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Post by faustus5 on May 30, 2017 22:15:03 GMT
You don't believe anything has a reason to exist beyond what 'we' project or interpret as its purpose? I understood you to be using the word "purpose" in its use as a synonym for "function", because that's the only way to use the concept that makes sense in a conversation about the nature of consciousness. As in, for instance, the following sentence: "The purpose of the fusiform face area in the human brain appears to be to categorize and recognize visual data as representing a face." If you seek a "reason to exist" that lies outside this meaning of "purpose", then the only credible answers to such question have to come from the appropriate sciences, or the question as framed has no legitimate meaning. So a rock, having no parts that serve any functions within it, would have a "reason to exist" that can be discovered through the chemistry of geology. But if the rock were part of a human designed mechanism, like a pulley system, then you could describe it as having a purpose in the first sense. |
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Post by Toasted Cheese on May 30, 2017 22:25:47 GMT
Perhaps you don't know what to say then, because your concept\notion of God and what God or The Godforce represents is different to mine. You are striving to meet what you only "perceive" as God's standards of perfection. It is all perfect as it is, and I would say you are just being rigid and coming from a religious conceptualized notion of what you feel God represents. That rigidity is also coming from a control space, which is also an ego space. As a Christian I do not fully understand perfection that died on a cross. I am grateful for it because I believe that through this act God's perfection overcame the worlds imperfection. You are right to question how people set their measure of what constitutes perfection. Too easy for ego to step in and say this is perfect that isn't. Only grace can tell us what is perfect. How could a person 2000 years or so ago travelling through Jerusalem and seeing a stranger named Jesus dying on a cross have known he was witnessing the perfect Divine unless God's grace made it known? I believe perfection is real but I believe, as I think most religions teach, that only God really knows what perfection is because only God is truly perfect. You said ' all is perfect as it is'. I disagree strongly! I am not perfect and I am part of the whole therefore all is not perfect. Julian of Norwich, a Christian mystic , said 'all will be well' not 'all is well' quite simply because all isn't well or perfect.. yet. : ) I am not perfect either, but what can be perfect in a world where nothing is permanent? All is perfectly imperfect and we are here to do the work that leads to spiritual evolvement\enlightenment and I also believe it is not a once around. We have to earn our stripes. You are Christian and believe in Christ being the savior of mankind. I believe that Christ existed, but he has been glorified by the church and there was an agenda behind this, and that is one of controlling the masses to keep them behaving and living in fear. Christ\Jesus was a highly enlightened being, like the Buddha, and they help show people about the purpose of their lives and what can be accomplished, as in self-realization which leads to transcendence. As mentioned previously, it is all one and whole and complete and Christ knew this. His resurrection, was his own transcendence and about what is attainable. His purpose was not to die for anyone's sins. We are also not the original sin. How about seeing yourself as the original blessing? That way, it might help you along your journey with what you perceive as perfect or imperfect. |
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Post by Toasted Cheese on May 31, 2017 10:24:16 GMT
...If you seek a "reason to exist" that lies outside this meaning of "purpose", then the only credible answers to such question have to come from the appropriate sciences, or the question as framed has no legitimate meaning... What if we exist to have "purpose" or find a "purpose"? And what is meaning? Somebody's else's personal projection or perception of something, which can be rendered abstract and open for interpretation anyway. The purpose of one thing, may not hold the same value or purpose for another. It doesn't mean it is any less useful or "purposeful". |
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Post by Terrapin Station on May 31, 2017 10:38:55 GMT
Yes, for me of course. But that would be my point of view. When I die my point of view will no longer exist. If the earth and all of its life ceases to exist, what purpose will the universe have then? The pov being from the ego mind, which is a feature of our physical human embodiment. Consciousness awareness is eternal, that is the self-realization and that is that there is no "self". Your purpose is transcendence, and being free from the limitations that the physical sense of self on earth represents for many. There isn't anything other than physical stuff, though, and you're nothing more than your physical body. |
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Post by faustus5 on May 31, 2017 10:41:49 GMT
What if we exist to have "purpose" or find a "purpose"? I can't even begin to understand what that is supposed to mean. What would the world look like if we did "exist to have or find purpose" versus if we didn't? What noticeable difference would it make one way or the other? |
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Post by Toasted Cheese on May 31, 2017 10:51:39 GMT
The pov being from the ego mind, which is a feature of our physical human embodiment. Consciousness awareness is eternal, that is the self-realization and that is that there is no "self". Your purpose is transcendence, and being free from the limitations that the physical sense of self on earth represents for many. There isn't anything other than physical stuff, though, and you're nothing more than your physical body. When the brain dies and the heart stops, that's it!  It's your journey, all the best.  |
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Post by Terrapin Station on May 31, 2017 10:53:10 GMT
There isn't anything other than physical stuff, though, and you're nothing more than your physical body. When the brain dies and the heart stops, that's it! Correct. |
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Post by Toasted Cheese on May 31, 2017 10:57:32 GMT
What if we exist to have "purpose" or find a "purpose"? I can't even begin to understand what that is supposed to mean. What would the world look like if we did "exist to have or find purpose" versus if we didn't? What noticeable difference would it make one way or the other? Was it a difficult question, or you are you just refusing to see the larger landscape? In other words, the reason we are here is to find purpose and that is created through authentic and genuine action and thought. It can't be explained any simpler than that. It makes a "noticeable" difference to your life and the way you look at the world. Eyes wide shut! |
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Post by Toasted Cheese on May 31, 2017 10:59:32 GMT
When the brain dies and the heart stops, that's it! Correct. Nice how you avoided the sarcasm, so here it is again. My statement wasn't an endorsement, but you already knew that. |
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Post by Terrapin Station on May 31, 2017 11:01:05 GMT
Nice how you avoided the sarcasm, so here it is again. My statement wasn't an endorsement, but you already knew that. I was helping you out. That you feel that what's the case is funny is irrelevant. |
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Post by Toasted Cheese on May 31, 2017 11:05:09 GMT
Nice how you avoided the sarcasm, so here it is again. My statement wasn't an endorsement, but you already knew that. I was helping you out. That you feel that what's the case is funny is irrelevant. But you are funny and that none of it is irrelevant. You have got to find your own path and sense of purpose for your being anyway, so no matter what others think or believe, it is really none of our business, especially when they don't ask for our help. |
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Post by Terrapin Station on May 31, 2017 11:16:50 GMT
You have got to find your own path and sense of purpose for your being. We certainly agree on that, it just doesn't change the physical facts of the world (and that is itself a physical fact). And there are only physical facts. |
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Post by faustus5 on May 31, 2017 12:07:26 GMT
Was it a difficult question, or you are you just refusing to see the larger landscape? I don't think it is a good question and I also don't think there is a larger landscape to see or refuse to see. What evidence would support this view as opposed to a competing view, such as that we exist only to spread genes as a result of completely mindless processes going back billions of years, and that "purpose" that is "created through authentic and genuine action and thought" is just a useful fiction? Don't knock useful fictions, by the way. We can't live without them. We're largely made of them, in fact. |
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Post by The Lost One on May 31, 2017 12:38:25 GMT
You have got to find your own path and sense of purpose for your being. We certainly agree on that, it just doesn't change the physical facts of the world (and that is itself a physical fact). And there are only physical facts. What do you mean by "physical facts" exactly? It strikes me for instance that "all bachelors are unmarried" is a fact but it doesn't strike me as physical per se - there is no such physical thing as marriage. |
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Post by Terrapin Station on May 31, 2017 12:55:16 GMT
We certainly agree on that, it just doesn't change the physical facts of the world (and that is itself a physical fact). And there are only physical facts. What do you mean by "physical facts" exactly? It strikes me for instance that "all bachelors are unmarried" is a fact but it doesn't strike me as physical per se - there is no such physical thing as marriage. There's certainly no non-physical thing such as marriage, a fortiori because the very idea of non-physical things is incoherent. But marriage does exist. I'm married after all. So marriage is a physical fact, or a set of physical facts rather, as is everything. What physical facts? Well, things such as ways of thinking about other people (which are brain states), and ways of treating people (including others treating a married couple in ways that we take to count as a married couple), and particular documents (marriage certificates for example) and so on. |
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Post by The Lost One on May 31, 2017 13:57:29 GMT
There's certainly no non-physical thing such as marriage, a fortiori because the very idea of non-physical things is incoherent. Seems kinda close to question-begging to me: "Every fact we think of must be physical because only physical facts can be thought of" Isn't there a confusion there? I have a physical brain state when I think of you as being married but it is the thinking itself that is the brain state not what I am thinking of you as. Like if I say I am walking to the shop, walking is a physical state but the shop itself is not part of the physical state. Of course, in that example a shop is physical in itself, but is marriage? Maybe getting a bit Zen here, but if no-one else knew a married couple were married, would they still be married? If a man gets amnesia and forgets he's married and there is no surviving marriage certificate and he is not around others who think him married, is he no longer married? |
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Post by Terrapin Station on May 31, 2017 14:01:56 GMT
There's certainly no non-physical thing such as marriage, a fortiori because the very idea of non-physical things is incoherent. Seems kinda close to question-begging to me: "Every fact we think of must be physical because only physical facts can be thought of" I'm just answering at the moment because I want to make sure that we take care of one thing at a time, fully, if this is going to turn into a longer conversation. What you have in quotation marks isn't at all what I said, though, is it? It's not that everything must be physical because it must be physical. Rather, the very idea of non-physical existents is incoherent. That's a strong reason in favor of everything being physical instead. Does the distinction there make sense to you? |
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Post by The Lost One on May 31, 2017 14:25:22 GMT
Ok I see your distinction, but I'm not sure I agree with you that the very idea of non-physical existents is incoherent. What makes it so? What do you define as "physical" and why is its coherency assured?
Maybe we need our own thread for this!
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Post by Toasted Cheese on May 31, 2017 22:35:24 GMT
You have got to find your own path and sense of purpose for your being. We certainly agree on that, it just doesn't change the physical facts of the world (and that is itself a physical fact). And there are only physical facts. And it doesn't change the "spiritual"— for want of a better term—aspects of your inner being, that many dismiss due to attachments of this physical realm. Attachment to the physical, is all about fear and desperation, and brings forth the conflict and suffering that is perpetuated onto the billions of lives living on this planet. It is after all impermanent, so what is a physical fact anyway, perhaps just a construct of the ego mind? Our beliefs and so-called facts come from this mind and how is that physical? |
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Post by Toasted Cheese on May 31, 2017 22:44:43 GMT
Was it a difficult question, or you are you just refusing to see the larger landscape? I don't think it is a good question and I also don't think there is a larger landscape to see or refuse to see. What evidence would support this view as opposed to a competing view, such as that we exist only to spread genes as a result of completely mindless processes going back billions of years, and that "purpose" that is "created through authentic and genuine action and thought" is just a useful fiction? Don't knock useful fictions, by the way. We can't live without them. We're largely made of them, in fact. It was a very good question, one that you don't know how to answer, because you don't see the bigger picture. Or perhaps you just refuse too? That is your prerogative though. Everything is in your power. You take responsibility for all thought and action and that is the life you are creating. It is all connected and all action, and nothing in the universe and how it operates is going to change that, no matter how much you may choose to fight against it. Do you wish to live your life in a constant state of flux and conflict and not take responsibility for all that is going on around you? It is all in your own hands and goes so much deeper, beyond the ego mindset. |
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