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Post by damngumby on Jan 5, 2019 19:26:23 GMT
Using the data from my previous topic, Who makes the best superhero movies, I have now determined which individual superhero movies are considered the best. This is not my personal opinion (which is as worthless and weak as your personal opinion), it is an objective analysis of a large data set, with all bias set aside. Just to recap the last topic, the MCU clearly makes the best superhero movies, easily dominating all other contenders with the number of movies in the top ten lists. DC also makes a respectable showing, though they kinda fall under the catagory of, what have you done for me lately. The biggest losers are the DCEU and X-Men, who barely make a dent in these lists. I'd like to take this oportunity to thank those posters in my previous topic who helped to validate my conclusions by failing to produce any sort of compeling counter argument. Your assistance was invaluable. How this ranking was determined: I compiled a list of the top ten movies in the top ten superhero movie lists, applied points for their placement in each list, and added it all up. The higher the placement and the more lists a movie appeared in, the more points it recieved. Simple. The Results: #1. The Dark Knight #2. The Avengers TDK and the Avengers were the only two movies to appear in all ten lists. It is quite clear that these two movies are widely considered the best of the best. The points for each movie drops off significantly after 2nd place. #3. (Tie) Logan, Black Panther #4. Spiderman 2 #5. Wonder Woman #6. (Tie) Captain America Winter Soldier, Ironman #7. (Tie) Superman TM, Captain America Civil War #8. The Avengers Infinity War #9. Spiderman into the Spider-verse #10. Batman Begins Six MCU Three DC Two Marvel One DCEU One X-Men Now remember, these are the facts. Your opinion may vary. Try not to conflate the two, eh? |
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Post by charzhino on Jan 5, 2019 19:41:40 GMT
Its not an unreasonable list overall but the biggest anomaly there is black panther and wonder woman. Both have high critic ratings only because they were released at a time were black and female superhero leads were non existent. Moreso since we are in a metoo and blacklivesmatter era.
They are not as good movies as the others, especially Black Panther. They are overpraised because critics who gave them thumbs down would be called racist or sexist. Did no one see the backlash the critics of last jedi/Ghostbusters got, being told star wars isnt for toxic males anymore and being labelled sexist for disliking it. Or critics of black panther being threatened by blacklivesmatter fanatics if they downvoted the movie?
Neither are good enough movies to be on a top 10 list, they are a result of massive artificial boosts ever seen in the history of cinema
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Post by damngumby on Jan 5, 2019 20:40:29 GMT
An interesting exercise is to compare your own top 10 with this definitive list and see if your opinion should be taken seriously or not. My top ten 1. The Incredibles 2. The Dark Knight3. Iron Man4. The Avengers5. Spider-Man 26. Captain America: The Winter Soldier7. Batman Begins8. Captain America: The First Avenger 9. X-men: First Class 10. Watchmen 6 out of 10. I think that means I have reasonably good taste in superhero movies. |
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Post by poutinep on Jan 5, 2019 20:43:10 GMT
Without even looking at the list I can tell you popular opinion doesn't make something an objective fact. This is just an appeal to popularity/majority (bandwagon) fallacy. Movies are subjective. yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagonYou appealed to popularity or the fact that many people do something as an attempted form of validation. The flaw in this argument is that the popularity of an idea has absolutely no bearing on its validity. If it did, then the Earth would have made itself flat for most of history to accommodate this popular belief. Example: Shamus pointed a drunken finger at Sean and asked him to explain how so many people could believe in leprechauns if they're only a silly old superstition. Sean, however, had had a few too many Guinness himself and fell off his chair. Every fallacy on that site has an example but that one doesn't seem particularly helpful... |
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Post by damngumby on Jan 5, 2019 20:48:19 GMT
Here's another one. Superman: The MovieWonder WomanSpider-Man 2The Dark KnightSuperman II Spider-Man Justice League X-Men: Days of Future Past X2: X-Men United The Dark Knight Rises 4 out of 10. If you're looking for someone with their finger on the pulse of what is good and what is not, you may want to look elsewhere. |
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Post by damngumby on Jan 5, 2019 20:53:27 GMT
Without even looking at the list I can tell you popular opinion doesn't make something an objective fact. I am establishing an objective fact about what the popular opinion is. Popular works of art are judged by subjective popular opinion. |
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Post by charzhino on Jan 5, 2019 21:03:43 GMT
Without even looking at the list I can tell you popular opinion doesn't make something an objective fact. This is just an appeal to popularity/majority (bandwagon) fallacy. Movies are subjective. yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagonYou appealed to popularity or the fact that many people do something as an attempted form of validation. The flaw in this argument is that the popularity of an idea has absolutely no bearing on its validity. If it did, then the Earth would have made itself flat for most of history to accommodate this popular belief. Example: Shamus pointed a drunken finger at Sean and asked him to explain how so many people could believe in leprechauns if they're only a silly old superstition. Sean, however, had had a few too many Guinness himself and fell off his chair. Every fallacy on that site has an example but that one doesn't seem particularly helpful... Your fallacy is flawed. You said movies are subjective, but then point out an erroneous example of earth being flat based on popular opinion by forgetting the shape of the earth is more or less an objective fact. |
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Jan 5, 2019 21:07:33 GMT
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Post by James on Jan 5, 2019 22:22:47 GMT
For a list, that’s actually pretty accurate, for the most part. TDK and The Avengers are both in my Top 3 (though Spider-Man '02 tops both IMO).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 23:17:19 GMT
An interesting exercise is to compare your own top 10 with this definitive list and see if your opinion should be taken seriously or not. My top ten 1. The Incredibles 2. The Dark Knight3. Iron Man4. The Avengers5. Spider-Man 26. Captain America: The Winter Soldier7. Batman Begins8. Captain America: The First Avenger 9. X-men: First Class 10. Watchmen 6 out of 10. I think that means I have reasonably good taste in superhero movies.I would actually agree with you there. That's a solid top ten list. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 23:21:54 GMT
I don't know if I can completely agree with the notion that the MCU makes the "best superhero movies" though. They make the most. And some of them are truly excellent. But while most are at least good, they aren't all masterpieces by any means. Yes, Marvel has made more good movies than WB or Sony. But TDK and Spiderman 2 are still leagues better than most MCU movies, at least in my opinion (and yours too according to your own top ten!) , so it really depends on how you want to look at this.
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Post by charzhino on Jan 6, 2019 0:01:47 GMT
I don't know if I can completely agree with the notion that the MCU makes the "best superhero movies" though. They make the most. And some of them are truly excellent. But while most are at least good, they aren't all masterpieces by any means. Yes, Marvel has made more good movies than WB or Sony. But TDK and Spiderman 2 are still leagues better than most MCU movies, at least in my opinion (and yours too according to your own top ten!) , so it really depends on how you want to look at this. This |
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Post by damngumby on Jan 6, 2019 0:44:46 GMT
I don't know if I can completely agree with the notion that the MCU makes the "best superhero movies" though. They make the most. And some of them are truly excellent. But while most are at least good, they aren't all masterpieces by any means. Yes, Marvel has made more good movies than WB or Sony. But TDK and Spiderman 2 are still leagues better than most MCU movies, at least in my opinion (and yours too according to your own top ten!) , so it really depends on how you want to look at this. No one said they are all masterpieces. If the MCU just consistently pumped out mediocre/good movies then they wouldn’t be dominating the top ten. The data shows that TDK has a solid lead over even The Avengers, so hat tip to Christopher Nolan. It’s ironic that the superhero movie most widely viewed as the best is one that tried the most to be least like a superhero movie. That probably has something to say about the genre, in general. |
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Post by poutinep on Jan 6, 2019 1:39:12 GMT
Without even looking at the list I can tell you popular opinion doesn't make something an objective fact. I am establishing an objective fact about what the popular opinion is. Popular works of art are judged by subjective popular opinion. Should say 'most popular' instead of best.'
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 2:09:31 GMT
Lol, the effort trying to make something objective out of something subjective. Put a bunch of subjectives together and it's still subjective, even if you find numbers to back it up, what someone or a bunch of someones prefer, and the amount they prefer won't make someone else's opinions wrong.
Someone will always find some other subjective measure to declare something the "best". But thinking it becomes "fact" for others to bow to is the definition of egocentrism.
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Post by damngumby on Jan 6, 2019 2:20:05 GMT
Lol, the effort trying to make something objective out of something subjective. Put a bunch of subjectives together and it's still subjective, even if you find numbers to back it up, what someone or a bunch of someones prefer, and the amount they prefer won't make someone else's opinions wrong. Someone will always find some other subjective measure to declare something the "best". But thinking it becomes "fact" for others to bow to is the definition of egocentrism. I am establishing an objective fact about what the popular opinion is. Popular works of art are judged by subjective popular opinion. If your opinion differs significantly from the norm, then by definition, your opinion is abnormal. Case in point would be someone who declares that The Avengers, Iron Man, Winter Soldier and Logan are terrible movies. That person’s opinion is abnormal. |
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Post by Skaathar on Jan 6, 2019 2:40:53 GMT
It's actually a pretty decent list, though I wouldn't have included into the Spiderverse in it. Also would have swapped BP with TWS and maybe found a spot for DOFP.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 2:44:42 GMT
Lol, the effort trying to make something objective out of something subjective. Put a bunch of subjectives together and it's still subjective, even if you find numbers to back it up, what someone or a bunch of someones prefer, and the amount they prefer won't make someone else's opinions wrong. Someone will always find some other subjective measure to declare something the "best". But thinking it becomes "fact" for others to bow to is the definition of egocentrism. I am establishing an objective fact about what the popular opinion is. Popular works of art are judged by subjective popular opinion. If your opinion differs significantly from the norm, then by definition, your opinion is abnormal. Case in point would be someone who declares that The Avengers, Iron Man, Winter Soldier and Logan are terrible movies. That person’s opinion is abnormal. I know a huge number of people who would consider any film featuring superheroes to be terrible and a complete waste of time to go see. I don't feel them to have any kind of "abnormal" opinion. I may not agree with the them, but there is nothing abnormal about it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 3:08:59 GMT
I am establishing an objective fact about what the popular opinion is. Popular works of art are judged by subjective popular opinion. If your opinion differs significantly from the norm, then by definition, your opinion is abnormal. Case in point would be someone who declares that The Avengers, Iron Man, Winter Soldier and Logan are terrible movies. That person’s opinion is abnormal. I know a huge number of people who would consider any film featuring superheroes to be terrible and a complete waste of time to go see. I don't feel them to have any kind of "abnormal" opinion. I may not agree with the them, but there is nothing abnormal about it. Agreed. I love them too; they're like candy for my eyes. But there's nothing abnormal about not wanting to watch them. Especially for the larger half of the elder population for whom these are stories meant for kids. It's not that they're necessarily against them for other people; that would require more effort and attention they're willing to spare. Are they missing out? Maybe, but then maybe I'm missing out on a life that isn't ruled by movies.
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Post by Grabthar's Hammer on Jan 6, 2019 3:17:17 GMT
It'd be cool if we tallied everybody's Top 10 here like this.
Anyways.. I think my Top 10 (which changes order sometimes) would be:
1. The Dark Knight
2. Batman Begins
3. Spider-Man 2
4. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
5. Iron Man
6. Wonder Woman
7. Black Panther
8. Logan
9. Avengers: Infinity War
10. Batman Returns
HM: Batman 89
HM: Deadpool
HM: Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse
1-5 pretty much always stays the same.
6-10 switch around a lot.
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