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Post by justanaveragejoe on Jan 5, 2019 21:05:06 GMT
But isn't Superman a Kryptonian child-killer? Killing hundreds and thousands of unborn Kryptonians in Man of Steel?
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 5, 2019 21:20:50 GMT
No, because that was an alternate reality timeline. 2015 took the almanac and gave it to 1955 Biff, which created the alternate reality timeline. Marty restored the real timeline. In Infinity War, the snap isn't an alternate reality timeline. It's the real timeline. So any children conceived and born after the snap are part of the real timeline. Lol so alternate realities have less rights to exist than the ones you call the real timelines??? Who made you God to determine which timeline is "real"? A timeline is the real timeline if it occurs naturally. An alternate reality timeline is a timeline that is created when someone goes back to the past and alters the past. For example, Marty created an alternate reality timeline when he traveled back to 1955 and pushed George out of the way of being hit by Lorraine's dad's car. That created an alternate reality timeline in which George and Lorraine don't fall in love and get married and Marty and his siblings are never born. Marty manages to restore the real timeline by getting George and Lorraine together. 2015 Biff also created an alternate reality timeline when he traveled back to 1955 and gave 1955 Biff the almanac. Marty again restored the real timeline by getting back the almanac from 1955 Biff and burning the almanac. Some changes to the timeline are singular changes that affect only 1 person and don't have widespread impact. For example, Marty created another alternate reality timeline when he left the note for Doc warning Doc to take precautions against the Libyans. That created an alternate reality timeline in which Doc saves himself from being killed by the Libyans, but that change only affected Doc and didn't have widespread impact to the rest of the world. In Endgame, the Avengers changing the real time by resetting everything back to the way it was before the snap would have widespread impact to the entire world because depending on how much time has passed between Infinity War and Endgame, it could potentially erase hundreds of millions of children from existence forever.
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Post by damngumby on Jan 5, 2019 21:32:19 GMT
No, because "if the Avengers just reset everything" then there will be twice as many people making twice as many babies. But those souls won't be the same as the hundreds of millions of souls who will be permanently erased from existence. The souls would remain the same. They would just return to the cosmic que and inhabit new vessels as they become available. So not only would the Avengers bring back trillions of people/aliens but they would also make it possible for hundreds of millions more souls to be born into the Marvel universe. Are you tired of being wrong yet?
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 5, 2019 21:38:58 GMT
But those souls won't be the same as the hundreds of millions of souls who will be permanently erased from existence. The souls would remain the same. No, the souls wouldn't remain the same. Any babies born in the reset timeline will be completely different souls/people from the souls/people who will be permanently erased from existence by the Avengers playing God and deciding who lives (all their friends) and who dies (all the children conceived and born after the snap). The souls erased from existence by the Avengers actions will not only be lost forever but also forgotten since they will have never existed thanks to the Avengers playing God deciding who lives (all their friends) and who dies (all the children conceived and born after the snap).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 21:39:45 GMT
Lol so alternate realities have less rights to exist than the ones you call the real timelines??? Who made you God to determine which timeline is "real"? A timeline is the real timeline if it occurs naturally. An alternate reality timeline is a timeline that is created when someone goes back to the past and alters the past. For example, Marty created an alternate reality timeline when he traveled back to 1955 and pushed George out of the way of being hit by Lorraine's dad's car. That created an alternate reality timeline in which George and Lorraine don't fall in love and get married and Marty and his siblings are never born. Marty manages to restore the real timeline by getting George and Lorraine together. 2015 Biff also created an alternate reality timeline when he traveled back to 1955 and gave 1955 Biff the almanac. Marty again restored the real timeline by getting back the almanac from 1955 Biff and burning the almanac. Some changes to the timeline are singular changes that affect only 1 person and don't have widespread impact. For example, Marty created another alternate reality timeline when he left the note for Doc warning Doc to take precautions against the Libyans. That created an alternate reality timeline in which Doc saves himself from being killed by the Libyans, but that change only affected Doc and didn't have widespread impact to the rest of the world. In Endgame, the Avengers changing the real time by resetting everything back to the way it was before the snap would have widespread impact to the entire world because depending on how much time has passed between Infinity War and Endgame, it could potentially erase hundreds of millions of children from existence forever. The original timeline was never restored in Back to The Future with loser George and Biff the bully. The world of BTTF was forever in an alternate timeline and if you aren't upset by all the changes that you don't see on the screen, you either are an MCU troll or an alternative timeline hypocrite.
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Post by poutinep on Jan 5, 2019 21:47:37 GMT
You're 'playing god' either way because you're still responsible for your inactions No, you're not. In 1 case, you're actively causing hundreds of millions of children to be wiped from existence forever by going back and reversing time and thus creating an alternate reality timeline in which those hundreds of millions of children will never exist. In the other case, you're just letting the real timeline continue on. "you're just letting the real timeline continue on" but "letting" means you have control over it. Whether you decide to act or not to act, you're inflicting your will upon reality. You are just as responsible for your inactions as you are for your actions. Why do you think there are so many laws about criminal negligence?
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke
There is no real timeline. This is a trope I hate about time travel discussions...it's really annoying when they do this on Legends of Tomorrow but I guess the writers are (or feel) trapped by the status quo of time travel literature. The first way things happen isn't any more real or right than the second way or third way etc. Time does not have a consciousness or a will.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jan 5, 2019 21:49:51 GMT
Is time travel even been confirmed?
Who's to say that they won't use the Gauntlet to reverse what Thanos did?
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Post by damngumby on Jan 5, 2019 21:53:22 GMT
The souls would remain the same. No, the souls wouldn't remain the same. Any babies born in the reset timeline will be completely different souls/people from the souls/people who will be permanently erased from existence by the Avengers playing God and deciding who lives (all their friends) and who dies (all the children conceived and born after the snap). The souls erased from existence by the Avengers actions will not only be lost forever but also forgotten since they will have never existed thanks to the Avengers playing God deciding who lives (all their friends) and who dies (all the children conceived and born after the snap). Souls are eternal, existing outside the realm of the material universe, and unaffected by any chronological manipulation that might occur within that universe. The Avengers are not God, but after Infinity War, they may be sitting at his right hand!
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Jan 5, 2019 22:12:45 GMT
You are really grasping straws...
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Post by James on Jan 5, 2019 22:35:19 GMT
How would anything in that last paragraph even work?
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 5, 2019 22:44:54 GMT
No, you're not. In 1 case, you're actively causing hundreds of millions of children to be wiped from existence forever by going back and reversing time and thus creating an alternate reality timeline in which those hundreds of millions of children will never exist. In the other case, you're just letting the real timeline continue on. "you're just letting the real timeline continue on" but "letting" means you have control over it. Whether you decide to act or not to act, you're inflicting your will upon reality. You are just as responsible for your inactions as you are for your actions. Why do you think there are so many laws about criminal negligence?
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke Criminal negligence doesn't apply here. Criminal negligence applies only when the failure to act results in a future crime occurring. There is no future crime that will occur by just letting the real timeline continue on and letting the hundreds of millions of children conceived and born after the snap continue their existence. So there is no criminal negligence. There is no real timeline.
The first way things happen isn't any more real or right than the second way or third way etc. Yes, there is a real timeline. Everyone is faced with decisions that they have to make. When someone makes a decision, that's part of the real timeline. If someone travels back in time and changes their decision, they've altered the real timeline and created an alternate reality timeline. For example, you make a large bet on the Super Bowl and lose the bet and lose a large sum of money that you couldn't afford to lose. So you're broke and have to sell your house and live in poverty. That's part of the real timeline. If you travel back in time and change your bet so you win the bet, you've altered the real timeline and created an alternate reality timeline. The real timeline is base timeline which occurs naturally. An alternate reality timeline is created when someone goes back in time and changes their decision and alters the past in a way that changes the course of events from the real timeline. For example, in the Star Trek episode The City on the Edge of Forever, McCoy goes back in time and alters the past so the Nazis win World War II and America doesn't have a space program and thus there is no Federation. The real timeline is the Nazis were defeated in World War II and America had a space program and the Federation was created. The alternate reality timeline, created as a result of McCoy going back to the past and altering the past, is the Nazis win World War II and America doesn't have a space program and there's no Federation.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 5, 2019 22:49:29 GMT
What SHOULD The Avengers do to save the world from Thanos and undo his damage, DC-Fan? You can type up a storm easily so let us know the best winnable situation for our heroes to choose from...
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 5, 2019 22:50:59 GMT
Is time travel even been confirmed? Who's to say that they won't use the Gauntlet to reverse what Thanos did? The method of resetting things isn't what's important. What's important is how much time has passed between Infinity War and Endgame. If it's just a matter of minutes, like in Superman: The Movie when Superman reversed time by a few minutes, then the result of resetting things back to the way they were before the snap is relatively lo or minor impact. But if it's months or years, then potentially hundreds of millions of children who were conceived or born after the snap will be permanently erased from existence. The longer the time that has passed between Infinity War an Endgame, the bigger the impact of resetting things back to the way they were before the snap. The Avengers would literally be playing God, deciding who live (all of their friends who turned to dust) and who dies (possibly hundreds of millions of living souls who were conceived and born after the snap). The Avengers would literally be committing an atrocious act of mass murder that would rival Thanos' snap.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Jan 5, 2019 22:54:28 GMT
Oh my God!!!! You know what you're describing right now?!?! STAKES!!
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jan 5, 2019 22:55:31 GMT
Is time travel even been confirmed? Who's to say that they won't use the Gauntlet to reverse what Thanos did? The method of resetting things isn't what's important. What's important is how much time has passed between Infinity War and Endgame. If it's just a matter of minutes, like in Superman: The Movie when Superman reversed time by a few minutes, then the result of resetting things back to the way they were before the snap is relatively lo or minor impact. But if it's months or years, then potentially hundreds of millions of children who were conceived or born after the snap will be permanently erased from existence. The longer the time that has passed between Infinity War an Endgame, the bigger the impact of resetting things back to the way they were before the snap. The Avengers would literally be playing God, deciding who live (all of their friends who turned to dust) and who dies (possibly hundreds of millions of living souls who were conceived and born after the snap). The Avengers would literally be committing an atrocious act of mass murder that would rival Thanos' snap. So your suggestion is for them to do nothing?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 23:06:40 GMT
"you're just letting the real timeline continue on" but "letting" means you have control over it. Whether you decide to act or not to act, you're inflicting your will upon reality. You are just as responsible for your inactions as you are for your actions. Why do you think there are so many laws about criminal negligence?
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke Criminal negligence doesn't apply here. Criminal negligence applies only when the failure to act results in a future crime occurring. There is no future crime that will occur by just letting the real timeline continue on and letting the hundreds of millions of children conceived and born after the snap continue their existence. So there is no criminal negligence. There is no real timeline.
The first way things happen isn't any more real or right than the second way or third way etc. Yes, there is a real timeline. Everyone is faced with decisions that they have to make. When someone makes a decision, that's part of the real timeline. If someone travels back in time and changes their decision, they've altered the real timeline and created an alternate reality timeline. For example, you make a large bet on the Super Bowl and lose the bet and lose a large sum of money that you couldn't afford to lose. So you're broke and have to sell your house and live in poverty. That's part of the real timeline. If you travel back in time and change your bet so you win the bet, you've altered the real timeline and created an alternate reality timeline. The real timeline is base timeline which occurs naturally. An alternate reality timeline is created when someone goes back in time and changes their decision and alters the past in a way that changes the course of events from the real timeline. For example, in the Star Trek episode The City on the Edge of Forever, McCoy goes back in time and alters the past so the Nazis win World War II and America doesn't have a space program and thus there is no Federation. The real timeline is the Nazis were defeated in World War II and America had a space program and the Federation was created. The alternate reality timeline, created as a result of McCoy going back to the past and altering the past, is the Nazis win World War II and America doesn't have a space program and there's no Federation. Hollllll on a second babalooey!!! Ya know what? The "real" timeline is the one where vision's mindstone gets shattered by the Scarlet Witch, innit??? Didn't Thanos create the alternate timeline when he backed it up and yanked the stone?? That is if we use your patented timeline ethics rules?
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 5, 2019 23:07:57 GMT
Is time travel even been confirmed? Who's to say that they won't use the Gauntlet to reverse what Thanos did? The method of resetting things isn't what's important. What's important is how much time has passed between Infinity War and Endgame. If it's just a matter of minutes, like in Superman: The Movie when Superman reversed time by a few minutes, then the result of resetting things back to the way they were before the snap is relatively lo or minor impact. But if it's months or years, then potentially hundreds of millions of children who were conceived or born after the snap will be permanently erased from existence. The longer the time that has passed between Infinity War an Endgame, the bigger the impact of resetting things back to the way they were before the snap. The Avengers would literally be playing God, deciding who live (all of their friends who turned to dust) and who dies (possibly hundreds of millions of living souls who were conceived and born after the snap). The Avengers would literally be committing an atrocious act of mass murder that would rival Thanos' snap. What SHOULD The Avengers do to save the world from Thanos and undo his damage, DC-Fan? You can type up a storm easily so let us know the best winnable situation for our heroes to choose from...
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 5, 2019 23:09:58 GMT
But isn't Superman a Kryptonian child-killer? Killing hundreds and thousands of unborn Kryptonians in Man of Steel? And wouldn't also the Flash because he went back in time and changed history to where John Diggle's daughter was erased from reality and instead a son was born?
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Post by poutinep on Jan 5, 2019 23:13:15 GMT
Criminal negligence doesn't apply here. Yes it does. I'm not talking about law, that was just an example, I'm talking about moral philosophy and how you can do something or you can neglect to do something. Either way, you're making a choice and the choice will have consequences. Yes, there is a real timeline. For example, you make a large bet on the Super Bowl The real timeline is base timeline which occurs naturally. For example, in the Star Trek episode The City on the Edge of ForeverThis is all just the appeal to nature fallacy - except sometimes you say natural and sometimes you say real though they are in this context the exact same thing. Humans are a part of nature. Either everything we do is natural or nothing we do is natural. Additionally, natural doesn't mean good or right or moral.
Humanity is unfortunately currently afflicted by many types of religion. Jehovah's Witnesses don't even allow blood transfusions even though it's a routine thing that easily saves people all the damn time. 'christian scientists' is another set of similar whackos. Is what's natural synonymous with what's moral?
Thanos using the Infinity Stones to kill half the universe isn't any more or less natural than The Avengers using the Stones to undo The Decimation.
Wikipedia's plot summary for Superman: The Movie says
He rewound time to save one measly woman. Was that more natural, more moral, than The Avengers using time travel (if they even do) to save half the universe?
How about episode 100 of Smallville?
How about any incarnation of The Flash since he's always screwing around with time. I don't even know what timeline we're on in CW's The Flash anymore. Let's see...he saved his mom, then undid it creating Flashpoint, then undid it in an attempt to reset things to the way they were but the other timeline somehow seeped through and screwed with the current timeline or some shit. Guess Barry 'played god' to save his parents from death/prison. Then did it again by undoing everything. But The Avengers shouldn't save trillions for the sake of some specific babies from a short timeframe....you're a joke.
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Post by damngumby on Jan 6, 2019 0:53:09 GMT
You ever notice that the wronger DC-Fan gets, the longer his posts get?
I think we’ve reached the point in a DC-Fan thread, where he has been proven wrong, ridiculed, and now he’s just repeating himself until we all get bored and move on.
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