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Post by Arlon10 on Dec 14, 2018 8:53:56 GMT
The attitude still appears on this discussion board that an ad hominem is a failure of logic or a failure of social propriety.
Although children prefer not to be corrected in public and many adults prefer not to have to witness them being corrected in public, it does become necessary in the course of various human activities for one individual or group to correct another individual or group. There is no rule of logic or social propriety that forbids all correction ever.
There are however indeed some specific instances where an ad hominem is a failure of logic. When the personal characteristics of one of the proponents of some idea are not relevant to the idea of the topic itself then depending on the those irrelevant characteristics to defeat the idea is not logical. The key is to be able to identify the relevance of critical comments.
If I had a dollar for every time some poorly schooled child claimed to be more "logical" when he is not, I could retire comfortably, but please grow up anyway. Please understand that when I make an ad hominem comment and stand by it I am proud of it, as well I should be, having correctly ascertained the relevance of that information.
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Post by progressiveelement on Dec 14, 2018 9:17:40 GMT
I tend to hit people when correcting them.
😬 WRONG!!!!! Time for a slap!!!!
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Post by rizdek on Dec 14, 2018 10:26:39 GMT
Attacking someone with ad hominem comments for poor logic is not an ad hominem argument. And you're a moron for thinking it is  |
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Post by Arlon10 on Dec 14, 2018 11:12:04 GMT
Attacking someone with ad hominem comments for poor logic is not an ad hominem argument. And you're a moron for thinking it is When you have any idea what I think I will let you know. Don't hold your breath though. I have reviewed what I actually said and found it to be spot on. You are fiddling with words you don't entirely appreciate. |
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Post by rizdek on Dec 14, 2018 12:40:50 GMT
Attacking someone with ad hominem comments for poor logic is not an ad hominem argument. And you're a moron for thinking it is When you have any idea what I think I will let you know. Don't hold your breath though. I have reviewed what I actually said and found it to be spot on. You are fiddling with words you don't entirely appreciate. An ad hominem argument is when you say someone's argument is wrong because they are a moron rather than address the point and identify the flaw. Is this what you do? |
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Post by Aj_June on Dec 14, 2018 12:52:17 GMT
Attacking someone with ad hominem comments for poor logic is not an ad hominem argument. And you're a moron for thinking it is When you have any idea what I think I will let you know. Don't hold your breath though. I have reviewed what I actually said and found it to be spot on. You are fiddling with words you don't entirely appreciate. I like your style, man, You are sometimes awesome. |
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Post by general313 on Dec 14, 2018 15:46:42 GMT
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Post by Vegas on Dec 14, 2018 17:05:27 GMT
I have no problem with calling an idiot an idiot...
I don't usually make that my entire argument... I will usually point out to the idiot the idiotness of his ways.
And I don't usually point out the obvious fact that they are an idiot until after they have proved it to be true.
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Post by Aj_June on Dec 14, 2018 17:18:06 GMT
I have no problem with calling an idiot an idiot... I don't usually make that my entire argument... I will usually point out to the idiot the idiotness of his ways. And I don't usually point out the obvious fact that they are an idiot until after they have proved it to be true. Here is my unsolicited advice:
As much as possible try to find the middle ground. Not that I am always saintly but I try my best to develop some degree of empathy with the person I am trying to discuss topics. Unless the other person gets totally adamant on not accepting my forwarded hands of reconciliation I usually do not enter into a fight. I differ with people like Erjen, Goz, Smith, Rachel and many others on certain issues but I try to avoid developing a confrontation. Although it may be because I detest confrontations. If you like a bit of banter every now and then I can understand why you like calling an idiot an idiot.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 14, 2018 17:40:57 GMT
I have no problem with calling an idiot an idiot... I don't usually make that my entire argument... I will usually point out to the idiot the idiotness of his ways. And I don't usually point out the obvious fact that they are an idiot until after they have proved it to be true. Here is my unsolicited advice:
As much as possible try to find the middle ground. Not that I am always saintly but I try my best to develop some degree of empathy with the person I am trying to discuss topics. Unless the other person gets totally adamant on not accepting my forwarded hands of reconciliation I usually do not enter into a fight. I differ with people like Erjen, Goz, Smith, Rachel and many others on certain issues but I try to avoid developing a confrontation. Although it may be because I detest confrontations. If you like a bit of banter every now and then I can understand why you like calling an idiot an idiot.
There's something out there, Aj, and it's coming for you. It's coming for all of us. Just because I don't talk about it much anymore doesn't mean I have reversed myself. No, I can't prove it. All I can do is try to talk to people about it. You don't believe it. Vegas doesn't believe it. Arlon10 doesn't believe it. All of you are proceeding as if you have plenty of time, and you don't have it. Now, for saying things like what I said above I get called an idiot by some. I don't care. I truly couldn't care less. If the worst problem I had was being called an idiot by idiots, then my life would be near-perfect. |
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Post by Aj_June on Dec 14, 2018 17:52:47 GMT
Here is my unsolicited advice:
As much as possible try to find the middle ground. Not that I am always saintly but I try my best to develop some degree of empathy with the person I am trying to discuss topics. Unless the other person gets totally adamant on not accepting my forwarded hands of reconciliation I usually do not enter into a fight. I differ with people like Erjen, Goz, Smith, Rachel and many others on certain issues but I try to avoid developing a confrontation. Although it may be because I detest confrontations. If you like a bit of banter every now and then I can understand why you like calling an idiot an idiot.
There's something out there, Aj, and it's coming for you. It's coming for all of us. Just because I don't talk about it much anymore doesn't mean I have reversed myself. No, I can't prove it. All I can do is try to talk to people about it. You don't believe it. Vegas doesn't believe it. Arlon10 doesn't believe it. All of you are proceeding as if you have plenty of time, and you don't have it. Now, for saying things like what I said above I get called an idiot by some. I don't care. I truly couldn't care less. If the worst problem I had was being called an idiot by idiots, then my life would be near-perfect. I appreciate the concern for others that you have but you should also think from our point of view. We do not see anything unusual in the world now than it was anytime in the past. Most of us have our own unique problems that we believe presents a greater concern for us and our future and thus we try to think more about those problems than the problems that are not visible to us or that are not our immediate priority. I recently left Australia for India and even in India, I decided to move to Bombay where I have never lived before. In the last 1 week, I was trying to get a place to rent. Finally, I found one after looking for 5 days and I am going to move to the new place on Sunday. Now I am looking for a new job. Also, I found an unfurnished place so have to buy necessary items like mattress, freeze and stove. I am worried about all those things and what place I will work next. The mind is already concerned and clouded with worries. That said I can understand that you have your own point of view and your own experiences and thus you are trying to make us aware of how you feel about the future. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 14, 2018 17:59:34 GMT
There's something out there, Aj, and it's coming for you. It's coming for all of us. Just because I don't talk about it much anymore doesn't mean I have reversed myself. No, I can't prove it. All I can do is try to talk to people about it. You don't believe it. Vegas doesn't believe it. Arlon10 doesn't believe it. All of you are proceeding as if you have plenty of time, and you don't have it. Now, for saying things like what I said above I get called an idiot by some. I don't care. I truly couldn't care less. If the worst problem I had was being called an idiot by idiots, then my life would be near-perfect. I appreciate the concern for others that you have but you should also think from our point of view. We do not see anything unusual in the world now than it was anytime in the past. Most of us have our own unique problems that we believe presents a greater concern for us and our future and thus we try to think more about those problems than the problems that are not visible to us or that are not our immediate priority. I recently left Australia for India and even in India, I decided to move to Bombay where I have never lived before. In the last 1 week, I was trying to get a place to rent. Finally, I found one after looking for 5 days and I am going to move to the new place on Sunday. Now I am looking for a new job. Also, I found an unfurnished place so have to buy things if necessity like a mattress, freeze and stove. I am worried about all those things and what place I will work next. The mind is already concerned and clouded with worries. That said I can understand that you have your own point of view and your own experiences and thus you are trying to make us aware of how you feel about the future. It's very easy to think from your point of view because I was one of you once. I remember what it was like. And then something amazing happened. I woke up. |
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Post by Vegas on Dec 14, 2018 18:12:19 GMT
There's something out there, Aj, and it's coming for you. It's coming for all of us. Just because I don't talk about it much anymore doesn't mean I have reversed myself. No, I can't prove it. All I can do is try to talk to people about it. You don't believe it. Vegas doesn't believe it. Arlon10 doesn't believe it. All of you are proceeding as if you have plenty of time, and you don't have it. Now, for saying things like what I said above I get called an idiot by some. I don't care. I truly couldn't care less. If the worst problem I had was being called an idiot by idiots, then my life would be near-perfect. Now.. I don't think you're an idiot for the whole Nibiru thing.... It's just silly.  |
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Post by Aj_June on Dec 14, 2018 18:17:18 GMT
I appreciate the concern for others that you have but you should also think from our point of view. We do not see anything unusual in the world now than it was anytime in the past. Most of us have our own unique problems that we believe presents a greater concern for us and our future and thus we try to think more about those problems than the problems that are not visible to us or that are not our immediate priority. I recently left Australia for India and even in India, I decided to move to Bombay where I have never lived before. In the last 1 week, I was trying to get a place to rent. Finally, I found one after looking for 5 days and I am going to move to the new place on Sunday. Now I am looking for a new job. Also, I found an unfurnished place so have to buy things if necessity like a mattress, freeze and stove. I am worried about all those things and what place I will work next. The mind is already concerned and clouded with worries. That said I can understand that you have your own point of view and your own experiences and thus you are trying to make us aware of how you feel about the future. It's very easy to think from your point of view because I was one of you once. I remember what it was like. And then something amazing happened. I woke up. Well, but aren't you still thinking from your point of view? May be you are concerned about welfare of others but you are still thinking from your point of view just like the rest of us. If you are not thinking from your point of view then from whose point of view are you thinking now? |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 14, 2018 18:17:46 GMT
There's something out there, Aj, and it's coming for you. It's coming for all of us. Just because I don't talk about it much anymore doesn't mean I have reversed myself. No, I can't prove it. All I can do is try to talk to people about it. You don't believe it. Vegas doesn't believe it. Arlon10 doesn't believe it. All of you are proceeding as if you have plenty of time, and you don't have it. Now, for saying things like what I said above I get called an idiot by some. I don't care. I truly couldn't care less. If the worst problem I had was being called an idiot by idiots, then my life would be near-perfect. Now.. I don't think you're an idiot for the whole Nibiru thing.... It's just silly. That's cool. If I can't have a perfect world I'll settle for honesty, and you are nothing if not honest. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 14, 2018 18:23:30 GMT
It's very easy to think from your point of view because I was one of you once. I remember what it was like. And then something amazing happened. I woke up. Well, but aren't you still thinking from your point of view? May be you are concerned about welfare of others but you are still thinking from your point of view just like the rest of us. If you are not thinking from your point of view then from whose point of view are you thinking now? I think from as many points of view as I can get, including Satan's point of view. Satan knows he has only a short time, but a short time for him is still much longer than you and I have got. |
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Post by Arlon10 on Dec 15, 2018 10:49:06 GMT
To clear up the misunderstandings such as they might still be ... The expression "ad hominem" is Latin. The "ad" part is a Latin preposition very similar in meaning and use to the English preposition "to" insofar as it "addresses" or "directs" something. The "hominem" part is a Latin noun meaning "man" usually in the sense of "human being" or "person" or "an instance of mankind." Another Latin word for "man" is "vir" and more directly means a male person much as "femina" means a female person. Got that? Ad hominem means "to the person" (directed at, addressed to the person) much like ad infinitum means "to infinity." Latin is complicated as Latin verbs have endings that indicate person and Latin nouns have endings that indicate grammatical case. The "em" part of "hominem" indicates the accusative (objective) case because it is the object of the preposition "ad." So far the expression ad hominem does not imply any misdirection or failure of logic. There can be circumstances in which it is perfectly logical to consider some person. It does not directly indicate "instead" of something other than the person. The Latin word for "instead" is "pro." On a chart in this topic from general313 and correct enough in that context it shows that an ad hominem "attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument." However the correct full Latin for that would be "ad hominem pro disputationem." By itself "ad hominem" does not indicate anything was ignored. The "ad hominem fallacy" or the simple "ad hominem" in the context of fallacies is indeed a failure to properly address the topical argument. However this should not be extended to every context and use of the simple expression ad hominem. A special hazard of the internet is context. In casual discussion boards especially there can be assumptions about context that are not shared by all participants. A stunning example is how people extend the meaning of ad hominem in a special context to mean exactly that in every context. Is all that clear? Another source of confusion where the "justified" use of ad hominem is concerned involves the difference between facts and opinions. For best practice, opinions of adult strangers should not be challenged at all except as they might be in disharmony with facts. Is all that clear? |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 15, 2018 10:59:43 GMT
To clear up the misunderstandings such as they might still be ... The expression "ad hominem" is Latin. The "ad" part is a Latin preposition very similar in meaning and use to the English preposition "to" insofar as it "addresses" or "directs" something. The "hominem" part is a Latin noun meaning "man" usually in the sense of "human being" or "person" or "an instance of mankind." Another Latin word for "man" is "vir" and more directly means a male person much as "femina" means a female person. Got that? Ad hominem means "to the person" (directed at, addressed to the person) much like ad infinitum means "to infinity." Latin is complicated as Latin verbs have endings that indicate person and Latin nouns have endings that indicate grammatical case. The "em" part of "hominem" indicates the accusative (object) case because it is the object of the preposition "ad." So far the expression ad hominem does not imply any misdirection or failure of logic. There can be circumstances in which it is perfectly logical to consider some person. It does not directly indicate "instead" of something other than the person. The Latin word for "instead" is "pro." On a chart in this topic from general313 and correct enough in that context it shows that an ad hominem "attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument." However the correct full Latin for that would be "ad hominem pro disputationem." By itself "ad hominem" does not indicate anything was ignored. The "ad hominem fallacy" or the simple "ad hominem" in the context of fallacies is indeed a failure to properly address the topical argument. However this should not be extended to every context and use of the simple expression ad hominem. A special hazard of the internet is context. In casual discussion boards especially there can be assumptions about context that are not shared by all participants. A stunning example is how people extend the meaning of ad hominem in a special context to mean exactly that in every context. Is all that clear? Another source of confusion where the "justified" use of ad hominem is concerned involves the difference between facts and opinions. For best practice, opinions of adults should not be challenged at all except as they might be in disharmony with facts. Is all that clear? Perfectly clear. You wouldn't know it to look at the pitiful shell of a man I am now, but I took two years of Latin in a sorry Florida public school in 1981 and 1982. I wasn't an A student, but hey, I was a B student. More amazing about it is not what I've forgotten but what I still manage to remember.  |
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Dec 15, 2018 12:48:34 GMT
The attitude still appears on this discussion board that an ad hominem is a failure of logic or a failure of social propriety. Although children prefer not to be corrected in public and many adults prefer not to have to witness them being corrected in public, it does become necessary in the course of various human activities for one individual or group to correct another individual or group. There is no rule of logic or social propriety that forbids all correction ever. There are however indeed some specific instances where an ad hominem is a failure of logic. When the personal characteristics of one of the proponents of some idea are not relevant to the idea of the topic itself then depending on the those irrelevant characteristics to defeat the idea is not logical. The key is to be able to identify the relevance of critical comments. If I had a dollar for every time some poorly schooled child claimed to be more "logical" when he is not, I could retire comfortably, but please grow up anyway. Please understand that when I make an ad hominem comment and stand by it I am proud of it, as well I should be, having correctly ascertained the relevance of that information. So you are giving yourself an out Arlon, for your own illogical ad hominen attacks, because you think your logic is intellectually superior because you weren't poorly schooled.  When you project your knowledge base on what you only think you know and aren't self-aware enough to know that the logic you are operating from is just one of the many barriers and blocks you throw at your own pseudo-intellect, it ends up being rendered redundant most of the time.
Conceited and arrogant notions are still just that, conceited and arrogant notions, regardless of whatever confused logic it operates from. How is that for an ad hominen argument and attack, or perhaps I just got straight to the crux of your issue? |
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Post by koskiewicz on Dec 15, 2018 15:00:09 GMT
The abstruse arguments on this thread boggle the mind!
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