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Post by twothousandonemark on Dec 10, 2018 5:59:54 GMT
Baines & Smith suggests to me that recent player voters are signalling that DH & closers ought to be recognized on any/all balloting. Neither should be hall of famers though. I think you hit it there. It is like the modern political atmosphere, inclusivity and the recognition of the diversity. Someday, Andrew Miller, Rob Dibble, David Robertson, Ron Davis and all the dominant middle relievers will be considered too. Well, I would be voting for Edgar Martinez & Mariano Rivera, DH & closer are MLB positions. Just as more punters & kickers should be in the Pro Football HOF. They're not the Halls of Select Few Player Positions, they're the Halls of their sports. Anyone who would be suggesting that Shane Lechler is as great a player as Steve Young should be exiled, yet I think they're equally HOFers for their positions. |
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Post by OrsonSwelles on Dec 10, 2018 6:19:17 GMT
Were either of these guys tainted with steroid, etc. rumours? Smith should have been in before Hoffmann so they're just fixing a past mistake. And not wanting to repeat a possible similar mistake they put Baines in now before EMartinez got voted in. Ortiz (hopefully) isn't getting in.
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Post by nutsberryfarm 🏜 on Dec 10, 2018 10:04:27 GMT
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Post by millar70 on Dec 10, 2018 10:10:30 GMT
I had no idea Lee Smith was an Oriole. Jesus, that must have been late in his career. |
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Post by tristramshandy on Dec 10, 2018 11:01:46 GMT
I had no idea Lee Smith was an Oriole. Jesus, that must have been late in his career. He gets a little Steve Carlton-y at the end of his career, but that one Baltimore season, he lead the league in saves, was an all-star, and was 5th in the Cy Young voting. His eight innings as a Yankee and single seasons with the Reds and Expos are much more non-descript. |
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Dec 10, 2018 12:37:05 GMT
Maybe because the 16 people who did this voting are Hall of Famers themselves and have a right to elect their peers that they feel are worthy? Jesus Christ I can’t stand the BBWAA, and for that matter the football ones too. |
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Post by OrsonSwelles on Dec 10, 2018 14:35:45 GMT
If upon a player’s retirement he finishes his career as the ALL-TIME career leader in something, he’s hall worthy. It's easy to be an all-time leader when no one is even close in opportunities. Maybe no one was close in opportunities because he was healthy, consistent AND good while others of the era weren't. BTW he was the all time leader in saves from 1993-2006. The modern save has been going on for 30+ years now. How many guys have more than him? |
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Post by fjenkins on Dec 10, 2018 15:53:44 GMT
Good for Lee Smith. Harold Baines getting in bodes well for Edgar Martinez and Big Papi.
Papi flunked a steroid test. If Bonds and Clemens ain't getting, he aint. |
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Post by fjenkins on Dec 10, 2018 15:54:22 GMT
This may be a final nail in the coffin for the Baseball Hall of Fame. Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Pat Gillick, Tony La Russa, Greg Maddux, Joe Morgan, John Schuerholz, Ozzie Smith , Joe Torre, Al Avila, Paul Beeston, Andy MacPhail and Jerry Reinsdorf; and veteran media members/historians Steve Hirdt, Tim Kurkjian and Claire Smith. These people should be hanging their heads in shame tonight. Seriously. It's time to start a whole new Hall of Fame. Reboot. |
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Post by fjenkins on Dec 10, 2018 15:56:21 GMT
Lee Smith definitely belongs and should have been in already.
But Baines. Wow.
This opens the door for a ton of average and just above good players.
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Post by Rufus-T on Dec 10, 2018 17:05:38 GMT
I remember the radio cried foul when Bill Mazeroski was voted in. I never saw him play. From what I heard, he was only known for the 1960 WS HR. He got a lots of buddy in the voting committee as I heard, so he got in. For some reason that is beyond me, how does Gil Hodges never voted in. He was an integral part of the 50s Dodgers. He brought the Amazing Mets to the 1969 WS championship. How the hell did it took Jim Rice 15 years on the ballot to get in? He should have been there at most in his 3 year. I just heard that Albert Belle is one of the candidates this year. How is it he is not voted in over Harold Baines? Talking about dominant player, Albert Belle was it in back in the 90s, cork or no cork. These voters obviously are not voting unbiasedly.
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Post by Rufus-T on Dec 10, 2018 17:11:25 GMT
Good for Lee Smith. Harold Baines getting in bodes well for Edgar Martinez and Big Papi.
Papi flunked a steroid test. If Bonds and Clemens ain't getting, he aint. Unlike Bonds and Clemens, Papi got love flowing across Japan. He got so much love that voters may ignore the fact like they did with Pudge. I was surprised Pudge got in on first ballot. |
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Dec 10, 2018 17:18:34 GMT
I remember the radio cried foul when Bill Mazeroski was voted in. I never saw him play. From what I heard, he was only known for the 1960 WS HR. He got a lots of buddy in the voting committee as I heard, so he got in. For some reason that is beyond me, how does Gil Hodges never voted in. He was an integral part of the 50s Dodgers. He brought the Amazing Mets to the 1969 WS championship. How the hell did it took Jim Rice 15 years on the ballot to get in? He should have been there at most in his 3 year. I just heard that Albert Belle is one of the candidates this year. How is it he is not voted in over Harold Baines? Talking about dominant player, Albert Belle was it in back in the 90s, cork or no cork. These voters obviously are not voting unbiasedly. Maz is most famous for that home run, but he was also the Ozzie Smith of 2b in his day. He wasn’t some scrub off the bench. |
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Post by NJtoTX on Dec 10, 2018 18:02:54 GMT
Lee Smith HOF votes:
2003 BBWAA (42.3%)
2004 BBWAA (36.6%)
2005 BBWAA (38.8%)
2006 BBWAA (45.0%)
2007 BBWAA (39.8%)
2008 BBWAA (43.3%)
2009 BBWAA (44.5%)
2010 BBWAA (47.3%)
2011 BBWAA (45.3%)
2012 BBWAA (50.6%)
2013 BBWAA (47.8%)
2014 BBWAA (29.9%)
2015 BBWAA (30.2%)
2016 BBWAA (34.1%)
2017 BBWAA (34.2%)
Harold Baines
2007 BBWAA ( 5.3%)
2008 BBWAA ( 5.2%)
2009 BBWAA ( 5.9%)
2010 BBWAA ( 6.1%)
2011 BBWAA ( 4.8%)
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Post by klawrencio79 on Dec 10, 2018 19:03:57 GMT
I'm with the others on here about Baines, but it's funny when you look at his numbers, they are almost perfectly aligned with another HOFer in Tony Perez. I never saw Perez play so I can't speak of his defensive prowess, and he seems to have a reputation as being a "clutch" guy for the Big Red Machines teams of the 70s. But going by the stats alone, here's a guy who never once led the league in any statistical category other than in 1980 when he led the league in grounding into double plays. His highest finish in MVP voting was 3 in 1970, with another 7th and 8th place finish in there among his career achievements. He got voted in by the writers in 2000, which looks like it was his second-to-last year of eligibility.
Again, I don't know much about Perez as he's before my time but just going by the stat sheet, he and Baines are basically carbon copies of one another, but for the fact that Baines was a DH and Perez wasn't.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Dec 10, 2018 19:19:26 GMT
I'm with the others on here about Baines, but it's funny when you look at his numbers, they are almost perfectly aligned with another HOFer in Tony Perez. I never saw Perez play so I can't speak of his defensive prowess, and he seems to have a reputation as being a "clutch" guy for the Big Red Machines teams of the 70s. But going by the stats alone, here's a guy who never once led the league in any statistical category other than in 1980 when he led the league in grounding into double plays. His highest finish in MVP voting was 3 in 1970, with another 7th and 8th place finish in there among his career achievements. He got voted in by the writers in 2000, which looks like it was his second-to-last year of eligibility. Again, I don't know much about Perez as he's before my time but just going by the stat sheet, he and Baines are basically carbon copies of one another, but for the fact that Baines was a DH and Perez wasn't. I think the Big Red Machine, while truly great, is a bit romanticized, kind of like the 70s Steelers. Perez put his numbers up in the offensively challenged 70s, albeit with Rose and Morgan always on base ahead of him. Baines was an accumulator in a more offensive period while, like you said, playing mostly DH. He got in? Great, happy for him. I doubt I would have voted for him. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 19:22:41 GMT
It's easy to be an all-time leader when no one is even close in opportunities. Maybe no one was close in opportunities because he was healthy, consistent AND good while others of the era weren't. BTW he was the all time leader in saves from 1993-2006. The modern save has been going on for 30+ years now. How many guys have more than him? Nope.
As I stated above, the save was a new stat that wasn't used nearly as much. Lee Smith is more a product of timing than anything else.
1969-1979 (First 11 years of the save stat): 8209 league saves 1980-1990 (First 11 years of Smith's career): 10592 league saves
1969-1979 (First 11 years of the save stat): 8725 complete games
1980-1990 (First 11 years of Smith's career): 5184 complete games
Prior to Smith's time, the game was managed differently.
1969-1981 (First 13 years of save stat): 9716 league saves 1982-1994 (First 13 years of Smith's closer career): 13295 league saves
1969-1981 (First 13 years of save stat): 9786 complete games 1982-1994 (First 13 years of Smith's closer career): 5151 complete games
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Dec 10, 2018 19:32:38 GMT
Maybe no one was close in opportunities because he was healthy, consistent AND good while others of the era weren't. BTW he was the all time leader in saves from 1993-2006. The modern save has been going on for 30+ years now. How many guys have more than him? Nope.
As I stated above, the save was a new stat that wasn't used nearly as much. Lee Smith is more a product of timing than anything else.
1969-1979 (First 11 years of the save stat): 8209 league saves 1980-1990 (First 11 years of Smith's career): 10592 league saves
1969-1979 (First 11 years of the save stat): 8725 complete games
1980-1990 (First 11 years of Smith's career): 5184 complete games
Prior to Smith's time, the game was managed differently.
1969-1981 (First 13 years of save stat): 9716 league saves 1982-1994 (First 13 years of Smith's closer career): 13295 league saves
1969-1981 (First 13 years of save stat): 9786 complete games 1982-1994 (First 13 years of Smith's closer career): 5151 complete games
Smith May have been used more than a guy like Bruce Sutter or Kent Tekulve, but he still ended his career as the all-time leader. He’s still number 3 only behind Rivera and Hoffman. That means something and he should have been elected on the writers’ ballot. |
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Post by Rufus-T on Dec 10, 2018 19:51:58 GMT
Maybe no one was close in opportunities because he was healthy, consistent AND good while others of the era weren't. BTW he was the all time leader in saves from 1993-2006. The modern save has been going on for 30+ years now. How many guys have more than him? Nope.
As I stated above, the save was a new stat that wasn't used nearly as much. Lee Smith is more a product of timing than anything else.
1969-1979 (First 11 years of the save stat): 8209 league saves 1980-1990 (First 11 years of Smith's career): 10592 league saves
1969-1979 (First 11 years of the save stat): 8725 complete games
1980-1990 (First 11 years of Smith's career): 5184 complete games
Prior to Smith's time, the game was managed differently.
1969-1981 (First 13 years of save stat): 9716 league saves 1982-1994 (First 13 years of Smith's closer career): 13295 league saves
1969-1981 (First 13 years of save stat): 9786 complete games 1982-1994 (First 13 years of Smith's closer career): 5151 complete games
Closers are taking a prominent role in the game. The way that the game is being managed by Tampa Bay and The Brewers, middle relief is gaining more importance. The dominant starters is dwindling to a selected few. The recognition of closers opens the door for the above average closers like Billy Wagner, Francisco Rodríguez, John Franco, and Troy Percival, and God forbid, Jose Mesa. |
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 10, 2018 20:12:28 GMT
Baines will be looked on in 20 years as one of the most unfortunate HOFers ever. Hall of Longevity, yes. Hall of Consistent, yes. Hall of Fame, no. OK, 2866 hits, 384 HRs and a .289 BA are very nice numbers. But he played for 1000 years. I don't think he owned a glove after age 28. 22 year career and only six AS games, four top 20 MVP votes (none after age 26) and one Silver Slugger. Not the mark of one of the elite players in baseball history.
Smith is less black and white. Was he ever THE closer in baseball, no. Well maybe. Led his league is saves four time, three after age 33. Four top five finishes in the Cy voting, three after age 33. Seven all-star games, five after age 33. I always think of him in the Cubs pinstripes, but he was at his best after he left Chicago. Not sure if was ever in the Eckersley/Fingers/Gossage level of a closer. The guy who, when he came into the game, the other team said "OH shit, game over". That's what I would say makes a HOF closer.
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