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Post by Doghouse6 on Jan 23, 2019 22:49:59 GMT
Can't a film be a black comedy AND a film noir? Agree SUNSET not the noirest on the block, but I don't really object. And Norma does shoot Joe dead - which most would say is a crime - even if she is batshit crazy.
Great films can defy categories - I genuinely believe JOHNNY GUITAR a noir - but it is also a western, a romance, a melodrama and a comedy... truly the gift that keeps on giving.
I cannot find anything comic about Sunset. You have a poor demented woman who is trapped in the past and, instead of people helping her, they feed her delusion. Black, yes, comedy, no.
I'd never describe Sunset Blvd as a comedy, black or otherwise; doing so would tend to misrepresent the film. I would, however, describe it as darkly satiric, reflecting director/writer Wilder's generally cynical, wisecracking sensibilities. A part of this lies in the contrasts drawn between the old and new Hollywood of the day, embodied in its view of the excesses of the first, and the idealistic ambition tempered with self-defensive sarcasm of the second. Very little of it is designed to elicit more than the occasional chuckle, but the insiders' look is a self-aware one that mocks itself, the bulk of which is carried by Joe's attitudes as expressed in both his voice-over narration and in-scene dialogue. And Norma herself, as expertly written and played, contributes as well. Tragic as she is, she's the vehicle by which the blitheness of a bygone era, ossified into self-absorbed delusion once the fun is over, is conveyed, and Swanson knows just how far to go in depicting its most outrageous aspects, and when to reel it back in to emphasize its desperation. Often, she's called upon to do both at once, and between she and Holden, relying on the delicately nuanced footing of both script and direction, a high-wire act of the most precarious sort is successfully accomplished.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jan 23, 2019 23:09:51 GMT
I cannot find anything comic about Sunset. You have a poor demented woman who is trapped in the past and, instead of people helping her, they feed her delusion. Black, yes, comedy, no.
I'd never describe Sunset Blvd as a comedy, black or otherwise; doing so would tend to misrepresent the film. I would, however, describe it as darkly satiric, reflecting director/writer Wilder's generally cynical, wisecracking sensibilities. A part of this lies in the contrasts drawn between the old and new Hollywood of the day, embodied in its view of the excesses of the first, and the idealistic ambition tempered with self-defensive sarcasm of the second. Very little of it is designed to elicit more than the occasional chuckle, but the insiders' look is a self-aware one that mocks itself, the bulk of which is carried by Joe's attitudes as expressed in both his voice-over narration and in-scene dialogue. And Norma herself, as expertly written and played, contributes as well. Tragic as she is, she's the vehicle by which the blitheness of a bygone era, ossified into self-absorbed delusion once the fun is over, is conveyed, and Swanson knows just how far to go in depicting its most outrageous aspects, and when to reel it back in to emphasize its desperation. Often, she's called upon to do both at once, and between she and Holden, relying on the delicately nuanced footing of both script and direction, a high-wire act of the most precarious sort is successfully accomplished. Leonard Martin called it that, not me.
Of course, any Wilder film is going to have great dialogue. Like Tarantino or Coen. I seen the movie as a commentary on Hollywood throwing away the great silent stars, like the real Gloria Swanson. I think Louise Brooks worked at a department store a few years after Pandora's Box. And "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Max and Joe think they are helping Norma but are fueling her madness. Cecil DeMille throws her a chance to get back into the movies but she won't have it, seeing her as the glamorous star of Joe's new screenplay. And Max's fan mail doens't help.
In any way of analysis, it's a great film. I wouldn't call it black comedy or Film Noir. And I'm sorry the Sunset hijacked the thread.
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spiderwort
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@spiderwort
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Post by spiderwort on Feb 10, 2019 0:18:43 GMT
I've never been able to ascribe noir to a genre, per se, though certain genres lend themselves to the noir style. I think it's more valuable, interesting and enduring as a style. "Black film," the literal translation, is, for me, the first criteria. Shadows are paramount. That's why I'm disinclined to include films like Sunset Boulevard in the noir category, and why I feel that what I call the "Victorian Noirs" (my own term), like Gaslight and The Spiral Staircase, do fall into the category.
But noir is, and probably always will be, one of those amorphous concepts that encompasses many possibilities. To say nothing of its roots in German Expressionism, as well as the early Warner Brothers films that were shot without a lot of light, because it was a "poor" studio that couldn't afford to build great sets. I would never dispute the fact that certain people could credibly see it as a genre with certain narrative commonalities. And yet I'm still more interested in it as a style of filmmaking, which includes dark shadows along with some of those narrative elements (or not). I believe it is more than a genre, and that's why it has been so enduring and influential. But it's a subject that will be debated for many decades to come, I'm sure.
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Post by geode on Jul 30, 2019 7:04:28 GMT
I now think of Film Noir as a wry joke that the French perpetrating on us decades ago. They are laughing their heads off at how seriously some now take it as a genre.
I think the main problem is that it got distorted from the original concept to the point where any B&W crime or detective film started to be classified within it. Then having to be B&W went out the window. I was in a discussion about Film Noir on one of the old IMDb boards years ago. I purposely selected a film I thought was about as far from what the concept is supposed to be, maybe it was The Sound of Music and argued that it was noir and force fitted scenes into the so-called required aspects. I got agreement from some people!
When I bought into the idea 40 years ago I remember the criteria being used seemed to be more restrictive. Films included had to be American, set in post WW II America, have an urban setting, take place largely at night, be in B&W, and have a bleak downer ending where the hero is basically worse off for the experience he had in the events that have preceded... It was claimed that the genre basically closed in the 50s with Touch of Evil. I made two exceptions, The Woman in the Window started out as pure noir, but the added ending after previews was not a downer. Odd Man Out was British, and set outside the U.S.
For years I have seen claims that The Maltese Falcon was the first entry, but I don't think it is noir as Sam Spade is never really in serious peril. The often playful Max Steiner on its own shows this is not a proper selection for this so-called genre.
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Post by london777 on Jul 30, 2019 23:28:00 GMT
... noir in its purest form wasn't looking to send you home with a smile on your face. All good films send me home with a smile on my face.
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Post by OldAussie on Jul 31, 2019 0:24:42 GMT
Is it a style or a genre? I'll go with style.
It seems some purists have a narrow definition of noir including - 1 - It MUST be American. 2 - It MUST be black and white. 3 - It MUST only incorporate the years 1941-1958 (The Maltese Falcon to Touch of Evil) . 4 - It should contain some or all of: femme fatale/flashback/voiceover and more elements which I don't recall at the moment.
I recall one nice comment on what makes a noir which goes something like "It's about a woman with a past and a man with no future."
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Post by mstreepsucks on Jul 31, 2019 0:43:09 GMT
good question, I always asked myself really, what is this crappy term even mean ? When referring to what film noir even is...It's some sort of crap, but not sure what crap it is.
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