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Post by Isapop on Jan 1, 2019 19:35:45 GMT
(And not too hard to guess what it's analogous to)
Someone who is putatively a great moral authority for the ages issues the following statement: "I have an important command for all pedophiles among you, so listen carefully. Pedophiles, remember to always be kind and considerate to all the children you have sex with."
What, if any, effect should such a pronouncement have on his status as a great moral authority? |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 1, 2019 20:03:53 GMT
What the analogy in reference to?
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Post by gameboy on Jan 2, 2019 1:52:16 GMT
Actually I don't think anyone here has a clue. It's not as self evident as you seem to think.
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Post by Vegas on Jan 2, 2019 2:04:27 GMT
Actually I don't think anyone here has a clue. It's not as self evident as you seem to think. Whatever it is... it's gonna wind up being "GOD BAD!!! GOD BAD!! GRRR!!"   |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 2, 2019 2:27:19 GMT
Actually I don't think anyone here has a clue. It's not as self evident as you seem to think. Whatever it is... it's gonna wind up being "GOD BAD!!! GOD BAD!! GRRR!!" I figured it out based on the various cues. It's slavery...Errr...I think. Maybe we'll be lucky and the thread ends here.  |
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Post by Vegas on Jan 2, 2019 4:19:11 GMT
Whatever it is... it's gonna wind up being "GOD BAD!!! GOD BAD!! GRRR!!" I figured it out based on the various cues. It's slavery...Errr...I think. Maybe we'll be lucky and the thread ends here. That was my guess, too... I just didn't want to actually start the conversation. |
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Post by phludowin on Jan 2, 2019 9:56:25 GMT
Is it in a society where pedophilia is considered ok? And where abused children are happy?
In such a society, the person might be considered a moral authority.
In a society where pedophilia is not ok, a moral authority would not condone pedophilia.
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Post by Isapop on Jan 2, 2019 17:15:12 GMT
Whatever it is... it's gonna wind up being "GOD BAD!!! GOD BAD!! GRRR!!" I figured it out based on the various cues. It's slavery...Errr...I think. Maybe we'll be lucky and the thread ends here. See, that wasn't hard at all; you got it on your first try. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 2, 2019 17:18:14 GMT
I figured it out based on the various cues. It's slavery...Errr...I think. Maybe we'll be lucky and the thread ends here. See, that wasn't hard at all; you got it on your first try. well I still can’t make much sense of the analogy but it’s your thread so run it as you will. |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 2, 2019 17:22:38 GMT
I figured it out based on the various cues. It's slavery...Errr...I think. Maybe we'll be lucky and the thread ends here. That was my guess, too... I just didn't want to actually start the conversation. And you're both right. This perennial subject has again turned up in captainbryce 's thread, "Black Christians". And so I thought this metaphor had some utility. If you accept that the practice of sex with children is wrong, then a pedophile's defense that he doesn't beat the children and that he keeps them warm and well fed isn't going to lead you to tell him, "Well in that case it's OK then".
So you might expect someone with a claim to high and enduring moral authority to simply and clearly condemn the practice. If all he can manage to do is announce some regulations on it to curb any added cruelties, then the transcendent superiority of his own moral code is rightly placed in doubt.
Except for those who'd like to be contrary for it's own sake, nearly everyone would agree with the above. But apply this reasoning to slavery and the Bible, and now you'll have plenty of people formulating excuses for God's lack of moral leadership here.
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Post by Vegas on Jan 2, 2019 17:32:51 GMT
That was my guess, too... I just didn't want to actually start the conversation. And you're both right. This perennial subject has again turned up in captainbryce 's thread, "Black Christians". And so I thought this metaphor had some utility. If you accept that the practice of sex with children is wrong, then a pedophile's defense that he doesn't beat the children and that he keeps them warm and well fed isn't going to lead you to tell him, "Well in that case it's OK then".
So you might expect someone with a claim to high and enduring moral authority to simply and clearly condemn the practice. If all he can manage to do is announce some regulations on it to curb any added cruelties, then the transcendent superiority of his own moral code is rightly placed in doubt.
Except for those who'd like to be contrary for it's own sake, nearly everyone would agree with the above. But apply this reasoning to slavery and the Bible, and now you'll have plenty of people formulating excuses for God's lack of moral leadership here.
It still kinda fails as an analogy... There are no degrees of fucking children... It's wrong from the get-go. It's like saying to be cordial to the person that you are murdering: There is no "good" version of murder. Slavery on the other hand?... While not a fan of the concept.. There are degrees to what one could consider to be a viable form of "employment" or "earning a living"... if done "right". Granted, I think that's one big-assed "if".  |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 2, 2019 17:41:45 GMT
It fails too because it is based on a current moral standard.which slavery belongs to as opposed to a moral standard that concerned itself with treatment.
This has been explained numerous times and yet certain people insist paradoxically that the Bible cannot serve as their moral guide while at the same time making layer moral standard retroactively obligatory.
We get it. Slavery sucked and it was way better to not be one and God should have condemned when he had the chance since it makes white dudes so angry in the 21st century.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2019 17:56:34 GMT
It still kinda fails as an analogy... There are no degrees of fucking children... It's wrong from the get-go. It's like saying to be cordial to the person that you are murdering: There is no "good" version of murder. Slavery on the other hand?... While not a fan of the concept.. There are degrees to what one could consider to be a viable form of "employment" or "earning a living"... if done "right". No there aren't. Slavery isn't about "employment" or "earning a living". Slavery is the owning of another person as property. There are no versions of that which count as good. |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 2, 2019 18:15:42 GMT
It fails too because it is based on a current moral standard.which slavery belongs to as opposed to a moral standard that concerned itself with treatment. You miss the point. A moral standard that only concerns itself with treatment of slaves rather than condemning the very institution is evidence of a moral standard that is lacking. |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 2, 2019 19:07:39 GMT
This has been explained numerous times and yet certain people insist paradoxically that the Bible cannot serve as their moral guide while at the same time making layer moral standard retroactively obligatory. We get it. Slavery sucked and it was way better to not be one and God should have condemned when he had the chance since it makes white dudes so angry in the 21st century. If God's acceptance of slavery should be discounted because it comes from an earlier era, then Bible apologists can't credibly argue that God's other moral standards (for examples divorce, homosexuality) must be fully counted and applied for the present era. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 2, 2019 19:30:18 GMT
It still kinda fails as an analogy... There are no degrees of fucking children... It's wrong from the get-go. It's like saying to be cordial to the person that you are murdering: There is no "good" version of murder. Slavery on the other hand?... While not a fan of the concept.. There are degrees to what one could consider to be a viable form of "employment" or "earning a living"... if done "right". No there aren't. Slavery isn't about "employment" or "earning a living". Slavery is the owning of another person as property. There are no versions of that which count as good. Although true that being a slavery would suck for the most part, something Scripture makes pretty clear, it is beyond stupid to think that sucky situation would somehow equate to be raped as a child. But everyone has different values. I mean circumcision has got to be worse than pedophilia too as is pork bans based on this scale. |
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Post by Vegas on Jan 2, 2019 19:59:59 GMT
No there aren't. Slavery isn't about "employment" or "earning a living". Slavery is the owning of another person as property. There are no versions of that which count as good. Look.. I don't have that much of a stake in this argument.. Like I said: I don't like the concept of slavery.... That being said... I don't speak for every version of slavery... but, an emotional "Man can not own man" plea... is only an emotional plea (a good and noble one, mind you) but... The world is the world and maybe some people's only hope of survival was being a slave for someone else... It's sad, but probably true. THAT being said, the history of Man is far too long and varied to ever say that there was never a "good" version of this sad situation. I'd love to argue this point all day... but, I gotta go bust my ass to make some other person that I work for more money. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2019 21:02:44 GMT
No there aren't. Slavery isn't about "employment" or "earning a living". Slavery is the owning of another person as property. There are no versions of that which count as good. Although true that being a slavery would suck for the most part, something Scripture makes pretty clear, it is beyond stupid to think that sucky situation would somehow equate to be raped as a child. Then how lucky we are that nobody has made an argument that the two are as bad as one another. I mean, it's not like making an analogy of two things, in order to make the point that 'lessening' a bad act isn't a morally good thing to do if it endorses the continuation of the act, means that one is arguing that two things are of equal badness. Most people generally understand this. |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 2, 2019 21:09:13 GMT
Although true that being a slavery would suck for the most part, something Scripture makes pretty clear, it is beyond stupid to think that sucky situation would somehow equate to be raped as a child. Then how lucky we are that nobody has made an argument that the two are as bad as one another. I mean, it's not like making an analogy of two things, in order to make the point that 'lessening' a bad act isn't a morally good thing to do if it endorses the continuation of the act, means that one is arguing that two things are of equal badness. Most people generally understand this. Thank you. (I was hoping that somebody besides myself would point that out.) His statement proves either that he doesn't understand how analogies work, or that he is hoping to appeal to any others on this board who don't understand how analogies work.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2019 21:19:06 GMT
Then how lucky we are that nobody has made an argument that the two are as bad as one another. I mean, it's not like making an analogy of two things, in order to make the point that 'lessening' a bad act isn't a morally good thing to do if it endorses the continuation of the act, means that one is arguing that two things are of equal badness. Most people generally understand this. Thank you. (I was hoping that somebody besides myself would point that out.) His statement proves either that he doesn't understand how analogies work, or that he is hoping to appeal to any others on this board who don't understand how analogies work.
"You know when you murder somebody you're depriving the world of them. Like how destroying a work of art deprives the world of the art." "You think destroying art is as bad as murder!!!! YOU MONSTER!!!11!!1!" "You know, jesus is a bit like santa. Both offer you a reward if you follow a code of behaviour, or a punishment if you don't. There's no evidence of either's actually existing, people or children just take it on faith because their parents tell them it's true." "jesus doesn't wear a red coat, so you are totally wrong in thinking they are the same!!!!!!" Yeah, that's really not how analogies work. Hard to convince some people, though. |
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