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Post by Rey Kahuka on Feb 19, 2019 13:11:21 GMT
You guys should know that while I'm a fan, I'm not a total homer. Hell, I even started publicly criticizing Belichick for the first time this season. So when I ask this question, it comes with the understanding that it's possible they never win another Super Bowl. I'm not using this as some setup to argue they're going to win three more titles or anything.
My question to you is, at this point, when will you believe the Patriots are dead? In 2014 they were 2-2 after a total beatdown in KC and some media members were actually talking about a QB change. The Patriots won the Super Bowl that season. In Super Bowl LI, they were down 28-3 in the 3rd qtr. They won that game. This past season, they started off 1-2, had serious issues on both sides of the ball and lost to 5 non-playoff teams. Not only did they win the Super Bowl, they beat the Chiefs in KC to even get there. Again, this isn't me stroking the Pats, I'm uncovering a theme here. The Patriots just won't die; until they do. It has to happen sometime, right?
When will you write them off? 0-4? 0-6? At this point do they have to be mathematically eliminated from playoff contention before you believe they're dead? Down 16 points on the road on wildcard weekend? When will you believe they're truly dead?
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Feb 19, 2019 13:19:34 GMT
It’s not so much their in-season record. To me they’re not dead until Brady retires. Until then they have to be considered among the favorites every year. I mean eventually he’ll either decline or retire by choice to do whatever it is he does with Gisele, but until then they can’t be written off.
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Post by Aj_June on Feb 19, 2019 13:23:05 GMT
The important thing is not to mix the timeline. When you talk about the future success of Pats then you are essentially looking at two different time periods. Very very near future and generations that come after the very very near future. Because Tom Brady is only a human (although immensely good at what he does) he can't go on playing forever. So let's say Tom plays 2 more seasons. I would say that as of now Pats will have a considerable chance to win 1 of those 2 SB. But what about the next generation? You have a great coach and maybe he is able to create a good competitive team of a totally different kind? Well, that can happen. Although anyone should understand the probability of that happening. For a team with average Coach, you would probably think about 5-7% chance of creating a new team that can dominate. May be you raise that probability to 15-20% for Bill.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Feb 19, 2019 13:29:17 GMT
It’s not so much their in-season record. To me they’re not dead until Brady retires. Until then they have to be considered among the favorites every year. I mean eventually he’ll either decline or retire by choice to do whatever it is he does with Gisele, but until then they can’t be written off. It's the conclusion I came to, they're always going to have a puncher's chance if Brady is out there. Even if he falls off a cliff mid-season or misses five games. You simply can't rule them out as long as Brady is an active player. They wouldn't be favorites to win the title if they're playing on the road on wildcard weekend, but the entire league would still be wondering, "Is this when they flip the switch?" Only the media windbags would be prognosticating Brady's doom because that's what brings attention to their show/column/whatever. As a Pats fan it's weird to consider. The end will come one day (maybe next year, who knows), but at this point we won't accept it until Brady retires. Eventually those talking heads will be right, we just won't believe them because he's defied expectations so many times already. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Feb 19, 2019 13:34:14 GMT
The important thing is not to mix the timeline. When you talk about the future success of Pats then you are essentially looking at two different time periods. Very very near future and generations that come after the very very near future. Because Tom Brady is only a human (although immensely good at what he does) he can't go on playing forever. So let's say Tom plays 2 more seasons. I would say that as of now Pats will have a considerable chance to win 1 of those 2 SB. But what about the next generation? You have a great coach and maybe he is able to create a good competitive team of a totally different kind? Well, that can happen. Although anyone should understand the probability of that happening. For a team with average Coach, you would probably think about 5-7% chance of creating a new team that can dominate. May be you raise that probability to 15-20% for Bill. That's basically what I meant; this particular dynasty. If Bill outlasts Brady here in NE and builds another winner in five years, it's not quite the same thing. It would certainly add to Bill's legacy, though as it stands he doesn't have a stellar record without Brady. Of course he does have a ton of championship experience as a HC now, so that has to count for something. |
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Post by sdm3 on Feb 19, 2019 14:12:17 GMT
As soon as their luck runs out. Dee Ford keeps his foot onside, Tom Brady throws his 3rd interception, game over. Patriots lose.
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Post by masterofallgoons on Feb 19, 2019 14:14:47 GMT
It’s not so much their in-season record. To me they’re not dead until Brady retires. Until then they have to be considered among the favorites every year. I mean eventually he’ll either decline or retire by choice to do whatever it is he does with Gisele, but until then they can’t be written off. It's the conclusion I came to, they're always going to have a puncher's chance if Brady is out there. Even if he falls off a cliff mid-season or misses five games. You simply can't rule them out as long as Brady is an active player. They wouldn't be favorites to win the title if they're playing on the road on wildcard weekend, but the entire league would still be wondering, "Is this when they flip the switch?" Only the media windbags would be prognosticating Brady's doom because that's what brings attention to their show/column/whatever. As a Pats fan it's weird to consider. The end will come one day (maybe next year, who knows), but at this point we won't accept it until Brady retires. Eventually those talking heads will be right, we just won't believe them because he's defied expectations so many times already. I assume they're the odds on favorite until Brady retires. The talking heads claiming it's the beginning of the end in Foxboro certainly exist every year, but does anyone actually take it seriously? Does this conversation exist seriously outside of Boston sports radio? |
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Feb 19, 2019 14:23:40 GMT
It’s not so much their in-season record. To me they’re not dead until Brady retires. Until then they have to be considered among the favorites every year. I mean eventually he’ll either decline or retire by choice to do whatever it is he does with Gisele, but until then they can’t be written off. It's the conclusion I came to, they're always going to have a puncher's chance if Brady is out there. Even if he falls off a cliff mid-season or misses five games. You simply can't rule them out as long as Brady is an active player. They wouldn't be favorites to win the title if they're playing on the road on wildcard weekend, but the entire league would still be wondering, "Is this when they flip the switch?" Only the media windbags would be prognosticating Brady's doom because that's what brings attention to their show/column/whatever. As a Pats fan it's weird to consider. The end will come one day (maybe next year, who knows), but at this point we won't accept it until Brady retires. Eventually those talking heads will be right, we just won't believe them because he's defied expectations so many times already. I look at Brady like an even more successful Derek Jeter. Jeter seemed like he was always there and always would be there right up until the day he was standing up there with Hannah getting his number retired or however they do it in NY. I imagine Brady’s final season to be statistically among the leaders but falling short of the parade. Like losing in the AFC Championship game. The next season’s QB will be someone who is presently in high school. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Feb 19, 2019 14:36:45 GMT
It's the conclusion I came to, they're always going to have a puncher's chance if Brady is out there. Even if he falls off a cliff mid-season or misses five games. You simply can't rule them out as long as Brady is an active player. They wouldn't be favorites to win the title if they're playing on the road on wildcard weekend, but the entire league would still be wondering, "Is this when they flip the switch?" Only the media windbags would be prognosticating Brady's doom because that's what brings attention to their show/column/whatever. As a Pats fan it's weird to consider. The end will come one day (maybe next year, who knows), but at this point we won't accept it until Brady retires. Eventually those talking heads will be right, we just won't believe them because he's defied expectations so many times already. I assume they're the odds on favorite until Brady retires. The talking heads claiming it's the beginning of the end in Foxboro certainly exist every year, but does anyone actually take it seriously? Does this conversation exist seriously outside of Boston sports radio? Probably not seriously. Boston media is notoriously negative so I don't pay much attention to them, anyway. Somebody made a great fan vid on youtube about this past season and it featured voiceovers from Kellerman, Stephan A., etc talking about how the Patriots were done. But as we all know, those guys are paid to say dumb shit so whatever. Still, heading into a season, or even a postseason I can understand your (and my own) faith in Brady. I think the point I was making though, was is there a breaking point to any particular season where you would say to yourself, "It's over for the Patriots." They've come back from the dead so many times that I'm wondering how bad any particular season would have to get before people thought that season (and probably the dynasty) was over. An 0-4 start? 6-6? Is there any point in a season before they've been mathematically eliminated that average fans ( real people- not hot take dipshits, internet trolls or jealous Steelers fans) start thinking the Pats are done? You'd have to see it before you believe it at this point. That's how I feel as a Pats fan and it's the vibe I'm getting from you guys as well. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Feb 19, 2019 14:46:37 GMT
As soon as their luck runs out. Dee Ford keeps his foot onside, Tom Brady throws his 3rd interception, game over. Patriots lose. It's a razor's edge between success and failure in this league, nobody knows that better than Pats fans. As they say, luck is where preparation meets opportunity. |
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Post by sdm3 on Feb 19, 2019 14:50:34 GMT
As soon as their luck runs out. Dee Ford keeps his foot onside, Tom Brady throws his 3rd interception, game over. Patriots lose. It's a razor's edge between success and failure in this league, nobody knows that better than Pats fans. As they say, luck is where preparation meets opportunity. Andrew Luck? |
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Feb 19, 2019 15:31:30 GMT
I assume they're the odds on favorite until Brady retires. The talking heads claiming it's the beginning of the end in Foxboro certainly exist every year, but does anyone actually take it seriously? Does this conversation exist seriously outside of Boston sports radio? Probably not seriously. Boston media is notoriously negative so I don't pay much attention to them, anyway. Somebody made a great fan vid on youtube about this past season and it featured voiceovers from Kellerman, Stephan A., etc talking about how the Patriots were done. But as we all know, those guys are paid to say dumb shit so whatever. Still, heading into a season, or even a postseason I can understand your (and my own) faith in Brady. I think the point I was making though, was is there a breaking point to any particular season where you would say to yourself, "It's over for the Patriots." They've come back from the dead so many times that I'm wondering how bad any particular season would have to get before people thought that season (and probably the dynasty) was over. An 0-4 start? 6-6? Is there any point in a season before they've been mathematically eliminated that average fans ( real people- not hot take dipshits, internet trolls or jealous Steelers fans) start thinking the Pats are done? You'd have to see it before you believe it at this point. That's how I feel as a Pats fan and it's the vibe I'm getting from you guys as well. In-season wise, to me they’re not dead until they’re mathematically eliminated, regardless of record. In week 16 if they’re 2-13 but the Dolphins, Bills, and Jets are all 1-14, in my book they have a chance to win the Super Bowl.* *provided that Brady is the QB. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Feb 19, 2019 15:56:33 GMT
It's a razor's edge between success and failure in this league, nobody knows that better than Pats fans. As they say, luck is where preparation meets opportunity. Andrew Luck? Not so far, but there's still time. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Feb 19, 2019 17:09:12 GMT
As soon as their luck runs out. Dee Ford keeps his foot onside, Tom Brady throws his 3rd interception, game over. Patriots lose. The OP just got owned! |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Feb 19, 2019 17:24:49 GMT
As soon as their luck runs out. Dee Ford keeps his foot onside, Tom Brady throws his 3rd interception, game over. Patriots lose. The OP just got owned! This is what I don't get about you. Can you be this stupid? If not, how is it funny to make yourself look this stupid? For this many years? You must have some kind of mental illness where you can't progress past the age of 12 or something. I hope you enjoyed making that nonsensical post as much as I enjoyed the Patriots sixth title.  |
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Post by masterofallgoons on Feb 19, 2019 19:51:38 GMT
Still, heading into a season, or even a postseason I can understand your (and my own) faith in Brady. I think the point I was making though, was is there a breaking point to any particular season where you would say to yourself, "It's over for the Patriots." They've come back from the dead so many times that I'm wondering how bad any particular season would have to get before people thought that season (and probably the dynasty) was over. An 0-4 start? 6-6? Is there any point in a season before they've been mathematically eliminated that average fans ( real people- not hot take dipshits, internet trolls or jealous Steelers fans) start thinking the Pats are done? You'd have to see it before you believe it at this point. That's how I feel as a Pats fan and it's the vibe I'm getting from you guys as well. When have they 'come back from the dead?' When they missed the playoffs the last time 10 years ago? They've never, since then when Brady was out for the year, been without a post season chance. They're never 'dead' in any season becuase no matter what their regular season looks like everyone knows they ought to be favored in any playoff game unless it's against the NFC East. Losing a game or 2 in the regular season hardly means it's all over. This is like the Yankees fans in the 90s freaking out when they would lose a a few games here and there. |
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Post by masterofallgoons on Feb 19, 2019 19:54:04 GMT
Probably not seriously. Boston media is notoriously negative so I don't pay much attention to them, anyway. Somebody made a great fan vid on youtube about this past season and it featured voiceovers from Kellerman, Stephan A., etc talking about how the Patriots were done. But as we all know, those guys are paid to say dumb shit so whatever. Still, heading into a season, or even a postseason I can understand your (and my own) faith in Brady. I think the point I was making though, was is there a breaking point to any particular season where you would say to yourself, "It's over for the Patriots." They've come back from the dead so many times that I'm wondering how bad any particular season would have to get before people thought that season (and probably the dynasty) was over. An 0-4 start? 6-6? Is there any point in a season before they've been mathematically eliminated that average fans ( real people- not hot take dipshits, internet trolls or jealous Steelers fans) start thinking the Pats are done? You'd have to see it before you believe it at this point. That's how I feel as a Pats fan and it's the vibe I'm getting from you guys as well. In-season wise, to me they’re not dead until they’re mathematically eliminated, regardless of record. In week 16 if they’re 2-13 but the Dolphins, Bills, and Jets are all 1-14, in my book they have a chance to win the Super Bowl.* *provided that Brady is the QB. The Jets, Dolphins, and Bills couldn't all be 1 and 14 since they all play each other twice and someone has to win those games (or tie). But perhaps those first rate franchises just might find a way. (Edit: that's also only 15 total games) |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Feb 19, 2019 20:50:10 GMT
Still, heading into a season, or even a postseason I can understand your (and my own) faith in Brady. I think the point I was making though, was is there a breaking point to any particular season where you would say to yourself, "It's over for the Patriots." They've come back from the dead so many times that I'm wondering how bad any particular season would have to get before people thought that season (and probably the dynasty) was over. An 0-4 start? 6-6? Is there any point in a season before they've been mathematically eliminated that average fans ( real people- not hot take dipshits, internet trolls or jealous Steelers fans) start thinking the Pats are done? You'd have to see it before you believe it at this point. That's how I feel as a Pats fan and it's the vibe I'm getting from you guys as well. When they missed the playoffs the last time 10 years ago? They've never, since then when Brady was out for the year, been without a post season chance. They're never 'dead' in any season becuase no matter what their regular season looks like everyone knows they ought to be favored in any playoff game unless it's against the NFC East. Losing a game or 2 in the regular season hardly means it's all over. This is like the Yankees fans in the 90s freaking out when they would lose a a few games here and there. Hyperbole on my part there, but I was referring to the instances I noted in my original post. Just when it looks like they're done, they come back. Down 28-3 in the second half of a Super Bowl is pretty dead. |
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Post by lordarvidthexiii on Feb 19, 2019 21:05:03 GMT
My markers:
-When Brady has 2 losing seasons in a row.
-When Belecheck, that other guy who's play predicter wizard no one ever talks about, and Brady all leave (Brady retiring and becoming a coach for the Pats isn't leaving in my book).
Even when those things happen, it might still continue on to a lesser degree if the spirit of the corps and the practices continue. Part of what makes the Pats so dominant is how they play with the passion of college players and not paycheck pro players. If they continue to practice as hard as they, that conditioning really helped wear down Atlanta and its what may our O line have some decent success in the last quarter of SB53.
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Post by lordarvidthexiii on Feb 19, 2019 21:06:34 GMT
In-season wise, to me they’re not dead until they’re mathematically eliminated, regardless of record. In week 16 if they’re 2-13 but the Dolphins, Bills, and Jets are all 1-14, in my book they have a chance to win the Super Bowl.* *provided that Brady is the QB. The Jets, Dolphins, and Bills couldn't all be 1 and 14 since they all play each other twice and someone has to win those games (or tie). But perhaps those first rate franchises just might find a way. (Edit: that's also only 15 total games) A tornado kills the 2 more winning teams, complete party wipe. Same freak weather causes a plane crash carrying the 3rd team. |
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