spiderwort
Junior Member
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
@spiderwort
Posts: 2,075
Likes: 9,362
|
Post by spiderwort on Jan 21, 2019 19:59:21 GMT
I think most films, at least American, have glorified war, though I have seen exceptions: All Quiet on the Western Front (1930) is to me a powerful meditation on war because it presents to American audiences the face of the German soldier as hero (or at least protagonist). Its moral issues/ ambiguities are uncompromising and strongly anti-war. And although I wouldn't say the rest of it is much better than most of the conventional war films that came before it, the first twenty-minutes of Saving Private Ryan (1998) are as harrowing and as powerful as any war scenes in cinema. When I saw it, I sat next to a female documentary filmmaker who had emigrated to America from Europe not long after WWII. We'd only met only a short time before, but during those opening moments she held my hand and cried. I don't know how anyone watching those extraordinary images could fail to see that war is insane. Same with Rome, Open City (1944) The final moments of that film are haunting, because they convey the utter capriciousness of war. Death comes in a flash, like nature, "long in tooth and claw," and there's no escape from it. I learned from that film that the most devastating truth of war is not so much that it's immoral, but that it's AMORAL, against which there's no defense. And, in a slightly different vein, I was powerfully affected by sixties' films like Petulia (1968) dramas that played out against the drone of the Viet Nam war on background tvs and radios, a constant reminder of the human cost of political hubris. I do think those messages penetrated, at least subliminally, the consciousness of the American culture at the time.
Your thoughts on this subject about which I know many books have been written, though I have not read them?
|
|
|
Post by BATouttaheck on Jan 21, 2019 21:27:10 GMT
TESTAMENTThey don't know who started it and ultimately that does not really matter. Much more powerful (imo) than the blood and gore of the usual aftermath films. Warning: Do not watch this on a bad day and don't try to hold back the tears.
|
|
|
Post by jeffersoncody on Jan 21, 2019 21:32:27 GMT
I think most films, at least American, have glorified war, though I have seen exceptions:
I don't think PLATOON glorifies war spidey. Nor does COME AND SEE - which is Russian.
|
|
|
Post by bravomailer on Jan 21, 2019 21:36:37 GMT
I think most films, at least American, have glorified war, though I have seen exceptions: All Quiet on the Western Front (1930) is to me a powerful meditation on war because it presents to American audiences the face of the German soldier as hero (or at least protagonist). Its moral issues/ ambiguities are uncompromising and strongly anti-war.
People, especially boys, view things their own way. Historian George Mosse grew up in Germany in the 20s and 30s and reports that many boys considered the book All Quiet on the Western Front to be a thrilling action novel. Similarly, Full Metal Jacket appealed to many American youths and figured in their decision to join the military.
|
|
|
Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Jan 21, 2019 21:36:39 GMT
The Iliad was the best work about war I have read since it was remarkably impartial and profound. It doesn't criticize the combatants or the politics, it just presents the tragedy of war from all sides. Ultimately the message is, we all live within the walls of Troy.
Your typical Hollywood war movie injects a fair bit of propaganda intent, whether it is pro-war (WW 2) or anti-war (Vietnam). There's always some side that is put up to blame for hostilities. The generals, the politicians, etc. The Iliad didn't do that.
The last war movie I watched which provided a decent closure was Commandos, a 1968 European film. Unpretentious ending.
Wasn't it Truffaut who said a war movie can never be truly anti-war because it makes combat glamorous.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 21:58:35 GMT
Maybe, that there are no winners in war ....only losers ?
|
|
|
Post by them1ghtyhumph on Jan 21, 2019 22:35:46 GMT
That it sucks
|
|
spiderwort
Junior Member
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
@spiderwort
Posts: 2,075
Likes: 9,362
|
Post by spiderwort on Jan 21, 2019 23:04:20 GMT
I think most films, at least American, have glorified war, though I have seen exceptions:
I don't think PLATOON glorifies war spidey. Nor does COME AND SEE - which is Russian. I agree with you about PLATOON, grant. And I haven't seen the other, but based upon that very powerful clip, I believe I'd agree with you on that one, too. I think I would also add APOCALYPSE NOW to the list of films that don't glorify war.
|
|
spiderwort
Junior Member
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
@spiderwort
Posts: 2,075
Likes: 9,362
|
Post by spiderwort on Jan 21, 2019 23:10:10 GMT
The Iliad was the best work about war I have read since it was remarkably impartial and profound. It doesn't criticize the combatants or the politics, it just presents the tragedy of war from all sides. Ultimately the message is, we all live within the walls of Troy. Your typical Hollywood war movie injects a fair bit of propaganda intent, whether it is pro-war (WW 2) or anti-war (Vietnam). There's always some side that is put up to blame for hostilities. The generals, the politicians, etc. The Iliad didn't do that. The last war movie I watched which provided a decent closure was Commandos, a 1968 European film. Unpretentious ending. Wasn't it Truffaut who said a war movie can never be truly anti-war because it makes combat glamorous. Very interesting comments, primemover. I haven't thought of "The Illiad" in ages. That said, I do believe there are a few films that don't glamorize combat. For example, I'm always deeply affected by the horrors of the battles in the 1930 version of ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT. Still, I can't refute that many war films do glorify combat, which is unfortunate and disturbing.
|
|
|
Post by bravomailer on Jan 22, 2019 0:08:50 GMT
People, especially boys, view things their own way. Historian George Mosse grew up in Germany in the 20s and 30s and reports that many boys considered the book All Quiet on the Western Front to be a thrilling action novel. Similarly, Full Metal Jacket appealed to many American youths and figured in their decision to join the military. How interesting. I never would have considered that to be the case, but I suppose in some way it does make sense - sadly, in my view. But what does he say about their feeling toward the 1930 film version of ALL QUIET, I wonder? I never read the novel, so I don't know about that, but the film is so full of angst, sorrow, and tragedy, it would seem to me that it would dissuade any youth from wanting to fight. Very interesting, indeed, especially given that the story of ALL QUIET is about boys being inspired by their teacher to fight, only to return home to tell the man that he doesn't know what he's talking about. That it's an awful thing, not a great one. Not sure Mosse mentioned the film but I believe when the Nazis took power in 1933, both book and film were verboten. As as for Come and See, it's one of the greatest war films ever made. Kubrick paid homage to its ending in Full Metal Jacket.
|
|
|
Post by twothousandonemark on Jan 22, 2019 0:54:14 GMT
The Thin Red Line
War in the place of nature & humankind.
|
|
spiderwort
Junior Member
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
@spiderwort
Posts: 2,075
Likes: 9,362
|
Post by spiderwort on Jan 22, 2019 1:00:22 GMT
The Thin Red Line War in the place of nature & humankind.
An appropriate theme for Malick. I think he would agree. (Interesting that you got the nature thing. I think that's his essential muse.)
|
|
|
Post by koskiewicz on Jan 22, 2019 1:42:32 GMT
As a Vietnam war era veteran ('69/'71) I can honestly tell most here that the vast majority of trained troops abhorred the thought of physical combat. I was a draftee and because of my upbringing, I did my duty when called upon, as did the vast number of fellow troops I served with. The real kick in the pants was when many of us came home and were largely ignored by the public at large.
I've said this before, the film "We Were Soldiers" is the most defining film of that pointless war.
|
|
|
Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Jan 22, 2019 4:04:49 GMT
Usually a war movie can be divided into:
the regular soldiers --often sympathetic portrayals
the sadistic or patriotic soldiers--who believe fighting is the right thing to do but are usually presented as wrong
the military brass--sometimes they are presented as well meaning but hindered by higher ups--usually a king figure
the bureaucrat -- Rambo 2 has this type of adversary
the arms industry -making money from war
There are two groups left out of most war stories. Finance-banking and media/publishing. They are either invisible or presented as innocent bystanders or in the case of media righteous defenders of justice.
Citizen Kane has "you provide the prose poems, and I'll provide the war" but in that case they are suggesting a Hearst figure--they leave out all the other media ownership so they suggest it is more about one man's ego, not something systemic.
|
|
|
Post by BATouttaheck on Jan 22, 2019 4:23:44 GMT
Showing the after effects of war on ordinary soldiers IN COUNTRY![](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMTgxNDU4MTkyNV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwNzE5NzE5._V1_.jpg) a sub-topic to this thread but a film well worth seeing … perhaps Bruce Willis' best and truest performance to date. Others like this would be The Best Years of Our Lives and Coming Home
|
|
|
Post by bravomailer on Jan 22, 2019 17:46:07 GMT
|
|
|
Post by teleadm on Jan 22, 2019 20:01:07 GMT
Two I came to think of:
Paths of Glory 1957, Stanley Kubrik's and Kirk Douglas' stark anti-war message.
and
Oh! What a Lovely War 1969, Attenborough's movie is far from flawless and great, but also puts forward the idiocy of war.
|
|
|
Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jan 22, 2019 21:16:05 GMT
An older one, Battlegound (1949). Wikipedia actually summed it up nicely...
"The film is notable for portraying American soldiers as vulnerable and human. While they remain steadfast and courageous, each soldier has at least one moment in the film when he seriously considers running away, schemes to get sent back from the front line, slacks off, or complains about the situation he is in."
Not quite The Green Berets
|
|
|
Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Jan 23, 2019 3:57:35 GMT
YESTERDAY'S ENEMY is an interesting war movie. I'd have to watch it again to reassess but it was at least a microcosmic examination of war actions and the conflicts with soldiers and civilians.
Bridge on the River Kwai is considerably less cerebral by comparison.
Another one that is unusual is OPERATION: CROSSBOW since it places the combatants of each side on equal footing pretty much and avoids any extreme portrayals to make it a good vs evil conflict. The rocket aviation sequence at the beginning is like a German version of THE RIGHT STUFF. Anthony Quayle and Lili Palmer have interesting contrasting parts.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 7:11:35 GMT
Maybe, that there are no winners in war ....only losers ?
Oh, I think in the best of them this is the absolute truth, Julie! Thank you.
Other very good films, that add to this perception are Stalingrad (1993) and Fury (2014).
|
|