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Post by rizdek on Jan 28, 2019 14:58:18 GMT
"experiments on shorter lengths of RNA chains." Did you reference these experiments? What is the significance of what you think these experiments show...that long chain molecules, such as RNA, could never form "naturally" and must only occur due to divine intervention?
" What really matters is that the chains do need to do something more constructive now. " Are you suggesting that any time an RNA chain is longer than ~40 molecules it represents a direct divine intervention tantamount to a miracle? So life in general is just one long God caused miracle, with God essentially performing untold trillions of ongoing miracles inside each animal and plant cell just to keep them alive? Is this the best God could do? Create matter/energy so poorly designed that HE has to keep anything of use going perpetually? Does he have to artificially keep stars burning and even keep water molecules together in a perpetual series of miracles everywhere on earth and throughout the universe where ever water occurs?
After living things have been assembled they have strategies for protection against problems in the environment and strategies for collecting and utilizing energy to duplicate very long (!) chains of RNA and no further intelligent designer is required. So you would agree that the things that happen in living cells (their strategies) are purely natural...including metabolism, cell division, breaking down protein to release nitrogen, subsequent protein formation, the kreb's cycle and genetic replication...all that is purely natural...something that goes on due to regular laws of chemistry. IOW, once life "got started" it proceeds naturally with all the myriad of complex reactions and interactions being just what chemicals do and what chemistry allows? So the chemistry of life does not require any divine intervention to keep it going and as long as the conditions are just so, the chemistry of life will proceed and support its continuance and proliferation. Furthermore, I think we could agree that the chemistry of life proceeds in a nonrandom manner, it doesn't require some illusive "random chance generator"...an almost magical combination of chemicals that is counter to natural chemical interaction...it's all going on along regular and essentially predictable (or at least theoretically predictable) courses of interaction.
If we agree on that, then I'm safe in believing that if those conditions occurred by some natural means in a natural setting...or some essentially similar natural conditions...at some point in the billion years between when the earth is believed to have formed, during which surface water began collecting and when life is believed to have appeared, that the normal chemistry we agree goes on in living cells would have been sufficient to have triggered primitive life. Then I see no reason to conclude that this life, due to the process of "essentially" random mutations and natural selection, could not have evolved into the life forms we see around us.
I say "essentially" random because I'm not convinced anything purely random occurs in nature. And even if there is, I see no reason to invoke such randomness into the process of life and life reproduction. At the level at which life chemistry occurs...and especially the replication of genetic material...there are a host of factors that could come into play making the process (mutations that provide variation in the replicating process) for all intents and purposes random. For example, it is believed that radiation from the sun might have an effect on the reproduction of genetic material. So while those emanations from that distant object didn't really happen because of purely random processes, ie the chemical reaction in the sun which produces this radiation, is proceeding along regular and understood...or at least theoretically understandABLE, their hitting the earth and the interacting with the specific molecules that are undergoing replication at the time they did becomes an essentially random influence. IOW, for all intents and purposes we can say mutations are caused by random factors even though each of those individual factors might not occur due to purely random processes.
I have seen no research or evidence that the process of life is not normal chemistry nor anything that suggests that under the proper conditions, that same chemistry that now sustains life, cannot have triggered life from noon-living chemicals, either on earth, or perhaps on some distant planet such that the essential components somehow found their way to earth so life got a foothold here. As long as NO divine intervention is required for the chemistry of life, it seems safe to say the origin of life is due to a natural process. Do you think God would have been unable to create matter/energy those billions of years ago in just the right way SUCH THAT it could eventually self organize into life naturally?
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Post by Arlon10 on Jan 29, 2019 0:35:29 GMT
After living things have been assembled they have strategies for protection against problems in the environment and strategies for collecting and utilizing energy to duplicate very long (!) chains of RNA and no further intelligent designer is required. So you would agree that the things that happen in living cells (their strategies) are purely natural...including metabolism, cell division, breaking down protein to release nitrogen, subsequent protein formation, the kreb's cycle and genetic replication...all that is purely natural...something that goes on due to regular laws of chemistry. IOW, once life "got started" it proceeds naturally with all the myriad of complex reactions and interactions being just what chemicals do and what chemistry allows? So the chemistry of life does not require any divine intervention to keep it going and as long as the conditions are just so, the chemistry of life will proceed and support its continuance and proliferation. Furthermore, I think we could agree that the chemistry of life proceeds in a nonrandom manner, it doesn't require some illusive "random chance generator"...an almost magical combination of chemicals that is counter to natural chemical interaction...it's all going on along regular and essentially predictable (or at least theoretically predictable) courses of interaction.
If we agree on that, then I'm safe in believing that if those conditions occurred by some natural means in a natural setting...or some essentially similar natural conditions...at some point in the billion years between when the earth is believed to have formed, during which surface water began collecting and when life is believed to have appeared, that the normal chemistry we agree goes on in living cells would have been sufficient to have triggered primitive life. Then I see no reason to conclude that this life, due to the process of "essentially" random mutations and natural selection, could not have evolved into the life forms we see around us.
I say "essentially" random because I'm not convinced anything purely random occurs in nature. And even if there is, I see no reason to invoke such randomness into the process of life and life reproduction. At the level at which life chemistry occurs...and especially the replication of genetic material...there are a host of factors that could come into play making the process (mutations that provide variation in the replicating process) for all intents and purposes random. For example, it is believed that radiation from the sun might have an effect on the reproduction of genetic material. So while those emanations from that distant object didn't really happen because of purely random processes, ie the chemical reaction in the sun which produces this radiation, is proceeding along regular and understood...or at least theoretically understandABLE, their hitting the earth and the interacting with the specific molecules that are undergoing replication at the time they did becomes an essentially random influence. IOW, for all intents and purposes we can say mutations are caused by random factors even though each of those individual factors might not occur due to purely random processes.
I have seen no research or evidence that the process of life is not normal chemistry nor anything that suggests that under the proper conditions, that same chemistry that now sustains life, cannot have triggered life from noon-living chemicals, either on earth, or perhaps on some distant planet such that the essential components somehow found their way to earth so life got a foothold here. As long as NO divine intervention is required for the chemistry of life, it seems safe to say the origin of life is due to a natural process. Do you think God would have been unable to create matter/energy those billions of years ago in just the right way SUCH THAT it could eventually self organize into life naturally?
You are correct that what I said implies that living things might not require a soul, if that's what you're getting at. That is, it does seem to me the machine is capable of sustenance activities at least, if only by program. Whether it would necessarily work without a soul (or a ghost in the machine) is not certain. You jumped to soon. People have been known to die from lacking a will to live. I have said many times that the people who think they have no soul might in fact not have one, but that doesn't mean other people have no soul. I hope you realize that people have been arguing the special existence of consciousness for millennia. The argument is not likely to be settled by you. I believe I have a soul because I can perceive it directly myself. I'm sorry you can't do the same. Maybe you do and maybe you don't have a soul. What you believe you have or haven't seen doesn't matter. I have enough knowledge of RNA to know that short chains do not build up continuously. I realize many people hoped they would. I realize they have been watching and helping them along in laboratories for decades now and the chains do not build up continuously. That is proof they won't. That you fail to accept that truth is your problem. Many people believe that it is important to pretend there is no god in order to maintain the social order. If you can't feed thousands of people with five loaves and two fishes, you like to believe no one else can either so that your power is more readily accepted. I do not have that problem. I know I can't. If other people can then I say have at it. I believe God does not typically do their bidding though, nor have they shown me their abilities at all yet. I regularly participate in maintaining the social order by real science and rational argument. I find no need to lie about anything. I also think lying is worse at maintaining power than accepting some things are unknown. I suspect a god was wise enough to hide things from you in order to keep you sensible.
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Post by rizdek on Jan 29, 2019 0:45:38 GMT
So you would agree that the things that happen in living cells (their strategies) are purely natural...including metabolism, cell division, breaking down protein to release nitrogen, subsequent protein formation, the kreb's cycle and genetic replication...all that is purely natural...something that goes on due to regular laws of chemistry. IOW, once life "got started" it proceeds naturally with all the myriad of complex reactions and interactions being just what chemicals do and what chemistry allows? So the chemistry of life does not require any divine intervention to keep it going and as long as the conditions are just so, the chemistry of life will proceed and support its continuance and proliferation. Furthermore, I think we could agree that the chemistry of life proceeds in a nonrandom manner, it doesn't require some illusive "random chance generator"...an almost magical combination of chemicals that is counter to natural chemical interaction...it's all going on along regular and essentially predictable (or at least theoretically predictable) courses of interaction.
If we agree on that, then I'm safe in believing that if those conditions occurred by some natural means in a natural setting...or some essentially similar natural conditions...at some point in the billion years between when the earth is believed to have formed, during which surface water began collecting and when life is believed to have appeared, that the normal chemistry we agree goes on in living cells would have been sufficient to have triggered primitive life. Then I see no reason to conclude that this life, due to the process of "essentially" random mutations and natural selection, could not have evolved into the life forms we see around us.
I say "essentially" random because I'm not convinced anything purely random occurs in nature. And even if there is, I see no reason to invoke such randomness into the process of life and life reproduction. At the level at which life chemistry occurs...and especially the replication of genetic material...there are a host of factors that could come into play making the process (mutations that provide variation in the replicating process) for all intents and purposes random. For example, it is believed that radiation from the sun might have an effect on the reproduction of genetic material. So while those emanations from that distant object didn't really happen because of purely random processes, ie the chemical reaction in the sun which produces this radiation, is proceeding along regular and understood...or at least theoretically understandABLE, their hitting the earth and the interacting with the specific molecules that are undergoing replication at the time they did becomes an essentially random influence. IOW, for all intents and purposes we can say mutations are caused by random factors even though each of those individual factors might not occur due to purely random processes.
I have seen no research or evidence that the process of life is not normal chemistry nor anything that suggests that under the proper conditions, that same chemistry that now sustains life, cannot have triggered life from noon-living chemicals, either on earth, or perhaps on some distant planet such that the essential components somehow found their way to earth so life got a foothold here. As long as NO divine intervention is required for the chemistry of life, it seems safe to say the origin of life is due to a natural process. Do you think God would have been unable to create matter/energy those billions of years ago in just the right way SUCH THAT it could eventually self organize into life naturally?
You are correct that what I said implies that living things might not require a soul, if that's what you're getting at. That is, it does seem to me the machine is capable of sustenance activities at least, if only by program. Whether it would necessarily work without a soul (or a ghost in the machine) is not certain. You jumped to soon. People have been known to die from lacking a will to live. I have said many times that the people who think they have no soul might in fact not have one, but that doesn't mean other people have no soul. I hope you realize that people have been arguing the special existence of consciousness for millennia. The argument is not likely to be settled by you. I believe I have a soul because I can perceive it directly myself. I'm sorry you can't do the same. Maybe you do and maybe you don't have a soul. What you believe you have or haven't seen doesn't matter. I have enough knowledge of RNA to know that short chains do not build up continuously. I realize many people hoped they would. I realize they have been watching and helping them along in laboratories for decades now and the chains do not build up continuously. That is proof they won't. That you fail to accept that truth is your problem. Many people believe that it is important to pretend there is no god in order to maintain the social order. If you can't feed thousands of people with five loaves and two fishes, you like to believe no one else can either so that your power is more readily accepted. I do not have that problem. I know I can't. If other people can then I say have at it. I believe God does not typically do their bidding though, nor have they shown me their abilities at all yet. I regularly participate in maintaining the social order by real science and rational argument. I find no need to lie about anything. I also think lying is worse at maintaining power than accepting some things are unknown. I suspect a god was wise enough to hide things from you in order to keep you sensible. I don't think believing that life arose naturally and that evolution is a purely natural process means people don't have souls. I mean, if I was a theist who believed humans need souls to be complete and that God wanted people to have souls I'd assume God could work out that details of how to make that happen all the while depending on his natural creation to have produced the human bodies into which he placed those souls.
So setting the whole soul thing aside, I am not convinced that we know enough to state unequivocally that RNA could not have evolved from long chained precursor molecules that arose naturally. Just because they've been doing research for decades isn't proof that it won't ever happen. But even if it is never done in the lab, it is still not proof that it could not have happened in the hundreds of millions years after the earth formed and water began collecting on the earth's surface. But more importantly even if they managed to duplicate precisely how life formed...right down to the exact chemicals that formed and in what order, it would still not be proof that God does not exist or that God didn't create the matter and energy from which life self-organized.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jan 29, 2019 1:38:49 GMT
That's nice. However it has nothing to do with your arguments against me, here or anywhere else. I never tried to prove anything about the basis of consciousness. I believe I have a soul, but I don't expect you to believe I have one. It is a rather subjective experience. I suspect "scientific" investigation is not likely to help since it remains beyond the reach of science. It is a rather fascinating discussion, but only in a recreational way. I see lots of castles in the air in the article, but I don't see where they intend to land if ever. Do you? I did not read it all. It might serve to note here that Hindu philosophy says that the only way to perceive the atman ("soul") is directly, there is no circuitous route. That might save some of those people lots of trouble. It is not as entertaining as Hindu philosophy and no more scientific. Or if it is maybe you could cut to the chase.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jan 29, 2019 1:52:06 GMT
You are correct that what I said implies that living things might not require a soul, if that's what you're getting at. That is, it does seem to me the machine is capable of sustenance activities at least, if only by program. Whether it would necessarily work without a soul (or a ghost in the machine) is not certain. You jumped to soon. People have been known to die from lacking a will to live. I have said many times that the people who think they have no soul might in fact not have one, but that doesn't mean other people have no soul. I hope you realize that people have been arguing the special existence of consciousness for millennia. The argument is not likely to be settled by you. I believe I have a soul because I can perceive it directly myself. I'm sorry you can't do the same. Maybe you do and maybe you don't have a soul. What you believe you have or haven't seen doesn't matter. I have enough knowledge of RNA to know that short chains do not build up continuously. I realize many people hoped they would. I realize they have been watching and helping them along in laboratories for decades now and the chains do not build up continuously. That is proof they won't. That you fail to accept that truth is your problem. Many people believe that it is important to pretend there is no god in order to maintain the social order. If you can't feed thousands of people with five loaves and two fishes, you like to believe no one else can either so that your power is more readily accepted. I do not have that problem. I know I can't. If other people can then I say have at it. I believe God does not typically do their bidding though, nor have they shown me their abilities at all yet. I regularly participate in maintaining the social order by real science and rational argument. I find no need to lie about anything. I also think lying is worse at maintaining power than accepting some things are unknown. I suspect a god was wise enough to hide things from you in order to keep you sensible. I don't think believing that life arose naturally and that evolution is a purely natural process means people don't have souls. I mean, if I was a theist who believed humans need souls to be complete and that God wanted people to have souls I'd assume God could work out that details of how to make that happen all the while depending on his natural creation to have produced the human bodies into which he placed those souls.
So setting the whole soul thing aside, I am not convinced that we know enough to state unequivocally that RNA could not have evolved from long chained precursor molecules that arose naturally. Just because they've been doing research for decades isn't proof that it won't ever happen. But even if it is never done in the lab, it is still not proof that it could not have happened in the hundreds of millions years after the earth formed and water began collecting on the earth's surface. But more importantly even if they managed to duplicate precisely how life formed...right down to the exact chemicals that formed and in what order, it would still not be proof that God does not exist or that God didn't create the matter and energy from which life self-organized.
I have little interest in proving a god exists. Enough people believe sufficiently in and "fear" (are careful about) a god that there isn't much need for proof, and the people who do need it are not receptive anyway. I simply state the obvious. The "growth" of short, lifeless RNA chains into something living without assistance from an intelligent designer is not logical. Seeing the same thing over and over and expecting something different to happen has been suggested as a definition of insanity. It is only your vain hope that you can explain the origin of life yourself that keeps you so obstinate.
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Post by faustus5 on Jan 29, 2019 11:22:54 GMT
That's nice. However it has nothing to do with your arguments against me, here or anywhere else. Yes it does, shit for brains. You haven't backed up so much as a single one of your scientific claims with a citation from scientific literature. I have. That's the only point I was making.
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Post by rizdek on Jan 29, 2019 11:46:52 GMT
I don't think believing that life arose naturally and that evolution is a purely natural process means people don't have souls. I mean, if I was a theist who believed humans need souls to be complete and that God wanted people to have souls I'd assume God could work out that details of how to make that happen all the while depending on his natural creation to have produced the human bodies into which he placed those souls.
So setting the whole soul thing aside, I am not convinced that we know enough to state unequivocally that RNA could not have evolved from long chained precursor molecules that arose naturally. Just because they've been doing research for decades isn't proof that it won't ever happen. But even if it is never done in the lab, it is still not proof that it could not have happened in the hundreds of millions years after the earth formed and water began collecting on the earth's surface. But more importantly even if they managed to duplicate precisely how life formed...right down to the exact chemicals that formed and in what order, it would still not be proof that God does not exist or that God didn't create the matter and energy from which life self-organized.
I have little interest in proving a god exists. Enough people believe sufficiently in and "fear" (are careful about) a god that there isn't much need for proof, and the people who do need it are not receptive anyway. I simply state the obvious. The "growth" of short, lifeless RNA chains into something living without assistance from an intelligent designer is not logical. Seeing the same thing over and over and expecting something different to happen has been suggested as a definition of insanity. It is only your vain hope that you can explain the origin of life yourself that keeps you so obstinate. Like I said, showing that life could develop naturally would not prove God didn't exist. Nor does failure of experiments to produce something that is sufficiently living from natural materials suggest God must exist. As far as trying things over and over to accomplish something, consider:
And that was just to get one little filament of material to burn continuously in a small glass bulb.
And, as for
" I have little interest in proving a god exists. Enough people believe sufficiently in and "fear" (are careful about) a god that there isn't much need for proof, and the people who do need it are not receptive anyway."
Yes, the vast majority of people believe in something they call God and for various reasons. God becomes a vague term that is malleable and molded into whatever someone wants it to be. But you realize that not all those definitions/descriptions are not the same as yours. So while you don't have to prove anything to get people to say they believe in God...whatever that means to them, you would be hard pressed and would likely fail to prove to them that YOUR specific version of God exists. The vast majority of people in the world would likely NOT be receptive to YOUR version of God.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jan 29, 2019 12:41:41 GMT
I have little interest in proving a god exists. Enough people believe sufficiently in and "fear" (are careful about) a god that there isn't much need for proof, and the people who do need it are not receptive anyway. I simply state the obvious. The "growth" of short, lifeless RNA chains into something living without assistance from an intelligent designer is not logical. Seeing the same thing over and over and expecting something different to happen has been suggested as a definition of insanity. It is only your vain hope that you can explain the origin of life yourself that keeps you so obstinate. Like I said, showing that life could develop naturally would not prove God didn't exist. Nor does failure of experiments to produce something that is sufficiently living from natural materials suggest God must exist. As far as trying things over and over to accomplish something, consider:
And that was just to get one little filament of material to burn continuously in a small glass bulb.
And, as for
" I have little interest in proving a god exists. Enough people believe sufficiently in and "fear" (are careful about) a god that there isn't much need for proof, and the people who do need it are not receptive anyway."
Yes, the vast majority of people believe in something they call God and for various reasons. God becomes a vague term that is malleable and molded into whatever someone wants it to be. But you realize that not all those definitions/descriptions are not the same as yours. So while you don't have to prove anything to get people to say they believe in God...whatever that means to them, you would be hard pressed and would likely fail to prove to them that YOUR specific version of God exists. The vast majority of people in the world would likely NOT be receptive to YOUR version of God.
When we say that the likelihood of RNA assembling itself from not alive to alive is like expecting a tornado to assemble an automobile atheists complain that the comparison is not fair, not analogous. I'm going to have to say that the light bulb filament argument utterly fails for many reasons. The main and obvious difference is that filaments (plural) were found. There was just a consistent effort to get better and better results. Secondly not only has nothing tried with RNA chains so far had any success whatsoever, the search has already been more thorough than the search for filaments. Expectations that there is yet something to try that makes any sense is obviously insane. Whether people are receptive to my god we might never know since I haven't told many people what it is, and have no plans to do that.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jan 29, 2019 12:48:21 GMT
That's nice. However it has nothing to do with your arguments against me, here or anywhere else. Yes it does, shit for brains. You haven't backed up so much as a single one of your scientific claims with a citation from scientific literature. I have. That's the only point I was making. Although no "scientific" papers have made the same conclusion I have, there are plenty of experiments that provide the data I analyzed. The problem here is not a lack of data, it is a lack of analysis of the data. You have the same data I have, you are just not capable of analyzing it correctly or showing other data, obviously necessary, that disproves my analysis.
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Post by rizdek on Jan 29, 2019 14:32:36 GMT
Like I said, showing that life could develop naturally would not prove God didn't exist. Nor does failure of experiments to produce something that is sufficiently living from natural materials suggest God must exist. As far as trying things over and over to accomplish something, consider:
And that was just to get one little filament of material to burn continuously in a small glass bulb.
And, as for
" I have little interest in proving a god exists. Enough people believe sufficiently in and "fear" (are careful about) a god that there isn't much need for proof, and the people who do need it are not receptive anyway."
Yes, the vast majority of people believe in something they call God and for various reasons. God becomes a vague term that is malleable and molded into whatever someone wants it to be. But you realize that not all those definitions/descriptions are not the same as yours. So while you don't have to prove anything to get people to say they believe in God...whatever that means to them, you would be hard pressed and would likely fail to prove to them that YOUR specific version of God exists. The vast majority of people in the world would likely NOT be receptive to YOUR version of God.
When we say that the likelihood of RNA assembling itself from not alive to alive is like expecting a tornado to assemble an automobile atheists complain that the comparison is not fair, not analogous. I'm going to have to say that the light bulb filament argument utterly fails for many reasons. The main and obvious difference is that filaments (plural) were found. There was just a consistent effort to get better and better results. Secondly not only has nothing tried with RNA chains so far had any success whatsoever, the search has already been more thorough than the search for filaments. Expectations that there is yet something to try that makes any sense is obviously insane. Whether people are receptive to my god we might never know since I haven't told many people what it is, and have no plans to do that. OF course RNA would not "assemble itself" as in the individual atoms that would make up RNA just kind of "coming together" by swirling them in a petri dish. I don't think anyone who is studying this would ever imagine that to happen.
What they are imagining is that an RNA-like molecule would evolve from smaller molecules under certain conditions over a period of time.
The example of a tornado assembling an auto is a not a good example as presented. Imagine NOT that the goal is for an entire auto or jet or whatever assembling itself, but that all steel components aare attracted to magnets. It would not be surprising that swirling steel objects about in an area with magnets would result in the steel eventually connecting and....and this is the important part...sticking TO the magnets as the swirling continues. I imagine atoms and molecules as being selectively attractive to other atoms/molecules in a manner that might be simulated or represented by selectively magnetic metals. It is that regular and predictable way in which they tend to bind with each other in certain ways but not in other ways that leads to more complexity. Add to the "tornado in a junk yard" analogy other selective processes like various sized and shaped openings in a matrix that would only allow certain kinds of items through, eventually you'd have small round objects in one place, larger square object elsewhere and other oddly shaped objects in other places. Then swirl them again and depend on the regular ways in which they combine and you'd eventually get standard and repeatable chains of components. THEN those repeatable chains of components undergo other selective processes and eventually you'd have complex structures that happened to start looking surprisingly regular and would enjoy a preferential benefit due to their shapes and composition. Of course they'd still not look like autos, because humans needed autos to look the way they did for an intended purpose. But the objects forming naturally don't have to serve anyone's purpose, they just have to be able to replicate themselves.
And the example of the light bulb was to show that it took 3000 attempts to achieve something as simple as on material that would burn long enough to work as the glowing element in an electric light bulb. And yes, they've found other ways, but each with a long series of attempts and failures. In each case, before they solved the problem...the problem had not been solved. If they had stopped at 100 or 1000 or even 2900 attempts they may have left assuming it was impossible. And again, it is important to emphasize that this was just to get some material to glow long enough to create a dependable light source. IE a very simple goal.
With simulating life, it would be a much more complex goal and would require either a lucky breakthrough or a proportionately longer time to accomplish, if it could be accomplished. And it's not certain that it could because I doubt we'll ever know the conditions that existed where life might have formed in early earth. But the work at Scripps institute and at Harvard is likely to be the most promising. (And, I present these sites NOT to convince you Arlon, but for other's looking on.)
Another example would be if you took a flat horizontal surface and dumped billions of randomly shaped marbles on it with a hole on one side. If you simply swirled the flat surface about (tornado) you might expect some of the spheres to eventually, essentially by chance to find their way into that hole. And you could assume that only spheres that were small enough to get through would end up on the other side of the partition. Not too selective, right? But add to that the thought that the partition had lots of varying sized holes. Still, swirling the marbles about would separate them out somewhat, in that only small ones would go through the small holes, but alas they would also go through the larger holes. And even then, only by "chance" would the marbles ever reach the side that had the holes. But add to that a slightly sloping floor. Still not much difference except that all the spheres would, on their own and quite naturally roll toward the wall with the openings. Eventually most of the marbles would be against the perforated side and many many more would move through the holes which would selectively allow smaller objects, but not larger ones. Still...smaller ones could get through the larger holes. But ever so slightly tip the surface such that the spheres roll first to one side then roll along the wall reaching the smallest hole first, then larger ones in a sequence. That would do an excellent job of sorting out the smaller from the larger marbles. Still no particular intelligence needed, just gravity and different size openings. And that represents how different conditions would sort out different atoms and molecules naturally. Add to that a further selective process of adding the concept that each sphere is selectively attracted to certain other spheres. Still no particular intelligent design, just spheres behaving naturally. This could lead to interesting compositions that would never have formed just by the tornado style swirling...but would still occur with no intelligent design needed.
Consider that the presumption is that not only are we assuming there was hundreds of millions of years, but that molecular combinations and recombinations occurred in untold trillions of various compartments under trillions of conditions at probably millions of times per second and all following standard and regular ways in which atoms and molecules combine. So the fact that they've been studying this, what? A few decades, maybe a hundred years in a handful of labs around the world and still haven't hit on a way is meaningless. What is interesting is that they seem to be making progress. This leads me to believe it is very much possible they'll hit on some way in which these long chained molecules could form and replicate and eventually produce something akin to RNA.
But again, for the lurker, even if they manage to create bona fide complex entities that qualify in every way as life, it still wouldn't prove that God didn't create the universe in just the right way that it COULD produce life naturally and it still wouldn't mean they found the way life actually did form, IF it formed naturally. Also, they might manage to put together such "living" entities, but it still could be that a God of some sort did actually start the life on earth as we know it.
IOW, successful experiments wouldn't prove anything OTHER THAN it might be possible for life to have formed naturlally...NO STRIKE THAT. Given that God could still manipulate experiments, even if they created something that qualified in every way as life, the theist could still claim God "did it again."
By the same token, they may study this for centuries...millennia and never find a way to get something that qualifies as life started. That would not prove it could not have happened.
But and this is a big but, whatever they discover, even if it is bona fide living entities that look and behave exactly like primitive cells/bacteria and do it from scratch...ie putting the right components in the beaker at the right time to simulate possible selective environmental conditions, you can bet there'll be someone or some group moving the goal posts to make their story still come out right.
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Post by faustus5 on Jan 29, 2019 17:54:41 GMT
Although no "scientific" papers have made the same conclusion I have, there are plenty of experiments that provide the data I analyzed. Then cite them. No, the issue is that scientists analyze their data correctly, whereas you instead draw unwarranted conclusions based on your ridiculous, idiotic superstitions--conclusions that do not logically follow from any data, anywhere, which is why one never finds respected mainstream scientists saying any of the bullshit you post here.
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Post by goz on Jan 29, 2019 19:49:31 GMT
When we say that the likelihood of RNA assembling itself from not alive to alive is like expecting a tornado to assemble an automobile atheists complain that the comparison is not fair, not analogous. I'm going to have to say that the light bulb filament argument utterly fails for many reasons. The main and obvious difference is that filaments (plural) were found. There was just a consistent effort to get better and better results. Secondly not only has nothing tried with RNA chains so far had any success whatsoever, the search has already been more thorough than the search for filaments. Expectations that there is yet something to try that makes any sense is obviously insane. Whether people are receptive to my god we might never know since I haven't told many people what it is, and have no plans to do that. OF course RNA would not "assemble itself" as in the individual atoms that would make up RNA just kind of "coming together" by swirling them in a petri dish. I don't think anyone who is studying this would ever imagine that to happen.
What they are imagining is that an RNA-like molecule would evolve from smaller molecules under certain conditions over a period of time.
The example of a tornado assembling an auto is a not a good example as presented. Imagine NOT that the goal is for an entire auto or jet or whatever assembling itself, but that all steel components aare attracted to magnets. It would not be surprising that swirling steel objects about in an area with magnets would result in the steel eventually connecting and....and this is the important part...sticking TO the magnets as the swirling continues. I imagine atoms and molecules as being selectively attractive to other atoms/molecules in a manner that might be simulated or represented by selectively magnetic metals. It is that regular and predictable way in which they tend to bind with each other in certain ways but not in other ways that leads to more complexity. Add to the "tornado in a junk yard" analogy other selective processes like various sized and shaped openings in a matrix that would only allow certain kinds of items through, eventually you'd have small round objects in one place, larger square object elsewhere and other oddly shaped objects in other places. Then swirl them again and depend on the regular ways in which they combine and you'd eventually get standard and repeatable chains of components. THEN those repeatable chains of components undergo other selective processes and eventually you'd have complex structures that happened to start looking surprisingly regular and would enjoy a preferential benefit due to their shapes and composition. Of course they'd still not look like autos, because humans needed autos to look the way they did for an intended purpose. But the objects forming naturally don't have to serve anyone's purpose, they just have to be able to replicate themselves.
And the example of the light bulb was to show that it took 3000 attempts to achieve something as simple as on material that would burn long enough to work as the glowing element in an electric light bulb. And yes, they've found other ways, but each with a long series of attempts and failures. In each case, before they solved the problem...the problem had not been solved. If they had stopped at 100 or 1000 or even 2900 attempts they may have left assuming it was impossible. And again, it is important to emphasize that this was just to get some material to glow long enough to create a dependable light source. IE a very simple goal.
With simulating life, it would be a much more complex goal and would require either a lucky breakthrough or a proportionately longer time to accomplish, if it could be accomplished. And it's not certain that it could because I doubt we'll ever know the conditions that existed where life might have formed in early earth. But the work at Scripps institute and at Harvard is likely to be the most promising. (And, I present these sites NOT to convince you Arlon, but for other's looking on.)
Another example would be if you took a flat horizontal surface and dumped billions of randomly shaped marbles on it with a hole on one side. If you simply swirled the flat surface about (tornado) you might expect some of the spheres to eventually, essentially by chance to find their way into that hole. And you could assume that only spheres that were small enough to get through would end up on the other side of the partition. Not too selective, right? But add to that the thought that the partition had lots of varying sized holes. Still, swirling the marbles about would separate them out somewhat, in that only small ones would go through the small holes, but alas they would also go through the larger holes. And even then, only by "chance" would the marbles ever reach the side that had the holes. But add to that a slightly sloping floor. Still not much difference except that all the spheres would, on their own and quite naturally roll toward the wall with the openings. Eventually most of the marbles would be against the perforated side and many many more would move through the holes which would selectively allow smaller objects, but not larger ones. Still...smaller ones could get through the larger holes. But ever so slightly tip the surface such that the spheres roll first to one side then roll along the wall reaching the smallest hole first, then larger ones in a sequence. That would do an excellent job of sorting out the smaller from the larger marbles. Still no particular intelligence needed, just gravity and different size openings. And that represents how different conditions would sort out different atoms and molecules naturally. Add to that a further selective process of adding the concept that each sphere is selectively attracted to certain other spheres. Still no particular intelligent design, just spheres behaving naturally. This could lead to interesting compositions that would never have formed just by the tornado style swirling...but would still occur with no intelligent design needed.
Consider that the presumption is that not only are we assuming there was hundreds of millions of years, but that molecular combinations and recombinations occurred in untold trillions of various compartments under trillions of conditions at probably millions of times per second and all following standard and regular ways in which atoms and molecules combine. So the fact that they've been studying this, what? A few decades, maybe a hundred years in a handful of labs around the world and still haven't hit on a way is meaningless. What is interesting is that they seem to be making progress. This leads me to believe it is very much possible they'll hit on some way in which these long chained molecules could form and replicate and eventually produce something akin to RNA.
But again, for the lurker, even if they manage to create bona fide complex entities that qualify in every way as life, it still wouldn't prove that God didn't create the universe in just the right way that it COULD produce life naturally and it still wouldn't mean they found the way life actually did form, IF it formed naturally. Also, they might manage to put together such "living" entities, but it still could be that a God of some sort did actually start the life on earth as we know it.
IOW, successful experiments wouldn't prove anything OTHER THAN it might be possible for life to have formed naturlally...NO STRIKE THAT. Given that God could still manipulate experiments, even if they created something that qualified in every way as life, the theist could still claim God "did it again."
By the same token, they may study this for centuries...millennia and never find a way to get something that qualifies as life started. That would not prove it could not have happened.
But and this is a big but, whatever they discover, even if it is bona fide living entities that look and behave exactly like primitive cells/bacteria and do it from scratch...ie putting the right components in the beaker at the right time to simulate possible selective environmental conditions, you can bet there'll be someone or some group moving the goal posts to make their story still come out right.
I enjoyed this post very much butt you are wasting your time with Arlon. As Faustus pointed out, you will have lost him about the time his stupidity and stubbornness towards bullshit kicked in,
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Post by rizdek on Jan 29, 2019 19:59:11 GMT
OF course RNA would not "assemble itself" as in the individual atoms that would make up RNA just kind of "coming together" by swirling them in a petri dish. I don't think anyone who is studying this would ever imagine that to happen.
What they are imagining is that an RNA-like molecule would evolve from smaller molecules under certain conditions over a period of time.
The example of a tornado assembling an auto is a not a good example as presented. Imagine NOT that the goal is for an entire auto or jet or whatever assembling itself, but that all steel components aare attracted to magnets. It would not be surprising that swirling steel objects about in an area with magnets would result in the steel eventually connecting and....and this is the important part...sticking TO the magnets as the swirling continues. I imagine atoms and molecules as being selectively attractive to other atoms/molecules in a manner that might be simulated or represented by selectively magnetic metals. It is that regular and predictable way in which they tend to bind with each other in certain ways but not in other ways that leads to more complexity. Add to the "tornado in a junk yard" analogy other selective processes like various sized and shaped openings in a matrix that would only allow certain kinds of items through, eventually you'd have small round objects in one place, larger square object elsewhere and other oddly shaped objects in other places. Then swirl them again and depend on the regular ways in which they combine and you'd eventually get standard and repeatable chains of components. THEN those repeatable chains of components undergo other selective processes and eventually you'd have complex structures that happened to start looking surprisingly regular and would enjoy a preferential benefit due to their shapes and composition. Of course they'd still not look like autos, because humans needed autos to look the way they did for an intended purpose. But the objects forming naturally don't have to serve anyone's purpose, they just have to be able to replicate themselves.
And the example of the light bulb was to show that it took 3000 attempts to achieve something as simple as on material that would burn long enough to work as the glowing element in an electric light bulb. And yes, they've found other ways, but each with a long series of attempts and failures. In each case, before they solved the problem...the problem had not been solved. If they had stopped at 100 or 1000 or even 2900 attempts they may have left assuming it was impossible. And again, it is important to emphasize that this was just to get some material to glow long enough to create a dependable light source. IE a very simple goal.
With simulating life, it would be a much more complex goal and would require either a lucky breakthrough or a proportionately longer time to accomplish, if it could be accomplished. And it's not certain that it could because I doubt we'll ever know the conditions that existed where life might have formed in early earth. But the work at Scripps institute and at Harvard is likely to be the most promising. (And, I present these sites NOT to convince you Arlon, but for other's looking on.)
Another example would be if you took a flat horizontal surface and dumped billions of randomly shaped marbles on it with a hole on one side. If you simply swirled the flat surface about (tornado) you might expect some of the spheres to eventually, essentially by chance to find their way into that hole. And you could assume that only spheres that were small enough to get through would end up on the other side of the partition. Not too selective, right? But add to that the thought that the partition had lots of varying sized holes. Still, swirling the marbles about would separate them out somewhat, in that only small ones would go through the small holes, but alas they would also go through the larger holes. And even then, only by "chance" would the marbles ever reach the side that had the holes. But add to that a slightly sloping floor. Still not much difference except that all the spheres would, on their own and quite naturally roll toward the wall with the openings. Eventually most of the marbles would be against the perforated side and many many more would move through the holes which would selectively allow smaller objects, but not larger ones. Still...smaller ones could get through the larger holes. But ever so slightly tip the surface such that the spheres roll first to one side then roll along the wall reaching the smallest hole first, then larger ones in a sequence. That would do an excellent job of sorting out the smaller from the larger marbles. Still no particular intelligence needed, just gravity and different size openings. And that represents how different conditions would sort out different atoms and molecules naturally. Add to that a further selective process of adding the concept that each sphere is selectively attracted to certain other spheres. Still no particular intelligent design, just spheres behaving naturally. This could lead to interesting compositions that would never have formed just by the tornado style swirling...but would still occur with no intelligent design needed.
Consider that the presumption is that not only are we assuming there was hundreds of millions of years, but that molecular combinations and recombinations occurred in untold trillions of various compartments under trillions of conditions at probably millions of times per second and all following standard and regular ways in which atoms and molecules combine. So the fact that they've been studying this, what? A few decades, maybe a hundred years in a handful of labs around the world and still haven't hit on a way is meaningless. What is interesting is that they seem to be making progress. This leads me to believe it is very much possible they'll hit on some way in which these long chained molecules could form and replicate and eventually produce something akin to RNA.
But again, for the lurker, even if they manage to create bona fide complex entities that qualify in every way as life, it still wouldn't prove that God didn't create the universe in just the right way that it COULD produce life naturally and it still wouldn't mean they found the way life actually did form, IF it formed naturally. Also, they might manage to put together such "living" entities, but it still could be that a God of some sort did actually start the life on earth as we know it.
IOW, successful experiments wouldn't prove anything OTHER THAN it might be possible for life to have formed naturlally...NO STRIKE THAT. Given that God could still manipulate experiments, even if they created something that qualified in every way as life, the theist could still claim God "did it again."
By the same token, they may study this for centuries...millennia and never find a way to get something that qualifies as life started. That would not prove it could not have happened.
But and this is a big but, whatever they discover, even if it is bona fide living entities that look and behave exactly like primitive cells/bacteria and do it from scratch...ie putting the right components in the beaker at the right time to simulate possible selective environmental conditions, you can bet there'll be someone or some group moving the goal posts to make their story still come out right.
I enjoyed this post very much butt you are wasting your time with Arlon. As Faustus pointed out, you will have lost him about the time his stupidity and stubbornness towards bullshit kicked in, I don't write these for Arlon, I write them for people looking on. This is an incredibly fascinating issue/topic and I would love to learn both that they've discovered ways to engineer life in the lab here on earth and discovered life elsewhere...either somewhere in the galaxy or perhaps even on some other body IN our solar system. Good times!
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Post by general313 on Jan 29, 2019 20:06:22 GMT
Whether people are receptive to my god we might never know since I haven't told many people what it is, and have no plans to do that. You seem to have found a very nice gap for your incognito god. I hope he's comfortable in it.
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Post by goz on Jan 29, 2019 21:10:43 GMT
Whether people are receptive to my god we might never know since I haven't told many people what it is, and have no plans to do that. You seem to have found a very nice gap for your incognito god. I hope he's comfortable in it. .
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Post by Arlon10 on Jan 30, 2019 0:15:32 GMT
Whether people are receptive to my god we might never know since I haven't told many people what it is, and have no plans to do that. You seem to have found a very nice gap for your incognito god. I hope he's comfortable in it. My god takes care of himself well enough.
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Post by rizdek on Jan 30, 2019 1:10:12 GMT
Whether people are receptive to my god we might never know since I haven't told many people what it is, and have no plans to do that. You seem to have found a very nice gap for your incognito god. I hope he's comfortable in it. Small gods fit into small gaps.
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