(you inferred lower) Of course the Pope is being contradictory in the two cases I outlined. Last May he was much more accepting of homosexuals in his comments and now this last article he is toeing the hard core conservative Catholic line of non-acceptance in his clergy. Again, that is the church's stance so I wasn't making the value judgement and I'm not sure why you would attribute it to me considering you were whining directly about their stance. And again, you have shown nothing contradictory despite your insistence you have. As with so many other theophobiacs here, repeating your wrong statement doesn't turn it into a correct one. The statement you made about clergy requiring a 'higher standard' was stated BY YOU. You did not mention that it was the Church's stance hence you made the statement as a value judgment. What is your evidence that it is the church's stance and not just your own value judgment? There is a clear contradiction in the Pope's attitude to homosexuals delineated in the link that I posted with comment from the Pope in May 2018, and the current link posted in this thread where he has gone more 'hard line' in his position against gays.
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Post by mslo79 on Dec 7, 2018 7:56:14 GMT
Aj_Junebasically someone might have homosexual urges etc but as long as they don't act on them (in thought or physical action) no sin is committed. but if they act on those urges and have sex with someone of the same sex, then they are sinning and greatly sinning at that as that's mortal sin territory and if someone dies in a state of mortal sin, they end up in hell for eternity. I know some might say how can a good God 'send' someone to hell forever but it's not really that He sent them to hell but they put themselves there by rejecting God and He simply confirms their choice. like those who die in a state of mortal sin basically hate God and are full of hate etc to the point even if they were given a choice to get to Heaven they would still reject Him because their will is fixed in evil at that point. NOTE: it can be difficult to determine whether someone truly is in a state of mortal sin because there are three things required for it to cross that line but I won't get into this for now. but either way, something that's serious sin(mortal sin) territory needs to be avoided. because while all sin should be avoided, it's mortal sin that's the show stopper because venial sin only wounds ones relationship with God where as mortal sin (serious sin) destroys it. NOTE: even if someone is truly in a state of mortal sin, that's where confession comes into play etc so that they can regain a state of grace which means there is life within the external soul once again. but basically... you could say those who have attraction towards those of the same sex, it's pretty much a cross for them to bear in resisting those urges with the help of God through the sacraments and regular prayer. I know that won't be easy for them though but regular prayer (as in daily prayer) is not optional especially in today's world were immorality is rampant.
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Post by Aj_June on Dec 7, 2018 8:28:12 GMT
Aj_June basically someone might have homosexual urges etc but as long as they don't act on them (in thought or physical action) no sin is committed. but if they act on those urges and have sex with someone of the same sex, then they are sinning and greatly sinning at that as that's mortal sin territory and if someone dies in a state of mortal sin, they end up in hell for eternity. I know some might say how can a good God 'send' someone to hell forever but it's not really that He sent them to hell but they put themselves there by rejecting God and He simply confirms their choice. like those who die in a state of mortal sin basically hate God and are full of hate etc to the point even if they were given a choice to get to Heaven they would still reject Him because their will is fixed in evil at that point. NOTE: it can be difficult to determine whether someone truly is in a state of mortal sin because there are three things required for it to cross that line but I won't get into this for now. but either way, something that's serious sin(mortal sin) territory needs to be avoided. because while all sin should be avoided, it's mortal sin that's the show stopper because venial sin only wounds ones relationship with God where as mortal sin (serious sin) destroys it. NOTE: even if someone is truly in a state of mortal sin, that's where confession comes into play etc so that they can regain a state of grace which means there is life within the external soul once again. but basically... you could say those who have attraction towards those of the same sex, it's pretty much a cross for them to bear in resisting those urges with the help of God through the sacraments and regular prayer. I know that won't be easy for them though but regular prayer (as in daily prayer) is not optional especially in today's world were immorality is rampant. Sorry dude, but creating ethics and ascribing them to others based on one's personal fantasies such as fantasies about places called eternal hell is downright stupid. For example, it would be ridiculous to say that you are going to hell based on Jain beliefs or Hindu beliefs or Buddhist beliefs. You can of course say all these things but you are being unethical in saying that gays are going to eternal hell for acting on their homosexuality. The good thing is that many Catholics have started to disbelieve in idiotic concepts such as the belief in eternal hell.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 7, 2018 9:48:36 GMT
Aj_June basically someone might have homosexual urges etc but as long as they don't act on them (in thought or physical action) no sin is committed. but if they act on those urges and have sex with someone of the same sex, then they are sinning and greatly sinning at that as that's mortal sin territory and if someone dies in a state of mortal sin, they end up in hell for eternity. I know some might say how can a good God 'send' someone to hell forever but it's not really that He sent them to hell but they put themselves there by rejecting God and He simply confirms their choice. like those who die in a state of mortal sin basically hate God and are full of hate etc to the point even if they were given a choice to get to Heaven they would still reject Him because their will is fixed in evil at that point. NOTE: it can be difficult to determine whether someone truly is in a state of mortal sin because there are three things required for it to cross that line but I won't get into this for now. but either way, something that's serious sin(mortal sin) territory needs to be avoided. because while all sin should be avoided, it's mortal sin that's the show stopper because venial sin only wounds ones relationship with God where as mortal sin (serious sin) destroys it. NOTE: even if someone is truly in a state of mortal sin, that's where confession comes into play etc so that they can regain a state of grace which means there is life within the external soul once again. but basically... you could say those who have attraction towards those of the same sex, it's pretty much a cross for them to bear in resisting those urges with the help of God through the sacraments and regular prayer. I know that won't be easy for them though but regular prayer (as in daily prayer) is not optional especially in today's world were immorality is rampant. Sorry dude, but creating ethics and ascribing them to others based on one's personal fantasies such as fantasies about places called eternal hell is downright stupid. For example, it would be ridiculous to say that you are going to hell based on Jain beliefs or Hindu beliefs or Buddhist beliefs. You can of course say all these things but you are being unethical in saying that gays are going to eternal hell for acting on their homosexuality. The good thing is that many Catholics have started to disbelieve in idiotic concepts such as the belief in eternal hell. It's a good thing for you and the other antireligious globalists, and news for many Catholics. Now they are going to have to find out the hard way that hell is real, and that not believing in it does not render it unreal.
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Post by Aj_June on Dec 7, 2018 10:11:11 GMT
Sorry dude, but creating ethics and ascribing them to others based on one's personal fantasies such as fantasies about places called eternal hell is downright stupid. For example, it would be ridiculous to say that you are going to hell based on Jain beliefs or Hindu beliefs or Buddhist beliefs. You can of course say all these things but you are being unethical in saying that gays are going to eternal hell for acting on their homosexuality. The good thing is that many Catholics have started to disbelieve in idiotic concepts such as the belief in eternal hell. It's a good thing for you and the other antireligious globalists, and news for many Catholics. Now they are going to have to find out the hard way that hell is real, and that not believing in it does not render it unreal. The Catholic Church is in a state of total confusion and even they realise that they can't go on forever carrying their stone-age mentality. Eventually, they will give up their belief in eternal hell. As for the hell being real please give me the coordinates of that place. I will be happy to check that place out and satisfy myself unless you are talking about the place called Hell that is located in Norway. I can give you coordinates of that real Hell.
Coordinates: 63.4444°N 10.9227°E (Hell, Norway).
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Dec 7, 2018 14:35:26 GMT
Again, that is the church's stance so I wasn't making the value judgement and I'm not sure why you would attribute it to me considering you were whining directly about their stance. And again, you have shown nothing contradictory despite your insistence you have. As with so many other theophobiacs here, repeating your wrong statement doesn't turn it into a correct one. The statement you made about clergy requiring a 'higher standard' was stated BY YOU. You did not mention that it was the Church's stance hence you made the statement as a value judgment. What is your evidence that it is the church's stance and not just your own value judgment? There is a clear contradiction in the Pope's attitude to homosexuals delineated in the link that I posted with comment from the Pope in May 2018, and the current link posted in this thread where he has gone more 'hard line' in his position against gays. By me based on what the pope said. I am not the pope. I don’t even speak the language.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 7, 2018 16:39:07 GMT
It's a good thing for you and the other antireligious globalists, and news for many Catholics. Now they are going to have to find out the hard way that hell is real, and that not believing in it does not render it unreal. The Catholic Church is in a state of total confusion and even they realise that they can't go on forever carrying their stone-age mentality. Eventually, they will give up their belief in eternal hell. As for the hell being real please give me the coordinates of that place. I will be happy to check that place out and satisfy myself unless you are talking about the place called Hell that is located in Norway. I can give you coordinates of that real Hell.
Coordinates: 63.4444°N 10.9227°E (Hell, Norway).
Iron-age mentality. Yes, it's in confusion, and it was planned that way. The Catholic Church and all other religions will be melded into a one-world religion in the coming years, and that too was planned. Don't know if hell is eternal or the coordinates, but I do know that it's an actual and utterly miserable state of existence. Have a nice day.
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Post by Aj_June on Dec 7, 2018 16:44:17 GMT
The Catholic Church is in a state of total confusion and even they realise that they can't go on forever carrying their stone-age mentality. Eventually, they will give up their belief in eternal hell. As for the hell being real please give me the coordinates of that place. I will be happy to check that place out and satisfy myself unless you are talking about the place called Hell that is located in Norway. I can give you coordinates of that real Hell.
Coordinates: 63.4444°N 10.9227°E (Hell, Norway).
Iron-age mentality. Yes, it's in confusion, and it was planned that way. The Catholic Church and all other religions will be melded into a one-world religion in the coming years, and that too was planned. Don't know if hell is eternal or the coordinates, but I do know that it's an actual and utterly miserable state of existence. Have a nice day. That there is going to be just one religion in the future is just your belief. There is no reasonable evidence of that. One way that could be possible is if one of the religions become so powerful that their members start forcing that religion on others. At the moment it is not looking anything like that is possible. But you can hold your belief. As for the hell being "a miserable state of existence" that is fine. Many people do find themselves in utterly miserable state of existence. That can happen for various reasons. Even for no great reasons. People can suffer from depression, bad conscience, past bad behaviour or various other things. It's subjective. One particular religion's doctrine hasn't got a monopoly on who feels miserable.
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Post by goz on Dec 7, 2018 20:00:49 GMT
The statement you made about clergy requiring a 'higher standard' was stated BY YOU. You did not mention that it was the Church's stance hence you made the statement as a value judgment. What is your evidence that it is the church's stance and not just your own value judgment? There is a clear contradiction in the Pope's attitude to homosexuals delineated in the link that I posted with comment from the Pope in May 2018, and the current link posted in this thread where he has gone more 'hard line' in his position against gays. By me based on what the pope said. I am not the pope. I don’t even speak the language. By YOU. Yes. You can base your opinion on what many people say, though if you state it on a public message Board, unquoted, it will remain your opinion. It is self evident you are not the Pope and that you don't speak the language is as irrelevant as this red herring statement of yours.
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Post by goz on Dec 7, 2018 20:25:02 GMT
Aj_June basically someone might have homosexual urges etc but as long as they don't act on them (in thought or physical action) no sin is committed. but if they act on those urges and have sex with someone of the same sex, then they are sinning and greatly sinning at that as that's mortal sin territory and if someone dies in a state of mortal sin, they end up in hell for eternity. I know some might say how can a good God 'send' someone to hell forever but it's not really that He sent them to hell but they put themselves there by rejecting God and He simply confirms their choice. like those who die in a state of mortal sin basically hate God and are full of hate etc to the point even if they were given a choice to get to Heaven they would still reject Him because their will is fixed in evil at that point. NOTE: it can be difficult to determine whether someone truly is in a state of mortal sin because there are three things required for it to cross that line but I won't get into this for now. but either way, something that's serious sin(mortal sin) territory needs to be avoided. because while all sin should be avoided, it's mortal sin that's the show stopper because venial sin only wounds ones relationship with God where as mortal sin (serious sin) destroys it. NOTE: even if someone is truly in a state of mortal sin, that's where confession comes into play etc so that they can regain a state of grace which means there is life within the external soul once again. but basically... you could say those who have attraction towards those of the same sex, it's pretty much a cross for them to bear in resisting those urges with the help of God through the sacraments and regular prayer. I know that won't be easy for them though but regular prayer (as in daily prayer) is not optional especially in today's world were immorality is rampant. Do you know what? You, as a Catholic reciting all these 'rules' for human behaviour, remind me of someone reciting the rules of 'Monopoly' or similar 'Game of Life'. It sounds so 'glib'. Can you even imagine what you are saying here in the 'rules'? These are human beings, individuals who happen to be 'gay'. Where is the Christian understanding, love of Jesus and compassion for the fellow man? I find all religions abhorrent for this reason. They project rules onto groups and individuals merely for power and control. I find the Catholic Church one of the worst in this regard. They require unachievable 'morals' (which are 'subjective' to the extreme and based on opinions of those in power in the Church) they castigate 'sinners' and threaten them with the illusory yet frightening 'burning in hell for an eternity'. "Love of Jesus personified" ![](https://s26.postimg.cc/480s321zt/eyes.gif) , THEN the kicker...WE make the impossible rules for you butt IT IS YOUR FAULT WHEN YOU BREAK THEM! ( even the priests get sucked into this one with their arbitrary rule of celibacy and then the required coverup when many of them break it with the most vulnerable members of their flock) The whole Catholic system is APPALLING. It has resulted in appalling misery and suffering. It has made people live with 'Catholic guilt' their entire lives. Missionaries have destroyed entire communities and cultures. The ban on birth control has had disastrous effects on population in the most vulnerable areas. The banning of contraception has led to the AIDS outbreak being uncontained in Africa and Asia. As mentioned above the 'celibacy' of priests has led to an appalling situation for millions of children. The discrimination against gay people has led to untold misery as you, yourself outline above. The Catholic Church has archaic, untenable rules which do more harm than good and is more interested in maintaining it power and wealth than serving the people it should be serving.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Dec 7, 2018 20:35:15 GMT
By me based on what the pope said. I am not the pope. I don’t even speak the language. By YOU. Yes. You can base your opinion on what many people say, though if you state it on a public message Board, unquoted, it will remain your opinion. It is self evident you are not the Pope and that you don't speak the language is as irrelevant as this red herring statement of yours. will you simply tell me what you think I’m saying beyond what I said.
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Post by goz on Dec 7, 2018 20:47:12 GMT
By YOU. Yes. You can base your opinion on what many people say, though if you state it on a public message Board, unquoted, it will remain your opinion. It is self evident you are not the Pope and that you don't speak the language is as irrelevant as this red herring statement of yours. will you simply tell me what you think I’m saying beyond what I said. That is not the point. You said you didn't post an 'opinion' about I said you did. YOU said the Pope said it. I asked for the quote, and you didn't post it. As your opinion remains unquoted, what you said must be only your opinion that clergy must have a higher standard (than homosexuals in context) in their ranks.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Dec 7, 2018 21:14:38 GMT
will you simply tell me what you think I’m saying beyond what I said. That is not the point. You said you didn't post an 'opinion' about I said you did. YOU said the Pope said it. I asked for the quote, and you didn't post it. As your opinion remains unquoted, what you said must be only your opinion that clergy must have a higher standard (than homosexuals in context) in their ranks. sonbecause I paraphrased the pope (Literally the article topic this thread was created for) that gave you the right to presume it was an opinion I held despite not being clergy or Catholic. You’re such a bigot.
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Post by goz on Dec 7, 2018 21:44:14 GMT
That is not the point. You said you didn't post an 'opinion' about I said you did. YOU said the Pope said it. I asked for the quote, and you didn't post it. As your opinion remains unquoted, what you said must be only your opinion that clergy must have a higher standard (than homosexuals in context) in their ranks. sonbecause I paraphrased the pope (Literally the article topic this thread was created for) that gave you the right to presume it was an opinion I held despite not being clergy or Catholic. You’re such a bigot. Why does YOU posting your opinion of the Catholic clergy make me a bigot?
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