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Post by captainbryce on Dec 19, 2018 23:58:37 GMT
So this is to all of the theists on here (mostly Christians I presume) who think that they have some obligation to spread the gospel and convert atheists. And I think most Christians will agree that it is the duty of a Christian (per the bible instruction) to evangelize and convince others to become Christians.
That being the case, (and so that you don't end up wasting your time and indeed everyone else's) consider for a moment that you only really have two realistic options available to you to accomplish this goal of proselytizing:
Method 1: Argue in favor of "evidence" that supports the existence of God (and or the Supernatural).
...OR...
Method 2: Give a compelling reason for why we should have "faith" in god DESPITE the absence of evidence.
Those are the only two arguments you can make in order to convince anyone who is not already indoctrinated. I know this because as a former Christian, I can argue in favor of BOTH of them. The problem is, you can't use BOTH arguments at the same time! Well you can, but your case becomes much weaker if you do because you've damaged each of the stand alone points. Now, I don't care which method you use because, as a current atheist, I can see how both arguments on their own are flawed and ultimately futile.
However, trying to use BOTH methods simultaneously is called Kettle Logic. Suffice it to say, if you have evidence, then you don't need faith. Faith is the reason people give for believing in something when they don't have evidence. On the other hand, if you can demonstrate that it is reasonable for someone to take something on faith, then you don't need evidence. And arguing in favor of evidence after you've already appealed to faith pretty much invalidates your claim that faith has any value at all. Using both arguments at the same time makes it appear to the atheist that you have so little confidence in one method, and such an inability to make a convincing case using that argument that you have to resort to the desperation of using a completely different tactic when the first one fails. And when you've telegraphed to the atheist that you know your original method has failed, then you've already lost the entire argument before you've begun your second point. From that point on, you're completely wasting your time. It doesn't even matter what you say now you've because you've already shown that you no longer believe that you can support the reasonableness of your original argument.
So why am I telling you guys this? Because I actually enjoy the challenge of the debate (in the hopes that I can actually learn something new, or at the very least embarrass someone arguing an absurdity). But I've seen theists make this mistake in numerous forums recently, and I'm trying to prevent that. When you defeat yourself, you've wasted everyone's time (including mine). That's why I want to help you theists avoid this pitfall. So pick one! Make up your mind BEFORE having the debate on which argument you want to present, and then stick with it. Because once you switch to the other method, you've now flip-flopped and destroyed the point of your first one.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2018 0:02:30 GMT
So this is to all of the theists on here (mostly Christians I presume) who think that they have some obligation to spread the gospel and convert atheists. And I think most Christians will agree that it is the duty of a Christian (per the bible instruction) to evangelize and convince others to become Christians. That being the case, (and so that you don't end up wasting your time and indeed everyone else's) consider for a moment that you only really have two realistic options available to you to accomplish this goal of proselytizing: Method 1: Argue in favor of "evidence" that supports the existence of God (and or the Supernatural)....OR... Method 2: Give a compelling reason for why we should have "faith" in god DESPITE the absence of evidence.I find it very strange that believers suggest I should accept the existence of their deity on rather less evidence than I'd want to determine whether it's raining outside.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 20, 2018 0:12:48 GMT
No argument. Believe (or don't believe) anything you want. And enjoy your lives. 
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Post by kls on Dec 20, 2018 0:17:47 GMT
I don't need evidence. I don't have anything to prove. Believe or don't believe. It's up to me for myself and it's up to you for yourself.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Dec 20, 2018 0:39:25 GMT
Lol
Bryce telling people what to do again.
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Post by Cody™ on Dec 20, 2018 0:44:13 GMT
These days if I’m arguing with an atheist in person i first try to quickly figure out what their level of skepticism is that I’m dealing with. You get some that are sincere and open minded and willing to consider any decent argument presented. And then there are others whom are pretty much impervious to any evidence, I try not to waste too much time on them. You definitely fall into the latter category.
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Post by goz on Dec 20, 2018 1:38:03 GMT
These days if I’m arguing with an atheist in person i first try to quickly figure out what their level of skepticism is that I’m dealing with. You get some that are sincere and open minded and willing to consider any decent argument presented. And then there are others whom are pretty much impervious to any evidence, I try not to waste too much time on them. You definitely fall into the latter category. What is your decent argument and its evidence? You have so far failed to bring any of that to the table in any discussion on this Board. People are impervious due to the fact that it is not real evidence, just wishful thinking on your part. You mainly use the circular argument of evidence of God being in the Bible, or... because 'God'! God did it....God made it....God knows, God is all powerful etc has no real evidence. So basically you are doing exactly what Bruce claimed. Use of both argument when one fails. What else do you have?
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Post by drystyx on Dec 20, 2018 2:22:27 GMT
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Post by goz on Dec 20, 2018 2:52:43 GMT
Method 1: Argue in favour of "evidence" that supports the existence of God (and or the Supernatural). Whatja got? ...apart from fantasy stories. Easy for us atheists. We don't need faith because we don't need to make up shit.
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Post by Arlon10 on Dec 20, 2018 8:53:28 GMT
So this is to all of the theists on here (mostly Christians I presume) who think that they have some obligation to spread the gospel and convert atheists. And I think most Christians will agree that it is the duty of a Christian (per the bible instruction) to evangelize and convince others to become Christians. That being the case, (and so that you don't end up wasting your time and indeed everyone else's) consider for a moment that you only really have two realistic options available to you to accomplish this goal of proselytizing: Method 1: Argue in favor of "evidence" that supports the existence of God (and or the Supernatural)....OR... Method 2: Give a compelling reason for why we should have "faith" in god DESPITE the absence of evidence.Those are the only two arguments you can make in order to convince anyone who is not already indoctrinated. I know this because as a former Christian, I can argue in favor of BOTH of them. The problem is, you can't use BOTH arguments at the same time! Well you can, but your case becomes much weaker if you do because you've damaged each of the stand alone points. Now, I don't care which method you use because, as a current atheist, I can see how both arguments on their own are flawed and ultimately futile. However, trying to use BOTH methods simultaneously is called Kettle Logic. Suffice it to say, if you have evidence, then you don't need faith. Faith is the reason people give for believing in something when they don't have evidence. On the other hand, if you can demonstrate that it is reasonable for someone to take something on faith, then you don't need evidence. And arguing in favor of evidence after you've already appealed to faith pretty much invalidates your claim that faith has any value at all. Using both arguments at the same time makes it appear to the atheist that you have so little confidence in one method, and such an inability to make a convincing case using that argument that you have to resort to the desperation of using a completely different tactic when the first one fails. And when you've telegraphed to the atheist that you know your original method has failed, then you've already lost the entire argument before you've begun your second point. From that point on, you're completely wasting your time. It doesn't even matter what you say now you've because you've already shown that you no longer believe that you can support the reasonableness of your original argument. So why am I telling you guys this? Because I actually enjoy the challenge of the debate (in the hopes that I can actually learn something new, or at the very least embarrass someone arguing an absurdity). But I've seen theists make this mistake in numerous forums recently, and I'm trying to prevent that. When you defeat yourself, you've wasted everyone's time (including mine). That's why I want to help you theists avoid this pitfall. So pick one! Make up your mind BEFORE having the debate on which argument you want to present, and then stick with it. Because once you switch to the other method, you've now flip-flopped and destroyed the point of your first one. You might be making a bit of sense if you were dealing with only one person. I suspect you are not. I suspect you have encountered different people with different approaches to their religion, probably not even the same religion, and what they believe you especially need. Some people, probably very few, might have seen evidence themselves, others probably most of them, operate with far less evidence. Furthermore there is nothing "wrong" with a position between those "opposites." It would be "wrong" if anyone claimed you can get a million dollars simply by asking god for it and doing nothing else at all, and at the same time arguing for no evidence of god at all. Those two would indeed be incompatible. However there can be less strong evidence, in fact a complete array of levels of evidence. It is a good illustration of how the simplicity of your (singular) mind is so often the problem. Which brings us to the necessary ad hominem. You are especially simple and read at an especially low level of understanding. Yes, that is an ad hominem, but no, there is nothing illogical or irrelevant about it. In fact it is important to note here that it is definitely not directed at atheists in general or any system of disbelief or anything beyond your individual person. It is in fact directed at you (ad hominem = to the person). Not all atheists are as simple as you, nor do they all read at your level. Of course it might well be true that other atheists are like you or at least more like you than the average, but there are still those atheists who read and understand much more than you do and would not be perplexed by things you are. Therefore it is an ad hominem of which I am especially proud, it being fair to the "argument" and its variety of proponents. I have done the "argument" of atheism no disservice at all. Whether I have done you any disservice depends on whether you take the lesson or leave it.
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Post by captainbryce on Dec 20, 2018 12:38:34 GMT
These days if I’m arguing with an atheist in person i first try to quickly figure out what their level of skepticism is that I’m dealing with. You get some that are sincere and open minded and willing to consider any decent argument presented. And then there are others whom are pretty much impervious to any evidence, I try not to waste too much time on them. You definitely fall into the latter category. Yeah, I’m sure I do Cody. But tell me, is there a single atheist on this board that you can name who DOESN’T fall into that category? What atheist here do you consider sincere and open minded? And have ANY of them ever been convinced by your presentation of “evidence”?
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Post by captainbryce on Dec 20, 2018 12:40:47 GMT
No argument. Believe (or don't believe) anything you want. And enjoy your lives.  Exactly. Contrary to popular belief, it's not our job to convince anyone. According to the bible, it is!
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Post by Vegas on Dec 20, 2018 12:54:05 GMT
The concept that you can't have any evidence to support your faith is absolutely retarded.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 20, 2018 14:54:20 GMT
Exactly. Contrary to popular belief, it's not our job to convince anyone. According to the bible, it is! 1) No, it isn't. 2) You don't believe in the Bible, so why would you get your panties in a wad over someone not following the Bible?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Dec 20, 2018 15:32:29 GMT
Exactly. Contrary to popular belief, it's not our job to convince anyone. According to the bible, it is! Lol
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Post by Vegas on Dec 20, 2018 15:48:28 GMT
According to the bible, it is! 1) No, it isn't. 2) You don't believe in the Bible, so why would you get your panties in a wad over someone not following the Bible? Bryce... You know you've crossed a threshold when Erjen is making you look stupid. ERJEN!! Oops.Sorry, Erjen. 
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Post by captainbryce on Dec 20, 2018 15:59:53 GMT
2) You don't believe in the Bible, so why would you get your panties in a wad over someone not following the Bible? ^ Uh...because I'm obviously NOT (according to this very logic that you are using).
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Post by captainbryce on Dec 20, 2018 16:05:15 GMT
Exactly. Contrary to popular belief, it's not our job to convince anyone. According to the bible, it is! onethreetwo By the way, so far I got a " No, it isn't" and an " Lol" from two people who claim to be Christians, but no actual refutations beyond that. But I'd be happy to elaborate on my position if you actually decide to re-engage in this, debate this point, or imply that I am somehow mistaken. 
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Dec 20, 2018 16:13:10 GMT
According to the bible, it is! onethreetwo By the way, so far I got a " No, it isn't" and an " Lol" from two people who claim to be Christians, but no actual refutations beyond that. But I'd be happy to elaborate on my position if you actually decide to re-engage in this, debate this point, or imply that I am somehow mistaken.  Lol at you telling Christians that they are mandated to waste their time with you.
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Post by gadreel on Dec 20, 2018 17:23:02 GMT
I stopped reading at the point when you said I have a duty to convert people, I personally would be offended if someone changed their religious beliefs based on something I said as opposed to doing their own research, religion is far too personal to let someone else dictate it to you.
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