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Post by Vassaggo on Feb 1, 2019 14:45:42 GMT
One thing Disney+ needs to learn from Netflix is maybe change up the tone a bit. All 5 of the Netflix shows tone is almost exactly the same. Gritty, self flagellating, guilt stricken and self destructive works well, but maybe not have all the shows should have that.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Feb 1, 2019 14:52:48 GMT
One thing Disney+ needs to learn from Netflix is maybe change up the tone a bit. All 5 of the Netflix shows tone is almost exactly the same. Gritty, self flagellating, guilt stricken and self destructive works well, but maybe not have all the shows should have that. Agreed, though I think the reason they all ended up doing it was to show they could do more with the characters if they don't have to worry about a PG-13 rating. I thought the tone was perfect for Daredevil and Jessica Jones but Luke Cage and Iron Fist should've been more 'fun.'
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Post by Vassaggo on Feb 1, 2019 15:05:40 GMT
One thing Disney+ needs to learn from Netflix is maybe change up the tone a bit. All 5 of the Netflix shows tone is almost exactly the same. Gritty, self flagellating, guilt stricken and self destructive works well, but maybe not have all the shows should have that. Agreed, though I think the reason they all ended up doing it was to show they could do more with the characters if they don't have to worry about a PG-13 rating. I thought the tone was perfect for Daredevil and Jessica Jones but Luke Cage and Iron Fist should've been more 'fun.' Punisher too fits that mold. Going into those 3 yeah you expect guilt/self flagellation and grim darkness. I agree they feel in love with the idea that they could do things they couldn't in MCU-proper and the easiest way to go with R rated is to go for that tone. Edit: Well easiest to go into R Rating and not have Porky's style humor/raunchiness.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Feb 1, 2019 15:11:38 GMT
Agreed, though I think the reason they all ended up doing it was to show they could do more with the characters if they don't have to worry about a PG-13 rating. I thought the tone was perfect for Daredevil and Jessica Jones but Luke Cage and Iron Fist should've been more 'fun.' Punisher too fits that mold. Going into those 3 yeah you expect guilt/self flagellation and grim darkness. I agree they feel in love with the idea that they could do things they couldn't in MCU-proper and the easiest way to go with R rated is to go for that tone. Edit: Well easiest to go into R Rating and not have Porky's style humor/raunchiness. That was my other thought, that the alternative version of 'edginess for its own sake' would be Deadpool-style humor. It works for that character (but even then it gets stale pretty quick) but I don't want to go down that road with characters who aren't known for that stuff.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Feb 1, 2019 15:16:30 GMT
Agreed, though I think the reason they all ended up doing it was to show they could do more with the characters if they don't have to worry about a PG-13 rating. I thought the tone was perfect for Daredevil and Jessica Jones but Luke Cage and Iron Fist should've been more 'fun.' Punisher too fits that mold. Going into those 3 yeah you expect guilt/self flagellation and grim darkness. I agree they feel in love with the idea that they could do things they couldn't in MCU-proper and the easiest way to go with R rated is to go for that tone. Edit: Well easiest to go into R Rating and not have Porky's style humor/raunchiness. Punisher, Daredevil and Jessica Jones have always been darker characters with darker storylines. Luke Cage, on his own, has always dealt with the social problems associated with "inner city" life and, he became a more grim character once he moved into Jessica Jone's orbit. Even Iron Fist saw darker storylines and action in the "The Immortal..." It's hard to put a positive or light-hearted spin on, brainwashing, sex trafficking, rape, murder-for-hire, government conspiracies, ninja death-cults and the light. Netflix didn't fall in love with anything other than the source material (i.e., Marvel Knights renditions of the characters). Tonal variety for its own sake should not be a thing. If it supports the character that's another story.
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Post by Vassaggo on Feb 1, 2019 15:20:47 GMT
Punisher too fits that mold. Going into those 3 yeah you expect guilt/self flagellation and grim darkness. I agree they feel in love with the idea that they could do things they couldn't in MCU-proper and the easiest way to go with R rated is to go for that tone. Edit: Well easiest to go into R Rating and not have Porky's style humor/raunchiness. Punisher, Daredevil and Jessica Jones have always been darker characters with darker storylines. Luke Cage, on his own, has always dealt with the social problems associated with "inner city" life and, he became a more grim character once he moved into Jessica Jone's orbit. Even Iron Fist saw darker storylines and action in the "The Immortal..." It's hard to put a positive or light-hearted spin on, brainwashing, sex trafficking, rape, murder-for-hire, government conspiracies, ninja death-cults and the light. Netflix didn't fall in love with anything other than the source material (i.e., Marvel Knights renditions of the characters). Tonal variety for its own sake should not be a thing. If it supports the character that's another story. I guess my point was more business minded than artistic. We don't know the actual numbers because Netflix, but seems their was a marked slide when it came ratings/popularity. I think my point was maybe choose characters that leads to more variety of tone, not change tone of characters.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Feb 1, 2019 15:38:20 GMT
Punisher, Daredevil and Jessica Jones have always been darker characters with darker storylines. Luke Cage, on his own, has always dealt with the social problems associated with "inner city" life and, he became a more grim character once he moved into Jessica Jone's orbit. Even Iron Fist saw darker storylines and action in the "The Immortal..." It's hard to put a positive or light-hearted spin on, brainwashing, sex trafficking, rape, murder-for-hire, government conspiracies, ninja death-cults and the light. Netflix didn't fall in love with anything other than the source material (i.e., Marvel Knights renditions of the characters). Tonal variety for its own sake should not be a thing. If it supports the character that's another story. I guess my point was more business minded than artistic. We don't know the actual numbers because Netflix, but seems their was a marked slide when it came ratings/popularity. I think my point was maybe choose characters that leads to more variety of tone, not change tone of characters. If the ratings fell off by Netflix staying relatively faithful to the characters, I can live with that (even if they can't). The solution likely isn't a tonal shift so much as it is addressing shorter attention spans. Disney should focus on single-season, eight to nine episode, prestige format TV shows about different Marvel characters. There should not be second or third seasons no matter how much fans cry for them - their tears are of the crocodile variety. The problem is there is too much content, and people (especially millennials) become bored extremely fast. Television is changing, successful multi-season arcs are becoming rarer and rarer. They have to be earned and, once you do have an audience's attention and trust, you've got go above and beyond to keep it. The NEW WAY should be "limited series." Better to keep them guessing and wanting more than to degrade the brand over time with content no one seems to have the time or inclination to watch. Successful shows like Stranger Things are runaway hits not because they're exceptionally original or even all that good. What that show, in particular, has done is to build a cult around its stars, romanticized nostalgia, and wild conspiracy theories. The show is just as famous for how and who makes it as it is for its content.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Feb 1, 2019 15:46:29 GMT
Of course all of these characters have had different tones in different comic runs over the last 50 years. That's why I avoid pointing to the comics to support opinions. You can literally find a comic to support absolutely every possible point of view.
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Post by kuatorises on Feb 1, 2019 15:52:57 GMT
We got this covered.com? This seems like a reliable source to some of you?
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Post by Lord Death Man on Feb 1, 2019 15:53:20 GMT
Of course all of these characters have had different tones in different comic runs over the last 50 years. That's why I avoid pointing to the comics to support opinions. You can literally find a comic to support absolutely every possible point of view. This is true but, if you limit your scope to the last decade or two, there has been very little sunshine for any of those characters. That’s likely why Netflix/Marvel agreed on them.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Feb 1, 2019 15:53:59 GMT
We got this covered.com? This seems like a reliable source to some of you? Not to me.
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Post by Vassaggo on Feb 1, 2019 15:54:56 GMT
I guess my point was more business minded than artistic. We don't know the actual numbers because Netflix, but seems their was a marked slide when it came ratings/popularity. I think my point was maybe choose characters that leads to more variety of tone, not change tone of characters. If the ratings fell off by Netflix staying relatively faithful to the characters, I can live with that (even if they can't). The solution likely isn't a tonal shift so much as it is addressing shorter attention spans. Disney should focus on single-season, eight to nine episode, prestige format TV shows about different Marvel characters. There should not be second or third seasons no matter how much fans cry for them - their tears are of the crocodile variety. The problem is there is too much content, and people (especially millennials) become bored extremely fast. Television is changing, successful multi-season arcs are becoming rarer and rarer. They have to be earned and, once you do have an audience's attention and trust, you've got go above and beyond to keep it. The NEW WAY should be "limited series." Better to keep them guessing and wanting more than to degrade the brand over time with content no one seems to have the time or inclination to watch. Successful shows like Stranger Things are runaway hits not because they're exceptionally original or even all that good. What that show, in particular, has done is to build a cult around its stars, romanticized nostalgia, and wild conspiracy theories. The show is just as famous for how and who makes it as it is for its content. If it could be done I wouldn't mind 1 season one offs that main integral characters could be missing for whole seasons and come back later. Not haphazardly but planned. So the shows aren't about specific characters. Not a Wolverine Show or a Gambit Show or Loki show. The show is the main star and the characters are what change. I just think that Netflix's business mistake was to put 5 very similar toned shows on back to back to back. Especially for binge watching it can be a grind for some consumers.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Feb 1, 2019 16:02:34 GMT
Of course all of these characters have had different tones in different comic runs over the last 50 years. That's why I avoid pointing to the comics to support opinions. You can literally find a comic to support absolutely every possible point of view. This is true but, if you limit your scope to the last decade or two, there has been very little sunshine for any of those characters. That’s likely why Netflix/Marvel agreed on them. Unfortunately for me, I consider comics made in the last decade or two to be nothing but crap remakes and bastardizations of characters created by much more talented people.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Feb 1, 2019 16:29:17 GMT
If the ratings fell off by Netflix staying relatively faithful to the characters, I can live with that (even if they can't). The solution likely isn't a tonal shift so much as it is addressing shorter attention spans. Disney should focus on single-season, eight to nine episode, prestige format TV shows about different Marvel characters. There should not be second or third seasons no matter how much fans cry for them - their tears are of the crocodile variety. The problem is there is too much content, and people (especially millennials) become bored extremely fast. Television is changing, successful multi-season arcs are becoming rarer and rarer. They have to be earned and, once you do have an audience's attention and trust, you've got go above and beyond to keep it. The NEW WAY should be "limited series." Better to keep them guessing and wanting more than to degrade the brand over time with content no one seems to have the time or inclination to watch. Successful shows like Stranger Things are runaway hits not because they're exceptionally original or even all that good. What that show, in particular, has done is to build a cult around its stars, romanticized nostalgia, and wild conspiracy theories. The show is just as famous for how and who makes it as it is for its content. If it could be done I wouldn't mind 1 season one offs that main integral characters could be missing for whole seasons and come back later. Not haphazardly but planned. So the shows aren't about specific characters. Not a Wolverine Show or a Gambit Show or Loki show. The show is the main star and the characters are what change. I just think that Netflix's business mistake was to put 5 very similar toned shows on back to back to back. Especially for binge watching it can be a grind for some consumers. The decision may not have been right for Netflix but, in the long run, I think it was good for Marvel. Marvel, as we all know, isn't regarded for its variety in tone across mediums. They are, by now, well regarded for creating a shared universe populated by many characters. Luke, Danny, Jessica, Frank, and Matt all contribute to that legend. I guess what I'm asking for is an anthology series which makes the Marvel Universe the central character and rotates the heroes, villains and locations per season. Heroes and villains can be revisited in future archs based on popular demand. Marvel's future as the dominant force in cinemas will come to an end - probably sooner than a lot of us want to believe possible. 2018 was a peak year for them; there is no place to go but down. They will produce one or more flops. It's inevitable. The future of Marvel live-action content is streaming. I just saw the Hobbs and Shaw trailer. The villain is a superhumanly-augmented Idris Elba. We are reaching a tipping point. And let's be clear about Netflix's business goals. They are chiefly concerned with subscribers. Ratings are things that you, myself and other third parties obsess over, the gold standard for a show on Netflix is can it attract new subscribers. Even if the Marvel shows maintained their "ratings," without contributing to adding new subscribers, they'd still be seen as a failure (or loss leader at best) in Netflix's worldview.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Feb 1, 2019 16:30:18 GMT
This is true but, if you limit your scope to the last decade or two, there has been very little sunshine for any of those characters. That’s likely why Netflix/Marvel agreed on them. Unfortunately for me, I consider comics made in the last decade or two to be nothing but crap remakes and bastardizations of characters created by much more talented people. You're not entirely wrong, brother.
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Post by Vassaggo on Feb 1, 2019 17:09:58 GMT
If it could be done I wouldn't mind 1 season one offs that main integral characters could be missing for whole seasons and come back later. Not haphazardly but planned. So the shows aren't about specific characters. Not a Wolverine Show or a Gambit Show or Loki show. The show is the main star and the characters are what change. I just think that Netflix's business mistake was to put 5 very similar toned shows on back to back to back. Especially for binge watching it can be a grind for some consumers. The decision may not have been right for Netflix but, in the long run, I think it was good for Marvel. Marvel, as we all know, isn't regarded for its variety in tone across mediums. They are, by now, well regarded for creating a shared universe populated by many characters. Luke, Danny, Jessica, Frank, and Matt all contribute to that legend. I guess what I'm asking for is an anthology series which makes the Marvel Universe the central character and rotates the heroes, villains and locations per season. Heroes and villains can be revisited in future archs based on popular demand. Marvel's future as the dominant force in cinemas will come to an end - probably sooner than a lot of us want to believe possible. 2018 was a peak year for them; there is no place to go but down. They will produce one or more flops. It's inevitable. The future of Marvel live-action content is streaming. I just saw the Hobbs and Shaw trailer. The villain is a superhumanly-augmented Idris Elba. We are reaching a tipping point. And let's be clear about Netflix's business goals. They are chiefly concerned with subscribers. Ratings are things that you, myself and other third parties obsess over, the gold standard for a show on Netflix is can it attract new subscribers. Even if the Marvel shows maintained their "ratings," without contributing to adding new subscribers, they'd still be seen as a failure (or loss leader at best) in Netflix's worldview. Funny when I said the 1 off seasons where the Show is the star I actually used the term Anthology, but couldn't convince myself it was the correct term. I agree that adding the Netflix shows did help the overall brand. It adding a missing piece to the puzzle. I think they may have just gone to much to fast. Or at least went whole hog on the one tone. I agree with you on 2 points in here. I posted this to a friend... "...Because what the Fast and The Furious series needs, which mind you started out as a street racing criminal story, is not just to become more Mission Impossible/James Bond but to introduce Super-Humans." And Marvel Studios/MCU is due for a contraction. Not just popularity but in scope. You can't just ramp up stakes and scope every fucking movie and retain the same momentum. That's why I like things like Ant-Man/Ant-man and Wasp and to certain extent Doc Strange. Both have could have cosmic or Earth Shattering Consequences, but told on a smaller scale. That's why I'm all for a Black Widow movie. You could have dire consequences but told on a small scale. One of the reasons I am for waiting to use X-men is Marvel could use the lull to make the introduction seem more bombastic. Instead of using them as a prop to stop the inevitable decline. I'm torn with FF. I think their reputation is beaten up enough that they could use them with out exploiting the look we have control of our product again. Plus I really want to see Dr. Doom used as a baddie. Also I wouldn't mind if FF was used for Disney+. Get to know them as a family in long form story telling then use them sparingly in the movies. Hell, I'm not even sure if Marvel gets them back fully. Didn't Fox Lease the rights from Constatin?
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Post by Vassaggo on Feb 1, 2019 17:18:05 GMT
If it could be done I wouldn't mind 1 season one offs that main integral characters could be missing for whole seasons and come back later. Not haphazardly but planned. So the shows aren't about specific characters. Not a Wolverine Show or a Gambit Show or Loki show. The show is the main star and the characters are what change. I just think that Netflix's business mistake was to put 5 very similar toned shows on back to back to back. Especially for binge watching it can be a grind for some consumers. The decision may not have been right for Netflix but, in the long run, I think it was good for Marvel. Marvel, as we all know, isn't regarded for its variety in tone across mediums. They are, by now, well regarded for creating a shared universe populated by many characters. Luke, Danny, Jessica, Frank, and Matt all contribute to that legend. I guess what I'm asking for is an anthology series which makes the Marvel Universe the central character and rotates the heroes, villains and locations per season. Heroes and villains can be revisited in future archs based on popular demand. Marvel's future as the dominant force in cinemas will come to an end - probably sooner than a lot of us want to believe possible. 2018 was a peak year for them; there is no place to go but down. They will produce one or more flops. It's inevitable. The future of Marvel live-action content is streaming. I just saw the Hobbs and Shaw trailer. The villain is a superhumanly-augmented Idris Elba. We are reaching a tipping point. And let's be clear about Netflix's business goals. They are chiefly concerned with subscribers. Ratings are things that you, myself and other third parties obsess over, the gold standard for a show on Netflix is can it attract new subscribers. Even if the Marvel shows maintained their "ratings," without contributing to adding new subscribers, they'd still be seen as a failure (or loss leader at best) in Netflix's worldview. Also I never understood the infinity growth model of business. Seems like a pyramid scheme. Especially when dealing with attracting more users or subscribers. There is a finite number of people on the planet and yes new customers are born everyday, but come on. There is an inevitable plateau that the growth model seems to vehemently deny.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Feb 1, 2019 17:35:08 GMT
Punisher too fits that mold. Going into those 3 yeah you expect guilt/self flagellation and grim darkness. I agree they feel in love with the idea that they could do things they couldn't in MCU-proper and the easiest way to go with R rated is to go for that tone. Edit: Well easiest to go into R Rating and not have Porky's style humor/raunchiness. Punisher, Daredevil and Jessica Jones have always been darker characters with darker storylines. Luke Cage, on his own, has always dealt with the social problems associated with "inner city" life and, he became a more grim character once he moved into Jessica Jone's orbit. Even Iron Fist saw darker storylines and action in the "The Immortal..." It's hard to put a positive or light-hearted spin on, brainwashing, sex trafficking, rape, murder-for-hire, government conspiracies, ninja death-cults and the light. Netflix didn't fall in love with anything other than the source material (i.e., Marvel Knights renditions of the characters). Tonal variety for its own sake should not be a thing. If it supports the character that's another story. Iron Fist should've focused more on the supernatural aspects of the story instead of the Meachum family dynamic. It could've been incredibly dark and much more interesting. If they didn't want to give it a budget, at least make it a fun little homage to old kung fu movies. Anything would've been better than what we ended up with. Iron Fist comics are usually highly entertaining (at least to me), the show was a real slog. I don't consider Luke Cage to be as dark a show as JJ or Daredevil, I actually think the tone for that show is spot on.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Feb 1, 2019 17:57:17 GMT
The decision may not have been right for Netflix but, in the long run, I think it was good for Marvel. Marvel, as we all know, isn't regarded for its variety in tone across mediums. They are, by now, well regarded for creating a shared universe populated by many characters. Luke, Danny, Jessica, Frank, and Matt all contribute to that legend. I guess what I'm asking for is an anthology series which makes the Marvel Universe the central character and rotates the heroes, villains and locations per season. Heroes and villains can be revisited in future archs based on popular demand. Marvel's future as the dominant force in cinemas will come to an end - probably sooner than a lot of us want to believe possible. 2018 was a peak year for them; there is no place to go but down. They will produce one or more flops. It's inevitable. The future of Marvel live-action content is streaming. I just saw the Hobbs and Shaw trailer. The villain is a superhumanly-augmented Idris Elba. We are reaching a tipping point. And let's be clear about Netflix's business goals. They are chiefly concerned with subscribers. Ratings are things that you, myself and other third parties obsess over, the gold standard for a show on Netflix is can it attract new subscribers. Even if the Marvel shows maintained their "ratings," without contributing to adding new subscribers, they'd still be seen as a failure (or loss leader at best) in Netflix's worldview. Also I never understood the infinity growth model of business. Seems like a pyramid scheme. Especially when dealing with attracting more users or subscribers. There is a finite number of people on the planet and yes new customers are born everyday, but come on. There is an inevitable plateau that the growth model seems to vehemently deny. That's modern-day capitalism; quarter-over-quarter growth - forever. You're only as good as your last earnings sheet. "Flat" is the new slipping and, the plateau you speak of is the consumption of every natural resource on the planet until there is nothing left. I hope we get to see an X-Men film (without Wolverine) within the next three to five years. I think the secret to success for the X-Men in the MCU is to start small and to treat the Mutant populace as an emerging species. We could also give the "fear and hatred" mantra a (desperately needed) rest. If the X-Men debuted on the world scene tomorrow as superheroes - they'd be well received by the human populace. At a glance, they'd be not much different than the Avengers. It is only after the world learns that those optic blasts are a random gift of birth that the world populace would feel threatened. The X-Men, in their first incarnation, all looked like human beings. They should start out as heroes who, over time, get outed as freaks of nature and then an imminent threat to human existence. Marvel needs to embrace what Stan was trying to convey when he created the team. The X-Men are strange and weird. Encoded in their genetic makeup is an evolutionary mystery that could teach us about the world and ourselves. Not all mutations are beneficial or useful in combat. In fact, I would imagine that the vast majority of them aren't. I'd like to see an origin story with the original team pitted against someone like a modernized version of the Vanisher or Mimic. A traumatized mutant villain who has been poked and prodded and, finally decides to use their powers to act out their own sadistic revenge would be a nice change. I don't want to see mutants all acting on two sides of the same ideological argument. Smaller stakes and more intimate character studies are what I'm after. What if the Vanisher could vanish things other than his/herself? Where do they go? What kind of pain and trauma would that power have caused if you unintentionally banished a friend or family member to nowhere - forever? Mutancy has to be examined more closely as both astonishing gift and horrifying nightmare.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Feb 1, 2019 18:29:27 GMT
We got this covered.com? This seems like a reliable source to some of you? Not to me.
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