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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 1, 2019 6:54:51 GMT
I can't help but think, in spite what what character growth Xander does have throughout the series, finding a job in construction that he can excel at, and the whole concept of him being the group's "heart" and "seeing" what others don't; there comes a point where he should have done more to prepare himself for his "other job" of helping Buffy and the others fight evil, if was truly going to commit to the cause. That may arguably negate his "everyman" quality, but that's invariably the point; your regular, run of the mill, average Joe isn't going to be much help in a lot of these situations, which is why someone like Buffy or like Angel or Gunn or Willow, etc. are necessary; otherwise it's not going to be much of a threat if just anyone could hold their own against it. They regularly comment on the fact that Xander stands to potentially be killed, but not only that, he's a potential liability to get others killed.
He's basically Bruce Wayne without the money or the training; people always wonder how Batman can run around with virtual demi-gods in the Justice League when he's an otherwise ordinary human, but at least he's honed himself to as near the utmost physical and mental potential a human can have, which gives him a fighting chance. Xander just regularly gets lucky. Even Wesley was ultimately shown, in spite of his clumsiness, to have valuable fighting skills that presumably came from extensive practice; namely his hand eye coordination. I think "The Ring" may be the first indication of this, when he uses his crossbow to get the drop on the bookie who pulled on a gun on him, to expertly pin the other man's hand to the wall. He's later shown on several occasions to be highly adept at darts and later still favors handguns, presumably being a crack marksman. They also show him becoming less of clutz, even being able to pull off a move out of Batman's playbook, when they take the tour of Wolfram and Hart and his grapples his way into the bowels of the building - something which, when Angel tried doing that with Kate in season 1, failed miserably when the beam he grappled to broke. Even Giles was made less physically inept and more coordinated within the first couple of seasons; not that he never got knocked out, but he was pretty bad ass when the need arose.
I've heard anecdotally that Xander's character stopped getting the meatier stories and development the last few years of the show, because of some of the behind the scenes issues that began to come up with Nicky Brendon; so that might be part of it. But if you're going to intentionally go up against vampires or other creatures that are bound to have greater strength than you, never mind the agility and coordination, go to the gym and build some muscle mass; or take some martial arts classes. If nothing else, Xander should have been a veritable junior Watcher by like, season 5, just by virtue of all the research he'd helped with over the years. How many times can you read those books before a fair portion of that information starts to sink in and the foundation for a functional education in demons and the occult; especially if you figure when the threat is unknown, a lot of those books probably got revisted more than once? It's gotta be like effectively taking the Watcher's academy extension course.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 3, 2019 0:46:09 GMT
The more often I rewatch Buffy, the more resolved I am that it was a mistake killing Tara; and the reason I bring that up in a thread about Xander's character development, is that I've come to the conclusion that he's the one who should have died and sent Willow off the deep end, then bring Nicky Brendon back in season 7 as the First. Well, maybe on that last part; hard to say if he had the chops to make the First seem threatening enough, but then again, how threatening was the First in the first place?
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Post by CynicalDreamer2 on Jan 4, 2019 7:40:10 GMT
I can't help but think, in spite what what character growth Xander does have throughout the series, finding a job in construction that he can excel at, and the whole concept of him being the group's "heart" and "seeing" what others don't; there comes a point where he should have done more to prepare himself for his "other job" of helping Buffy and the others fight evil, if was truly going to commit to the cause. That may arguably negate his "everyman" quality, but that's invariably the point; your regular, run of the mill, average Joe isn't going to be much help in a lot of these situations, which is why someone like Buffy or like Angel or Gunn or Willow, etc. are necessary; otherwise it's not going to be much of a threat if just anyone could hold their own against it. They regularly comment on the fact that Xander stands to potentially be killed, but not only that, he's a potential liability to get others killed. He's basically Bruce Wayne without the money or the training; people always wonder how Batman can run around with virtual demi-gods in the Justice League when he's an otherwise ordinary human, but at least he's honed himself to as near the utmost physical and mental potential a human can have, which gives him a fighting chance. Xander just regularly gets lucky. Even Wesley was ultimately shown, in spite of his clumsiness, to have valuable fighting skills that presumably came from extensive practice; namely his hand eye coordination. I think "The Ring" may be the first indication of this, when he uses his crossbow to get the drop on the bookie who pulled on a gun on him, to expertly pin the other man's hand to the wall. He's later shown on several occasions to be highly adept at darts and later still favors handguns, presumably being a crack marksman. They also show him becoming less of clutz, even being able to pull off a move out of Batman's playbook, when they take the tour of Wolfram and Hart and his grapples his way into the bowels of the building - something which, when Angel tried doing that with Kate in season 1, failed miserably when the beam he grappled to broke. Even Giles was made less physically inept and more coordinated within the first couple of seasons; not that he never got knocked out, but he was pretty bad ass when the need arose. I've heard anecdotally that Xander's character stopped getting the meatier stories and development the last few years of the show, because of some of the behind the scenes issues that began to come up with Nicky Brendon; so that might be part of it. But if you're going to intentionally go up against vampires or other creatures that are bound to have greater strength than you, never mind the agility and coordination, go to the gym and build some muscle mass; or take some martial arts classes. If nothing else, Xander should have been a veritable junior Watcher by like, season 5, just by virtue of all the research he'd helped with over the years. How many times can you read those books before a fair portion of that information starts to sink in and the foundation for a functional education in demons and the occult; especially if you figure when the threat is unknown, a lot of those books probably got revisted more than once? It's gotta be like effectively taking the Watcher's academy extension course. I’m starting the rewatch and EVERYONE aside from Xander was prepared in both Buffy and Angel. It’s a point that sticks in my craw but he’s one of my least favorite characters so I might be biased.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jan 8, 2019 14:42:06 GMT
I'd say Xander does improve. With the exception of his slap fight against Harmony, Xander does hold his own fairly well against vampires and demons. And he's not knocked out anywhere near as much as Giles.
Unlike Xander, the other human fighters we meet have been training since they were children. It stands to reason they'd be better.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 8, 2019 15:13:53 GMT
I'd say Xander does improve. With the exception of his slap fight against Harmony, Xander does hold his own fairly well against vampires and demons. And he's not knocked out anywhere near as much as Giles. Unlike Xander, the other human fighters we meet have been training since they were children. It stands to reason they'd be better. I mean, he was 15-16 when we first meet him and he begins fighting evil alongside Buffy; so arguably he's right there in the same boat as others who appear to posses more proficiency in fighting. In season 5 they even make fun of this with him complaining about being everyone's "butt monkey," after Dracula made him his bitch; and there's a stark contrast in who Xander is and who he could be when he gets split into two personas. Suave Xander almost seemed to be better than whole Xander. But more importantly, take Wesley - consider him and Xander getting in a fight during season 3 of Buffy, compared to if they fought during Angel season 4/Buffy season 7; who would win? During Wesley's earliest appearances it probably would have been a draw, with Xander maybe having a slight edge, if he didn't slip on a banana peel or something. But Angel season 4 Wesley would arguably kick Buffy season 7 Xander's butt. Hell, it's debatable whether Season 7 Xander would fair any better with season 3 Wesley; which goes to show the lack of real growth.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jan 8, 2019 17:30:12 GMT
I disagree he's in the same boat. Gunn's a good example. He was living in the streets fighting vampires for survival on a daily basis since he was 12. That's a far cry from Xander's well off lifestyle until he was 15. So while the age wasn't too far off, real world experience was radically different. Similar to how in season 5, Buffy makes a good point that Xander has more field time than some of the watchers who've been studying most of their lives.
Wesley's experience is also radically different. He had years of training from childhood and like Gunn had to learn to rely on his own skills as a rogue demon hunter and later being ousted from the group. Though even as late as season 3, we see Wesley being a little clumsy, and in season 2 he still threw out his back.
That's actually not debatable at all. There's no doubt season 4 Wesley could easily best season 7 Xander. However, Season 7 Xander handled himself against vampires and bringers fairly well while season 3 Wesley would shake and cry out in terror and didn't even get in a single hit at the battle during graduation.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 8, 2019 20:59:12 GMT
I disagree he's in the same boat. Gunn's a good example. He was living in the streets fighting vampires for survival on a daily basis since he was 12. That's a far cry from Xander's well off lifestyle until he was 15. So while the age wasn't too far off, real world experience was radically different. Similar to how in season 5, Buffy makes a good point that Xander has more field time than some of the watchers who've been studying most of their lives. The only real difference, besides a couple of extra years on Gunn's part, is that Xander chose to be in the thick of things and Gunn's time spent fighting was born of necessity. Xander was putting himself into dangerous circumstances that without further development of some type of defensive ability only elevated the risk of him or someone else either getting hurt or outright killed. At best he was incredibly lucky, and at worst he was profoundly reckless for still insisting to help when what help he could practically offer wasn't all that helpful. That he went so long with his worst injury being the occasional cast on his arm is lucky; and his loss of an eye could probably be said to be inevitable. How many baddies did he actually even manage to take out on his own, that were intentional? I don't think his "batting average" was really all that high. I'm not talking about not dying or getting the odd punch in, but rather honest to goodness knocked them out or straight-up demon/vamp kill. You say how he went up against the Bringers, but he didn't really fair all that well against them. Xander against a vamp was easily 50/50. Giles may not have been much better, but he at least had his extensive knowledge and understanding of the demon world. As I said in my original post, you'd think with as often as Xander helped research, that something would have seeped in and he'd occasionally be an asset in that regard, but it never happened. The most he had to offer was stopping the bomb going off in the school basement in, "The Zeppo" and coming up with the plan to kill the Judge; and once again, a lot of that came down to luck. He was in the right place at the right time to stop the bomb; and it was only because he decided to dress as a soldier one time for Halloween that he gained the military knowledge that the show only pulled out when it was convenient. He'd regularly say that the knowledge wasn't what it used to be in on episode, then later when the writers needed Xander to inexplicably know or be able to do something that would normally be outside his wheelhouse, they'd whip that out again rather than giving him a permanent skills set. Which is it, either Watchers spend most of their life studying or they develop skills that give them a leg up when introduced to the field? Xander did have more time in the field by season 7 than Wesley did during the same period of time (Angel season 4); and yet Wesley had widely surpassed Xander in his ability to hold his own in a fight. I mean, Wesley was able to assemble his own team at one point after betraying Angel, kept a woman prisoner to help him find Angel in the ocean, and James Bond his way into the bowels of Wolfram and Hart to find Lilah's contract. That's real development over a fairly short time; shorter than Xander's when you consider that he wasn't that far off from where he started on Buffy when he made his first appearance in season 1 of Angel. He may have been a "rogue demon hunter," but he wasn't a very good one. He wasn't even chasing the right demon when he ran into Angel and Cordelia. By all appearances his only developed skill at that point as riding a motorcycle. When Wesley first arrived in Sunnydale, his background was decidedly softer than Xander's; while what field time he had was "under controlled circumstances." Yet in less time than Xander had been in the field, and getting into the thick of things at a much later age, Wesley exceeds Xander's growth by a fair measure. And season 7 didn't handle himself all that well against the Bringers, and flailed to fight off most vampires. In season 5, he and Giles combined barely managed to keep a vampire from killing them while Willow staked it from behind. Meanwhile, Wesley is facing off multi-headed sewer demons with only Gunn at his side; and the two of them, terrified though they were, killed it with their own two hands. Even Cordelia bothered to learn how to fight, and her background was softer than Xander's; and this before becoming part demon and hijacked by a supposedly "higher" power.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jan 9, 2019 15:28:22 GMT
Those extra years add up to a lot. By the time we meet Gunn, he's been fighting vampires for nine years--that's more than Xander when the show ends. And as for being reckless, well that was Gunn too. Angel would tell him that. Wes would tell him. Heck, his own sister would tell him that.
Xander took out many baddies that were intentional. He dusted several vamps, he stabbed Doc, he took out the zombies in The Zeppo, Bringers, and various other demons.
Of course he was because he positioned himself. He tracked them down. He followed them. He fought them.
It's both. Someone can study martial arts for years, but if they don't actually use them in combat scenarios, they don't have any real field experience. After years of studying at the Academy and being deemed worthy of being both Buffy and Faith's watcher, Wesley had only faced two vampires (under controlled circumstances). So he'd studied but didn't have actual combat experience. It wasn't until he struck out as a rogue demon hunter and joined Angel that he really transformed his studying and training into actual field experience. Wesley still had years ahead of Xander.
I'd say that's as much a reflection on Giles. Plus, Buffy herself has had to be saved. Hardly an indictment.
True, though we see her experience as a cheerleader gave her a leg up on that.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 9, 2019 16:28:22 GMT
Those extra years add up to a lot. By the time we meet Gunn, he's been fighting vampires for nine years--that's more than Xander when the show ends. And as for being reckless, well that was Gunn too. Angel would tell him that. Wes would tell him. Heck, his own sister would tell him that. Xander took out many baddies that were intentional. He dusted several vamps, he stabbed Doc, he took out the zombies in The Zeppo, Bringers, and various other demons. What Bringers did he take out exactly? Are you talking about "Never Leave Me"? Because sneaking up on one and them out from behind, after first getting knocked out seconds into the start of the attack hardly seems to put him on par with virtually anyone else among the Scoobies or the Fang Gang in terms of fighting prowess. Dawn held her own against the Bringers better than Xander did initially; and it was only because Dawn was still managing to keep the one at bay that Xander was able to get an upper hand (you know, after he regained consciousness) And the nature of recklessness between Xander and Gunn are different. In Gunn's case, he actually possessed the ability to fight and defend himself and others, but his recklessness is that too often he wouldn't think through his actions before taking them; and assumed that his fighting ability alone would be enough without a plan, or simply overestimate how much of the burden he could take on alone. But even then, he knew well enough that eventually his luck would probably run out and one of those baddies would eventually get the better of him; which is why he was willing to leverage his own life in exchange for a tricked out truck, because he didn't think he'd live much longer or develop the types of meaningful relationships he would, that such a deal would have an negative consequences for him. On the flip side of that, Xander wanted to be part of the fight against evil, but had no interest in developing anything that would make him a benefit to have around in that fight; which is the point I'm trying to make. He didn't need to be a fighter to be an asset, he could have cultivated his knowledge of the dangers they were facing and served in a similar role as Giles or found other ways to be of aid, but he didn't. He didn't weight train or study a martial or mystical art, and as many of the books as he read, he never seemed to retain any significant amount of the knowledge that he read. He didn't try to train with Buffy. Dawn not only wanted to train with her, but started becoming book smart too. This in comparison with Gunn, who starts off with the physical skill and knowing that he needed that ability in order to survive in the sort of fight he was engaged in, in the beginning. And when they joined Wolfram and Hart, those making the pitch knew their way in with him was by appealing to his desire to have something to offer; and they achieved that by giving him the ability to become a top notch lawyer. His desperation to retain that knowledge, entirely so that he can be a productive member of the team and have something to offer in this new setting; which is stark contrast to Xander who insists on being on the team without ever trying to find a suitable niche. Sure, he's "the heart" of the group, but that doesn't mean much in a fight where if you're not helping, you're a hindrance; he either stands to potentially get himself hurt or killed, or someone else who tries to protect him instead of protecting themselves (or offensively fighting), which is what makes him a liability. What I meant by that is circumstances contrived him to learn about the zombies and their plans, when conventionally, under any other circumstances he'd have been with Buffy and the others, researching and fighting; and the one time they decide to bench him for his own good happens to be the one time he could do good elsewhere. And that in itself is all fine and well; it's convenient to the plot, but maybe it's also destiny. My real point is that he didn't actually apply any real skill or know-how; he just got lucky that Jack didn't call his bluff in the basement, or die at any point in between, which was a distinct possibility by virtue of his complete lack of ability to actually proactively defend himself in dangerous situations. Hell, that's entire concept behind "The Zeppo" and the reason he benched in the first place, that he has no defensive or offensive skills to make him an asset in a fight; and if he's not going to be a significant asset in a fight, then what is the point in him being there?
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jan 9, 2019 17:51:09 GMT
Buffy's killed plenty of enemies from behind. Some even after she's been temporarily incapacitated. That's not a condemnation.
Except he did. Through out the show, we see Xander's usefulness to the group. He saved Buffy with CPR. He fought off a vampire with a broken arm. He freed Giles. He's the one who led the students in graduation. His Super Buffy idea led them to merging to defeat Adam. He clobbered Glory with a wrecking ball. He didn't need to be an expert fighter or a great demonologist or focus on any one particular area to prove his worth.
Actually, the reason behind "The Zeppo" was the comparison to Zeppo Marx, who most people overlooked since he often played the straight man to the more zany Marx brothers but in fact played a vital role in their rise and who even Groucho himself said had incredible comedic ability. The point of the episode was to show how Xander is also overlooked/underrated yet plays an integral role in the Scoobies and in the saving of the world. He's the Zeppo only by nature of being compared to a slayer, witch, werewolf, vampire, and watcher, when in fact he's gone above and beyond the average person.
All storytelling is contrivance.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 9, 2019 19:49:21 GMT
Buffy's killed plenty of enemies from behind. Some even after she's been temporarily incapacitated. That's not a condemnation. No, but it's also besides the point. The point is that is takes no real skill or training or competence; and says nothing about being able to hold his own in a fight. If Buffy had to rely on someone else always distracting her opponent in order to get the upper hand, she'd be a pretty pathetic hero. There again, if giving CPR is the best you can bring to the cause, what are you doing there? Don't get me wrong, that was something of consequence in the grand scheme of things; he saved Buffy's life, but it's also arguably the most valuable contribution he made in the entire series; and it happened in season 1. Yes, he freed Giles, while Buffy distracted the larger threats. The fact that he escaped the initial attack where Giles was kidnapped in season 3 with only a broken arm goes to show how much his character's survival depended on dumb luck or other characters suffering from momentary stupidity; because by all rights he should have been killed. It always seems glaringly absurd that the vampires attack and don't kill him. It's hard to give him too much credit for Super-Buffy when it was said entirely as a joke; and it was only through combination with Giles' actual practical knowledge of the joining spell that any sort of plan could be put into use. The fact that Buffy, Willow and Giles each had aspects to contribute to a solution with Adam, while lacking crucial elements that one of the others had; the conclusion to use the joining spell is hardly much of a leap, especially since Giles was already familiar with it. And with that pivotal act, the battle was ended and the day was saved.... And that in itself is all fine and well; it's convenient to the plot, but maybe it's also destiny. My real point is that he didn't actually apply any real skill or know-how; he just got lucky that Jack didn't call his bluff in the basement, or die at any point in between, which was a distinct possibility by virtue of his complete lack of ability to actually proactively defend himself in dangerous situations.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jan 9, 2019 20:23:15 GMT
It also says nothing about being an indictment of his growth. Buffy herself has relied on distractions. As did Faith, Angel, Spike, Gunn, and everyone else on the show.
Gotta disagree there, as the other examples showed. CPR was not all he brought, simply the first big sign that Xander didn't need to become a masterclass expert to be useful and help save the world all throughout the show. His yellow crayon speech coming in right in the finale of season 6.
And while he (Xander with a broken arm) beat up a vampire.
By all rights, everyone should've been killed in that attack. Xander fought off a vampire one-handed. Don't try and sell that as dumb luck.
And just what had Willow, Giles, Spike, or even Buffy done up until that act that saved the day?
Usefulness is not measured by accomplishing something completely alone. If that were the case, none of the scoobies were useful as they all relied on someone else at many points in the show.
Except he did. He figured out what their plans were, tracked them, and fought them, even killing two of them. If luck is a condemnation, Buffy was lucky Kendra brought her a magic sword. Willow was lucky some unseen force possessed her. Giles was lucky nobody who knocked him out ever bothered to finish the job.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 9, 2019 20:44:58 GMT
It also says nothing about being an indictment of his growth. Buffy herself has relied on distractions. As did Faith, Angel, Spike, Gunn, and everyone else on the show. And if you bothered to read the rest of that initial remark about the incident with the Bringers, you would know that, that specific sentence was not the so-called indictment, but rather the fact that when the fighting started and he came face to face with a Bringer he was one of the first taken out without so much as a fight; second to only Anya. Dawn actually managed to go toe to toe with one, while Xander was out for most of the fight. There's no rebuke over him using the opportunity of the Bringer being distracted to his advantage; and it's asinine for you to try to suggest that I'm making that argument when I didn't The key distinction here is the fact that everyone else, besides Xander, actually took those times when fortune was kind and allowed them to live or benefit from some outcome of happenstance beyond their control and then applied skill or knowledge or some combination of the two that they had bothered to hone and develop. Him being able to hatch a plan or lead the likes of his classmates in battle during graduation were things that he was allowed to do when it was convenient to the plot; and the rest of the time forgotten about. The prime example being his so-called "military training" derived from his one night as a solider on Halloween in season 2; one episode he says it's pretty much gone, the next it's the central point enable an entire plot. He's basically Goofy, walking ass-backwards to life's solutions. Meanwhile Gunn, Wesley, Cordelia, Faith, Willow, Fred all have discernable, meaningful growth over the course their respective stories; and that growth predominantly makes it less absurd that they're in this fight.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jan 9, 2019 21:07:16 GMT
Which was Giles' MO to the extent it's lampshaded by various characters, including himself. Again, not a condemnation.
Like Olaf's hammer suddenly being a troll god's hammer. Willow being possessed. Buffy, Spike, and Angel's varying super strength. Dawn being made from Buffy. It's all convenience.
Actually, one episode, he says he remembers everything:
"Well, I still remember all of it. I know procedure, ordnance, access codes, everything. I know the whole layout for this base, and I'm pretty sure I can put together an M-16 in 57 seconds."
Xander's constant usefulness makes it not at all absurd he's in this fight. He proved himself over the course of the show to have a place in the group. Without needing a special power, yet at the same time, he did develop as a better fighter. On par with the other normal humans who had years of experience ahead of him? Certainly not. But certainly far above his first accidental staking of a vampire.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 11, 2019 1:38:10 GMT
Re-watching "The Gift," I see Xander's bit with the wrecking ball occurs later in the battle and has arguably less significance to the battle than even I thought. I thought it was one of the early blows to Glory, but it comes well after Willow sucks Glory's brain, after Robo-Buffy has exposed her to the dygon sphere and fought her, and after several minutes of being knocked around by the real Buffy using the troll hammer and falling from halfway up the tower. It slows Glory down for like a second before Buffy promptly goes back to pummeling her with the hammer. So Xander's major contribution to this fight amounts to a pretty big fat zilch when weighed against the overall effect, compounded by the fact that while he's dicking around with a wrecking ball, waiting for an opportunity that might not come (what was he going to do if Glory hadn't fallen?); leaving Giles, Anya and Spike to do the heavy lifting against Glory's minions, as Willow recovers and takes care of Tara.
Could he have been much more help in the hand to hand fighting? Xander being Xander, probably not, though having an extra hand in lieu of one probably would have been a greater help than the effect the wrecking ball had.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jan 11, 2019 14:04:14 GMT
Completely disagree. That was the opening Buffy needed to retrieve Olaf's hammer, which was the only melee weapon doing any actual damage to Glory. Remember, she'd lost the hammer. Buffy on her own couldn't hurt Glory. The only reason Buffy was able to go back to pummeling Glory with the hammer was because of Xander. Xander provided the opportunity for Glory to actually be beaten. It's a huge significance. Without that hammer, Buffy can't beat Glory. Xander's contribution was a huge factor in the fight.
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