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Post by movieliker on Mar 11, 2019 4:14:35 GMT
Unless you're implying that the universe wasn't created by chance and was created with a deliberate cause... he's saying pretty much the same thing as I was implying. Once again.. Just trying to use words that people who are smarter than you use doesn't really make you smart. I am saying neither. The universe exists. Since we have testable hypotheses as to how it began, it can not be seen as accidental, neither can it been seen as having a creator since there are no testable hypotheses for this. Back to Occam's Razor. It can be seen anyway anybody wants to see it. Since there is no provable theory as to how and why it was created. Your desire to see things as having nothing to do with a conscious creator, is no more valid than my desire to see them as having everything to do with a conscious creator. Just because you desperately, angrily, insistently, and stubbornly desire one theory, doesn't make it anymore valid than a theory you hate. They are both possible. Your bias has nothing to do with it.
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Post by goz on Mar 11, 2019 4:29:18 GMT
I am saying neither. The universe exists. Since we have testable hypotheses as to how it began, it can not be seen as accidental, neither can it been seen as having a creator since there are no testable hypotheses for this. Back to Occam's Razor. It can be seen anyway anybody wants to see it. Since there is no provable theory as to how and why it was created. Your desire to see things as having nothing to do with a conscious creator, is no more valid than my desire to see them as having everything to do with a conscious creator. Just because you desperately, angrily, insistently, and stubbornly desire one theory, doesn't make it anymore valid than a theory you hate. They are both possible. Your bias has nothing to do with it. Your ignorance and projection prove that you, like Vegas, have no idea about philosophy, physics and Occam's Razor.
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Post by movieliker on Mar 11, 2019 4:32:43 GMT
It can be seen anyway anybody wants to see it. Since there is no provable theory as to how and why it was created. Your desire to see things as having nothing to do with a conscious creator, is no more valid than my desire to see them as having everything to do with a conscious creator. Just because you desperately, angrily, insistently, and stubbornly desire one theory, doesn't make it anymore valid than a theory you hate. They are both possible. Your bias has nothing to do with it. Your ignorance and projection prove that you, like Vegas, have no idea about philosophy, physics and Occam's Razor. No it proves the opposite. You and Toasted Cheese have no logic. And are a waste of time to talk to, or with.
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Post by phludowin on Mar 11, 2019 10:31:07 GMT
I am saying neither. The universe exists. Since we have testable hypotheses as to how it began, it can not be seen as accidental, neither can it been seen as having a creator since there are no testable hypotheses for this. Back to Occam's Razor. It can be seen anyway anybody wants to see it. Since there is no provable theory as to how and why it was created. Your desire to see things as having nothing to do with a conscious creator, is no more valid than my desire to see them as having everything to do with a conscious creator. Just because you desperately, angrily, insistently, and stubbornly desire one theory, doesn't make it anymore valid than a theory you hate. They are both possible. Yes they are. But one of them (no conscious creator) doesn't require the unproven assumption of a conscious creator. Therefore, according to Occam's Razor, it becomes the hypothesis to favor. Occam's Razor does not say that there is no conscious creator; just that the theory that does not have a conscious creator is most likely correct. Therefore, if proponents of a conscious creator wish to convince others of their theory, it's up to them to prove it; and not up to others to prove that there is no creator. You said that you are under no obligation to prove anything to anyone. That is correct. And nobody is under any obligation to share your belief. Or more precisely, nobody who does not live in a theocracy or in Iceland.
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Post by Vegas on Mar 11, 2019 12:08:11 GMT
Yes they are. But one of them (no conscious creator) doesn't require the unproven assumption of a conscious creator. Therefore, according to Occam's Razor, it becomes the hypothesis to favor.
Here's where I think we have the breakdown in dialogue.. and logic. As far as religion goes: Yes. We observe a world where God does not make His presence known... Therefore, the simplest assumption is that there is no God. But, Creation is not an observable event. We don't know how universes are made. We've never observed one being made. Occam's Razor doesn't apply to Creation... The closest thing we have is in the assumption that if God doesn't exist/use His power now... then, He probably didn't then back then... But we have no idea: IT WASN'T OBSERVED. Applying Occam's Razor to Creation and citing a lack of a Creator is making the same fallacy that theists make. Occam's Razor is not evidence of anything any more than The Bible is proof of God.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Mar 11, 2019 13:38:05 GMT
Karl Aksel And you want a cookie?... You want them to question it because you don't like how the story was written. No, I want them to question it because bad things happen when people don't think. Look who's talking. "You want them to question it because you don't like how the story was written." You wrote that, not I. Who the fuck are you to tell people what they think, Mr. Projectionist? No, there is nothing in the text to suggest that much. What, newborns were evil, too? And that still doesn't explain the animals. ...but that's not the verse that tells us God's motives. That's in verse 6. Because... They're animals... Who gives a shit? That's not a reason. If the motive was to kill only the evil people, there'd be no reason to bother with the animals. God was tired of his creation and wanted to start a new savegame. Just like SimCity, you build a city and then grow tired of it. You start a new one with the exact same kind of people, but it's fun because it's new. Then the others weren't, either. But everybody else was? Where did Noah's sons get their wives from? What about the wives' families? I do. You have demonstrated rather conclusively that you don't. If you mean to say that everybody except Noah and his family were tainted, then that is genetically quite impossible unless Noah and his in-laws had zero outside family. And that would make them a different species altogether. "Oh, but they only started the in-breeding after the angels mated with the humans". No. If that were the case, either they would have been the most inbred family in history, which would be quite remarkable, or there were plenty of people with no giant blood. And let us consider your scenario. Everyone except Noah's Eight had "damaged" DNA. That means the angel/human crossbreeding must have been going on for countless generations. In all that time, God had every opportunity to put a halt to it. Why didn't he? Answer actually found in the Bible: because there came a point when God was tired of his creation and wanted to start over again. And remember: God himself says that man is inherently wicked - be they pre flood or post flood. The Bible points out that the flood did not purge wickedness. So Noah's descendants had DNA just as "pure" or "damaged" as his contemporaries before the flood. No, apparently that was not the case. If that were the case, there would have been an easy solution much sooner which did not involve mass murder. Why did you quote it again, then? Well, what? Did they or did they not have damaged DNA? If they were allowed to survive, then every single human would have damaged DNA, and so the solution only served to purge non-damaged DNA. Pretty stupid if the reason for the flood was "damaged DNA", wouldn't you say?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 13:41:39 GMT
Yeah... Noah's Ark isn't a true story people.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Mar 11, 2019 13:44:00 GMT
Yes they are. But one of them (no conscious creator) doesn't require the unproven assumption of a conscious creator. Therefore, according to Occam's Razor, it becomes the hypothesis to favor.
Here's where I think we have the breakdown in dialogue.. and logic. As far as religion goes: Yes. We observe a world where God does not make His presence known... Therefore, the simplest assumption is that there is no God. But, Creation is not an observable event. We don't know how universes are made. We've never observed one being made. Occam's Razor doesn't apply to Creation... The closest thing we have is in the assumption that if God doesn't exist/use His power now... then, He probably didn't then back then... But we have no idea: IT WASN'T OBSERVED. Applying Occam's Razor to Creation and citing a lack of a Creator is making the same fallacy that theists make. Occam's Razor is not evidence of anything any more than The Bible is proof of God. Occam's razor applies precisely to the unobserved - never to the observed. If it's observed, then it's settled. One applies Occam's razor to purported answers to the same question, where the answers either has no evidence in their favour, or the evidence is equally strong. Otherwise, the answer with the most evidence in its favour wins. So of course Occam's razor can be applied to creation. Not that it needs to, as non-theistic explanations already have evidence in their favour.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Mar 11, 2019 14:01:34 GMT
I am saying neither. The universe exists. Since we have testable hypotheses as to how it began, it can not be seen as accidental, neither can it been seen as having a creator since there are no testable hypotheses for this. Back to Occam's Razor. It can be seen anyway anybody wants to see it. Since there is no provable theory as to how and why it was created. Your desire to see things as having nothing to do with a conscious creator, is no more valid than my desire to see them as having everything to do with a conscious creator. Just because you desperately, angrily, insistently, and stubbornly desire one theory, doesn't make it anymore valid than a theory you hate. They are both possible. Your bias has nothing to do with it. What you are failing to acknowledge, is that YOU ARE the conscious creator.
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Post by Vegas on Mar 11, 2019 14:36:50 GMT
Karl Aksel Take it back a notch, will ya? I'm the person who is reading your whining about how the story was written.  - "GOD SHOULD HAVE DONE IT DIFFERENTLY!!"  - "You don't like how the story is written."  - "HOW DARE YOU TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING??!" Yeah... BUT that IS the verse that says that everybody had turned to evil... which was kinda the point. There doesn't have to be a reason with the animals... They are animals... They are inconsequential. AND.. once again... They were ultimately saved in the story. That makes no fucking sense whatsoever... Literally. They were probably married before the angels started fucking humans. I mean.. Are you seriously this fucking stupid? It wouldn't take countless generations. Hell... According to the story this is when people were living for a few hundred years... not that it's even necessary: It could have all happened during Noah's lifetime: Angels bang humans, give birth to hybrids.. Hybrids start banging humans... That's 2 generations It could have all happened in 30 to 50 years time. Meanwhile, Noah and his family stayed out of the shit. It's not that big of a deal. Says you, stupid.  - "THE STORY SHOULD BE DIFFERENT!!" Because I did.... What? You gonna cry about that, too?  - "THE POST SHOULD BE DIFFERENT!!" They didn't... How the fuck are you this stupid?
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Post by Vegas on Mar 11, 2019 14:45:52 GMT
Occam's razor applies precisely to the unobserved - never to the observed. If it's observed, then it's settled. Of course it applies to the observed. Mere observation doesn't settle anything. EDIT: And there has to be some observation to have a point of reference to know what the simplest solution would be: For example - You see a mangled car sitting beside a railroad track. What happened to the car? Your theories would be based on already knowing (by observation) that cars don't spontaneously mangle themselves. And observing the proximity of the car to the railroad tracks.
2nd edit:
And observation changes those assumptions. Let's say you find debris from another vehicle.. and/or skid marks that lead away from the train tracks... Now, the train isn't the simplest of solutions.
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Post by movieliker on Mar 11, 2019 19:45:01 GMT
It can be seen anyway anybody wants to see it. Since there is no provable theory as to how and why it was created. Your desire to see things as having nothing to do with a conscious creator, is no more valid than my desire to see them as having everything to do with a conscious creator. Just because you desperately, angrily, insistently, and stubbornly desire one theory, doesn't make it anymore valid than a theory you hate. They are both possible. Yes they are. But one of them (no conscious creator) doesn't require the unproven assumption of a conscious creator. Therefore, according to Occam's Razor, it becomes the hypothesis to favor. Occam's Razor does not say that there is no conscious creator; just that the theory that does not have a conscious creator is most likely correct. Therefore, if proponents of a conscious creator wish to convince others of their theory, it's up to them to prove it; and not up to others to prove that there is no creator. You said that you are under no obligation to prove anything to anyone. That is correct. And nobody is under any obligation to share your belief. Or more precisely, nobody who does not live in a theocracy or in Iceland. You want some logic? Here's some logic. Believing in God cost you nothing. But not believing in Him could cost you everything.Now, what's the logical choice? Why take a chance? Is it really worth losing everything just based on stubborn insistence of "But there's no proof"?
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Post by movieliker on Mar 11, 2019 19:48:15 GMT
It can be seen anyway anybody wants to see it. Since there is no provable theory as to how and why it was created. Your desire to see things as having nothing to do with a conscious creator, is no more valid than my desire to see them as having everything to do with a conscious creator. Just because you desperately, angrily, insistently, and stubbornly desire one theory, doesn't make it anymore valid than a theory you hate. They are both possible. Your bias has nothing to do with it. What you are failing to acknowledge, is that YOU ARE the conscious creator. I am talking about the conscience creator of everything. Not just a theory.
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Post by Vegas on Mar 11, 2019 20:06:16 GMT
You want some logic? Here's some logic. Believing in God cost you nothing. But not believing in Him could cost you everything.Now, what's the logical choice? Why take a chance? Is it really worth losing everything just based on stubborn insistence of "But there's no proof"? PASCAL'S WAGER??!!!  YOU HAVE JUST UNLEASHED HELL!!!
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Post by Isapop on Mar 11, 2019 20:06:36 GMT
You want some logic? Here's some logic. Believing in God cost you nothing. But not believing in Him could cost you everything.Now, what's the logical choice? Why take a chance? Is it really worth losing everything just based on stubborn insistence of "But there's no proof"? While such a rationale might lead someone to profess belief in God and act like he believes in God, it's not an argument for the actual existence of God. So it does nothing to bring anyone to genuine belief.
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Post by Vegas on Mar 11, 2019 20:10:09 GMT
Believing in God cost you nothing. But not believing in Him could cost you everything. While such a rationale might lead someone to profess belief in God and act like he believes in God , it's not an argument for the actual existence of God. So it does nothing to bring anyone to genuine belief. This.
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Post by Eλευθερί on Mar 11, 2019 20:30:03 GMT
Yes they are. But one of them (no conscious creator) doesn't require the unproven assumption of a conscious creator. Therefore, according to Occam's Razor, it becomes the hypothesis to favor. Occam's Razor does not say that there is no conscious creator; just that the theory that does not have a conscious creator is most likely correct. Therefore, if proponents of a conscious creator wish to convince others of their theory, it's up to them to prove it; and not up to others to prove that there is no creator. You said that you are under no obligation to prove anything to anyone. That is correct. And nobody is under any obligation to share your belief. Or more precisely, nobody who does not live in a theocracy or in Iceland. You want some logic? Here's some logic. Believing in God cost you nothing. But not believing in Him could cost you everything.Now, what's the logical choice? Why take a chance? Is it really worth losing everything just based on stubborn insistence of "But there's no proof"? "Believing in God cost you nothing." FALSEFor many people, believing in God costs them everything.
And to the extent that such belief emboldens: - those who seek to bring about the end of the world & the Rapture as soon as possible, - those who would unleash nuclear armageddon in order to vanquish infidels, and - those who believe that we should burn all the fossil fuels we can get our hands on because God put them here for us to use and God will take care of everything it could very well cost ALL OF US, including those not yet born, EVERYTHING.
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Post by movieliker on Mar 11, 2019 20:42:23 GMT
You want some logic? Here's some logic. Believing in God cost you nothing. But not believing in Him could cost you everything.Now, what's the logical choice? Why take a chance? Is it really worth losing everything just based on stubborn insistence of "But there's no proof"? PASCAL'S WAGER??!!!  YOU HAVE JUST UNLEASHED HELL!!! Ha ha ha . . I guess I should have formatted it like this; Believing in God cost you nothing. But not believing in God COULD COST YOU EVERYTHING !!!Ha ha ha !!!
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Post by movieliker on Mar 11, 2019 20:44:54 GMT
You want some logic? Here's some logic. Believing in God cost you nothing. But not believing in Him could cost you everything.Now, what's the logical choice? Why take a chance? Is it really worth losing everything just based on stubborn insistence of "But there's no proof"? While such a rationale might lead someone to profess belief in God and act like he believes in God, it's not an argument for the actual existence of God. So it does nothing to bring anyone to genuine belief. I have never argued that God exist. And nobody should because there is no proof. In other words, there may be no God. That rationale is to why someone should believe. Not that there is a God.
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Post by movieliker on Mar 11, 2019 20:46:52 GMT
You want some logic? Here's some logic. Believing in God cost you nothing. But not believing in Him could cost you everything.Now, what's the logical choice? Why take a chance? Is it really worth losing everything just based on stubborn insistence of "But there's no proof"? "Believing in God cost you nothing." FALSEFor many people, believing in God costs them everything.
And to the extent that such belief emboldens: - those who seek to bring about the end of the world & the Rapture as soon as possible, - those who would unleash nuclear armageddon in order to vanquish infidels, and - those who believe that we should burn all the fossil fuels we can get our hands on because God put them here for us to use and God will take care of everything it could very well cost ALL OF US, including those not yet born, EVERYTHING. This post is ridiculous. Believing in God cost me nothing. What people do with that belief is a totally different discussion.
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