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Post by hairybuttcheeks on Apr 4, 2017 0:15:06 GMT
i don't. i think they are terms used by announcers to make the game sound more interesting. if a guy hit significantly better or worse in big situations, he wouldn't have made the majors. that is what it says in money ball and i believe it
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Post by nutsberryfarm 🏜 on Apr 4, 2017 21:37:06 GMT
mostly on weekends.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 22:11:37 GMT
I believe in momentum as a psychological thing. I think the math geeks have pretty much proved clutch hitting doesn't exist.
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Post by klawrencio79 on Apr 4, 2017 22:20:06 GMT
Clutch hitting absolutely exists. I'm not really sure how any baseball fan can say otherwise. Don't take every word Billy Bean says as gospel. Guy hasn't won dick and not for nothing, he had a tremendous roster of players back in 2002 including MVP winner Miguel Tejada and Cy Young Winner Barry Zito (who both won that year) so this idea that he completely reinvented the game out of necessity with nothing but his dick in his hand is total horseshit.
So yes, clutch hitting exists. It's quantifiable. Competitive sports have just as much a mental aspect as they do physical. Do you have any idea how many athletes have flamed out not because they weren't physically talented enough, but because they couldn't handle the rigors of the grind? Clutch hitting is the same concept but in reverse, in effect. Think of Cespedes and what he did in August and September of 2015. It was the definition of clutch hitting.
As for momentum, that exists but within games. I don't believe it carries over from one game to the next. But within a game, a guy gets on base, the pitcher starts to sweat, changes his plan, now his focus is diverted, good hitters can capitalize on that, resulting in hits being strung together and bigger innings.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 5, 2017 12:04:59 GMT
Clutch hitting absolutely exists. I'm not really sure how any baseball fan can say otherwise. Don't take every word Billy Bean says as gospel. Guy hasn't won dick and not for nothing, he had a tremendous roster of players back in 2002 including MVP winner Miguel Tejada and Cy Young Winner Barry Zito (who both won that year) so this idea that he completely reinvented the game out of necessity with nothing but his dick in his hand is total horseshit. So yes, clutch hitting exists. It's quantifiable. Competitive sports have just as much a mental aspect as they do physical. Do you have any idea how many athletes have flamed out not because they weren't physically talented enough, but because they couldn't handle the rigors of the grind? Clutch hitting is the same concept but in reverse, in effect. Think of Cespedes and what he did in August and September of 2015. It was the definition of clutch hitting. As for momentum, that exists but within games. I don't believe it carries over from one game to the next. But within a game, a guy gets on base, the pitcher starts to sweat, changes his plan, now his focus is diverted, good hitters can capitalize on that, resulting in hits being strung together and bigger innings. I agree with you but I also think momentum can carry over from game to game, whether individually or for an entire game. Hit streaks and win streaks are more than math, they're guys settling into a groove. Sometimes a player is just seeing the ball really well or comfortable with his swing. Sometimes a team just gets everything going at once, and that collective focus provides momentum going from one game to the next. It makes all the difference in the world when you get yourself into a particular mindset in sports. From a team perspective, look at the 2004 Red Sox. If ever there was an example of momentum in the post season, it's them. They were pushed to the breaking point after game 3 of the ALCS, played with 'house money' in games 4-5 and never really looked back, back door sweeping the Yanks and sweeping the Cards in the World Series. Another classic example of momentum would be the 2007 Rockies. They won a million games in a row to end the season and swept their way to the World Series...then they had to wait for the winner of a 7 game grinder of an ALCS, and then they were swept themselves by the Red Sox. You have to believe that series would have been much more competitive if the Rockies had the chance to continue rolling instead of sitting around waiting for the World Series.
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Post by hairybuttcheeks on Apr 5, 2017 13:55:46 GMT
klaw, i believe clutch hitting is all situational. If cespedes was on a crappy team with nobody on base, it wouldn't be considered clutch would it? clutch = performing well in key situations. ok, you have that. hitting RISP, a reliever pitching out of a jam, etc....clutch. fine.
but clutch is NOT an attribute. you can measure things like speed, defense, power, contact . . . . but i would never put the word clutch in the same sentence. i don't believe some players do better or worse in key situations. it is a team effort. cespedes was a big spark, he provided protection in the line up, got hot, hit home runs, and drove people in. but i don't believe he did it BECAUSE he was in big situations, he did it because he is an excellent hitter.
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Post by hairybuttcheeks on Apr 5, 2017 13:57:11 GMT
Momentum = many players on a team doing well at the same time. If you sweep a 4 game set, you are said to have momentum. I say you have multiple players doing very well at the same time.
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Post by SportsFan19 on Apr 5, 2017 14:20:12 GMT
I believe in both, definitely a psychological aspect to games. Big hits/plays can uplift a team's spirits and happy players are more like to perform better than emotionally drained players.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Apr 5, 2017 14:30:18 GMT
No, and I believe that the vast majority of stats in sports period are nonsense.
One of the problems in baseball in my opinion--and don't get me wrong, I'm a baseball fan--is that things are too balanced. I really don't believe that the outcome of baseball games, seasons, etc. is much different than chance would have it.
I'm not saying that no trends show up when we analyse the numbers of what happened, by the way. I'm saying that I don't at all believe that those numbers have anything at all to do with what's going to happen now or in the future. The stats have zero causal implications in other words. From a current, causal perspective, baseball might as well be completely random.
In sports in general, I do believe that there can be more or less talented groups of players, and in sports where the balance of that is really off--basketball for example, that's just as much of a problem.
I also think that a team's "culture" has a big impact--how the guys on the team tend to interact with each other, and how management, ownership etc. tends to interact with the team. That's a far more relevant factor than any stats.
I think the sports focus on stats is just an example of narrative-building, a fictionalization (the idea that they're relevant to anything that's going to happen now or in the future) that makes the game more interesting and that appeals to more numbers and minutiae-oriented fans. It also appeals to the same traits that fuel superstitions, and sports are rife with superstitions.
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Post by klawrencio79 on Apr 5, 2017 14:40:15 GMT
klaw, i believe clutch hitting is all situational. If cespedes was on a crappy team with nobody on base, it wouldn't be considered clutch would it? clutch = performing well in key situations. ok, you have that. hitting RISP, a reliever pitching out of a jam, etc....clutch. fine. but clutch is NOT an attribute. you can measure things like speed, defense, power, contact . . . . but i would never put the word clutch in the same sentence. i don't believe some players do better or worse in key situations. it is a team effort. cespedes was a big spark, he provided protection in the line up, got hot, hit home runs, and drove people in. but i don't believe he did it BECAUSE he was in big situations, he did it because he is an excellent hitter. Fair enough, but even if he were on a crappy team, guys would still be on base now and again and how he fared in those situations can easily be measured. If you look on baseball reference, you can see a guy's stats in innings 7-9, with RISP, with RISP and 2 outs, their postseason averages, all of those things factor in to what makes a guy "clutch" and others less so. In some ways, I'd argue that Cespedes' hitting is what made the team great at the time. They were offensively dead on arrival when they brought him in. They were scoring 1-2 runs per game for the entire season. He comes in and automatically the lineup lengthens and becomes better overnight. Is it a great team that enabled him to be great, or is it a great hitter carrying the rest of the team. I'd agree that the answer isn't obvious. But to be fair, I do agree that in some ways it's not a fool proof system in terms of it being measured. For example, everything you read about Pete Rose suggests that he was among the most clutch players of all time. His career line is .303/.375/.409. His postseason career line (over 300 PAs) is .321/.388/.440 so he clearly elevated his game. But even beyond that, this is a guy with a reputation for making his presence known in every single playoff game he was ever in. Taking the extra base, breaking up double plays, making huge defensive plays, working the pitchers....those things are certainly less quantifiable but are certainly a part of what made him so great, in addition to his ability to raise his overall level of play in big games. Yeah, he was a great hitter playing on great teams but clearly his sense of the moment was a part of what made those teams great.
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Post by hairybuttcheeks on Apr 5, 2017 14:45:55 GMT
klaw, i believe clutch hitting is all situational. If cespedes was on a crappy team with nobody on base, it wouldn't be considered clutch would it? clutch = performing well in key situations. ok, you have that. hitting RISP, a reliever pitching out of a jam, etc....clutch. fine. but clutch is NOT an attribute. you can measure things like speed, defense, power, contact . . . . but i would never put the word clutch in the same sentence. i don't believe some players do better or worse in key situations. it is a team effort. cespedes was a big spark, he provided protection in the line up, got hot, hit home runs, and drove people in. but i don't believe he did it BECAUSE he was in big situations, he did it because he is an excellent hitter. Fair enough, but even if he were on a crappy team, guys would still be on base now and again and how he fared in those situations can easily be measured. If you look on baseball reference, you can see a guy's stats in innings 7-9, with RISP, with RISP and 2 outs, their postseason averages, all of those things factor in to what makes a guy "clutch" and others less so. In some ways, I'd argue that Cespedes' hitting is what made the team great at the time. They were offensively dead on arrival when they brought him in. They were scoring 1-2 runs per game for the entire season. He comes in and automatically the lineup lengthens and becomes better overnight. Is it a great team that enabled him to be great, or is it a great hitter carrying the rest of the team. I'd agree that the answer isn't obvious. But to be fair, I do agree that in some ways it's not a fool proof system in terms of it being measured. For example, everything you read about Pete Rose suggests that he was among the most clutch players of all time. His career line is .303/.375/.409. His postseason career line (over 300 PAs) is .321/.388/.440 so he clearly elevated his game. But even beyond that, this is a guy with a reputation for making his presence known in every single playoff game he was ever in. Taking the extra base, breaking up double plays, making huge defensive plays, working the pitchers....those things are certainly less quantifiable but are certainly a part of what made him so great, in addition to his ability to raise his overall level of play in big games. Yeah, he was a great hitter playing on great teams but clearly his sense of the moment was a part of what made those teams great. yeah, the mets were a different team once cespedes came over. i was so pissed when he opted out, i really though another team was going to get him.
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Post by NJtoTX on Apr 5, 2017 14:46:30 GMT
Not really in baseball. If you flipped a coin a few hundred times and then the last 8 or 10 counted 10 times as much, you'd make a big deal about a stretch of 4 heads in a row occurring then over all the other tines. But some guys can freeze up on a bigger stage.
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Post by hairybuttcheeks on Apr 5, 2017 14:53:29 GMT
Not really in baseball. If you flipped a coin a few hundred times and then the last 8 or 10 counted 10 times as much, you'd make a big deal about a stretch of 4 heads in a row occurring then over all the other tines. But some guys can freeze up on a bigger stage. Which is what happened in the 2004 alcs. nothing 'magical happened', just like nothing magical happened a year earlier when the yankees came back against pedro and won. boston just won 4 in a row against the yankees. it didn't matter that they were down, the just as easily could have won 4-0 instead of 4-3. a 4 game winning streak by a very good team in not unheard of... they simply out played the yankees. simple as that, nothing magical
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Post by NJtoTX on Apr 5, 2017 14:56:41 GMT
Not really in baseball. If you flipped a coin a few hundred times and then the last 8 or 10 counted 10 times as much, you'd make a big deal about a stretch of 4 heads in a row occurring then over all the other tines. But some guys can freeze up on a bigger stage. Which is what happened in the 2004 alcs. nothing 'magical happened', just like nothing magical happened a year earlier when the yankees came back against pedro and won. boston just won 4 in a row against the yankees. it didn't matter that they were down, the just as easily could have won 4-0 instead of 4-3. a 4 game winning streak by a very good team in not unheard of... they simply out played the yankees. simple as that, nothing magical Agree to some extent. Boston did get fired up after losing game 3 by a 19-8 score.
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Post by klawrencio79 on Apr 5, 2017 15:46:11 GMT
Fair enough, but even if he were on a crappy team, guys would still be on base now and again and how he fared in those situations can easily be measured. If you look on baseball reference, you can see a guy's stats in innings 7-9, with RISP, with RISP and 2 outs, their postseason averages, all of those things factor in to what makes a guy "clutch" and others less so. In some ways, I'd argue that Cespedes' hitting is what made the team great at the time. They were offensively dead on arrival when they brought him in. They were scoring 1-2 runs per game for the entire season. He comes in and automatically the lineup lengthens and becomes better overnight. Is it a great team that enabled him to be great, or is it a great hitter carrying the rest of the team. I'd agree that the answer isn't obvious. But to be fair, I do agree that in some ways it's not a fool proof system in terms of it being measured. For example, everything you read about Pete Rose suggests that he was among the most clutch players of all time. His career line is .303/.375/.409. His postseason career line (over 300 PAs) is .321/.388/.440 so he clearly elevated his game. But even beyond that, this is a guy with a reputation for making his presence known in every single playoff game he was ever in. Taking the extra base, breaking up double plays, making huge defensive plays, working the pitchers....those things are certainly less quantifiable but are certainly a part of what made him so great, in addition to his ability to raise his overall level of play in big games. Yeah, he was a great hitter playing on great teams but clearly his sense of the moment was a part of what made those teams great. yeah, the mets were a different team once cespedes came over. i was so pissed when he opted out, i really though another team was going to get him. Put it here brother
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Apr 5, 2017 16:13:58 GMT
A clutch hitter is like a Coelecanth (prehistoric fish, Google it). It shouldn't exist, but it does. I've seen clutch hitters and so few as to make me believe that they DO exist. David Ortiz, Junior Griffey, Albert Pujols, Reggie Jackson, Joe Morgan, Chipper Jones, Ichiro. Too many times I seen them come up in a clutch situation and deliver to make be believe it was an anomaly. Did they do it every time, no. But I think they did dial it up in big situations.
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Post by xystophoros on Apr 5, 2017 22:46:15 GMT
Momentum absolutely exists, especially in baseball where hot hitting from guys in a lineup has an amplifying effect on other hitters in the same lineup.
I mean, how could anyone say otherwise when pitchers literally change their entire approach, change the pitches they'll throw, nibble the edges of the strike zone, and become far less aggressive when guys are on base and/or they're worried about the next hitter in the lineup?
Also, stats show that some hitters absolutely do get more hits and drive in more runs with RISP. There are also stats showing some hitters feast on the back ends of rotations, which is why you see some guys who have gaudy offensive numbers in the minors but still aren't considered MLB material -- those dudes are cleaning up on bad pitching, but aren't effective against major league level pitching.
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Post by hairybuttcheeks on Apr 5, 2017 22:57:56 GMT
Momentum absolutely exists, especially in baseball where hot hitting from guys in a lineup has an amplifying effect on other hitters in the same lineup. I mean, how could anyone say otherwise when pitchers literally change their entire approach, change the pitches they'll throw, nibble the edges of the strike zone, and become far less aggressive when guys are on base and/or they're worried about the next hitter in the lineup? Also, stats show that some hitters absolutely do get more hits and drive in more runs with RISP. There are also stats showing some hitters feast on the back ends of rotations, which is why you see some guys who have gaudy offensive numbers in the minors but still aren't considered MLB material -- those dudes are cleaning up on bad pitching, but aren't effective against major league level pitching. my argument is those hitters don't do better BECAUSE there are RISP. of course players have different BA in different situations - but that's just the luck factor.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 6, 2017 17:16:23 GMT
Not really in baseball. If you flipped a coin a few hundred times and then the last 8 or 10 counted 10 times as much, you'd make a big deal about a stretch of 4 heads in a row occurring then over all the other tines. But some guys can freeze up on a bigger stage. Which is what happened in the 2004 alcs. nothing 'magical happened', just like nothing magical happened a year earlier when the yankees came back against pedro and won. boston just won 4 in a row against the yankees. it didn't matter that they were down, the just as easily could have won 4-0 instead of 4-3. a 4 game winning streak by a very good team in not unheard of... they simply out played the yankees. simple as that, nothing magical Nobody said it was magic. The team's mentality changed once all the expectations went out the window. They played fearless baseball and started hitting on all cylinders. Suddenly the pressure (and are you going to argue pressure isn't real in sports?) was all on the Yankees again. This reminds me of analytics people saying there is no such thing as 'being in the zone.' There absolutely is such a thing. Sometimes you're having a good day, sometimes you're in the zone. You can feel it. It's beyond confidence, it's muscle memory taking over. You remove all doubt of the outcome (and honestly any thoughts of anything at all) and simply do it. If you've taken part in any athletic endeavor and never been in the zone, I pity you. Momentum and clutch play are real elements that simply cannot be measured, because they represent the psychological aspect of sports. Look at Super Bowl LI. Was there no momentum shift in that game? The Patriots scored 31 unanswered points! "We'll they just as easily could have scored 31 unanswered points to start the game." But they didn't. They did it after trailing 28-3. That's called momentum. Momentum is, if nothing else, an increase of focus which brings an increase to efficiency. Momentum is the opposite of frantic. Blowouts happen is sports (particularly in football) when a team gets down and tries t make big plays out of nothing instead of staying the course. This desperation leads to mistakes, and the blowout gets worse. They never gain momentum because they are playing frantically. Nobody panicked on the Patriots. They steadied the course and played virtually error free football down the stretch. That focus gave them momentum, and that momentum carried the day. Meanwhile the Falcons panicked, made poor decisions and ceded the momentum they previously had to the Patriots. It can't be math or 'The Patriots were the better team coming into the game' once they were down 25 points. There's a mental aspect to all of this that you're completely disregarding. So if momentum is the opposite of frantic play, then 'clutch' is the opposite of panicking. It isn't magic and it isn't math when the same great players win again and again and again. It's mental preparation, plain and simple. Watch the mic'd up NFL film of the Super Bowl. The Falcons are up 21-0 and two Atlanta players are openly discussing Tom Brady's ability to bring his team back (and of course it isn't him alone but that's not the point here). Meanwhile the Patriots at one point are down 25 points and Julian Edelman says to Brady, "It's going to be a hell of a story," to which Brady simply replies, "Yup." Now tell me who was mentally prepared to make 'clutch' plays in this game? The team up three TDs and worrying about what's going to happen down the stretch, or the team down 25 points who still fully expect to win the game? That mental preparation is what leads to 'momentum,' moment to moment, game to game, season to season. But it's absolutely real. The trick isn't 'believing' in momentum or 'clutch play,' it's understanding that these aren't abstract 'magical' concepts. They are mental aspects of the game that do not show up in a stat sheet but are totally under your control.
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Post by hairybuttcheeks on Apr 6, 2017 17:31:37 GMT
NOPE
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