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Post by goz on Mar 10, 2019 22:14:29 GMT
So, to bring the theological debate over here where it belongs, the question, to me, is not 'do animals have souls?' but 'are animal souls immortal?' Yes, I am an agnostic atheist, I believe that when we die, there is no afterlife. But does a soul have to be immortal? Just because I do not believe that there is a creator or a god, does that mean no one has a soul? I might get roasted for daring to state that I think every sentient being has a soul, given my atheism. But how different is a soul and sentience? Since, as a fellow agnostic atheist I don't believe on 'souls', I say that neither humans nor animals have 'souls'. However if you have been reading any of my posts on consciousness, you will have read of my evolutionary theory of consciousness, with it increasing in complexity towards the end point (so far) of human consciousness. I do believe that on a sliding scale for complexity of brain function, that animals are both sentient and have a certain level of consciousness. Like you I adore animals, have an emotional connection with them. I have loved many almost as my children and have fond memories of those that I have loved, and admired many from afar. IMHO they are functionally the same because to me a soul implies life after death, and I don't believe that is possible.
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Post by gameboy on Mar 10, 2019 23:33:13 GMT
Tell me if you believe a cockroach has a soul and I'll answer your question.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 11, 2019 0:48:40 GMT
This is the result of a quick search on the definition of the word 'soul'. Goz, in her post, said that the word, to her, implied immortality. According to the search, the word 'soul' does not always imply immortality, but a number of other things that define a living being. And, logically, it would follow that a dead being would not have these mental abilities.
I would say that, as much as I would like it to be otherwise, the soul of a being would cease to exist when the being dies. As to where to draw the line of what level of life has a soul - like a cockroach, an insect - I don't know, but think that if an organism can sense pain and be trained by repetition of an activity, such as a maze, then it could mean that organism has a soul. This is purely subjective on my part. And I do not feel that it implies immortality. It is what I would call sentience.
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Post by goz on Mar 11, 2019 1:14:22 GMT
This is the result of a quick search on the definition of the word 'soul'. Goz, in her post, said that the word, to her, implied immortality. According to the search, the word 'soul' does not always imply immortality, but a number of other things that define a living being. And, logically, it would follow that a dead being would not have these mental abilities. I would say that, as much as I would like it to be otherwise, the soul of a being would cease to exist when the being dies. As to where to draw the line of what level of life has a soul - like a cockroach, an insect - I don't know, but think that if an organism can sense pain and be trained by repetition of an activity, such as a maze, then it could mean that organism has a soul. This is purely subjective on my part. And I do not feel that it implies immortality. It is what I would call sentience. To me, soul and sentience are pretty much interchangeable, and I prefer sentience because of the religious connotations of the word 'soul' and of course the afterlife thing!
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 11, 2019 1:26:07 GMT
This is the result of a quick search on the definition of the word 'soul'. Goz, in her post, said that the word, to her, implied immortality. According to the search, the word 'soul' does not always imply immortality, but a number of other things that define a living being. And, logically, it would follow that a dead being would not have these mental abilities. I would say that, as much as I would like it to be otherwise, the soul of a being would cease to exist when the being dies. As to where to draw the line of what level of life has a soul - like a cockroach, an insect - I don't know, but think that if an organism can sense pain and be trained by repetition of an activity, such as a maze, then it could mean that organism has a soul. This is purely subjective on my part. And I do not feel that it implies immortality. It is what I would call sentience. To me, soul and sentience are pretty much interchangeable, and I prefer sentience because of the religious connotations of the word 'soul' and of course the afterlife thing! Yeah, I see your point, especially the afterlife thing, but I still like this quote: I love cats because I love my home and after a while they become its visible soul. - Jean Cocteau  (yes, I am the crazy cat lady)
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Post by goz on Mar 11, 2019 2:28:39 GMT
To me, soul and sentience are pretty much interchangeable, and I prefer sentience because of the religious connotations of the word 'soul' and of course the afterlife thing! Yeah, I see your point, especially the afterlife thing, but I still like this quote: I love cats because I love my home and after a while they become its visible soul. - Jean Cocteau (yes, I am the crazy cat lady) Yes, indeed. There are certain acquired traditional meanings of the word that are rather lovely if you ignore the limited meaning of the Christian 'soul' 'Soul' music, 'heart and soul' 'to feel something in your soul' etc
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Post by phludowin on Mar 11, 2019 10:38:21 GMT
When I was a pup and believed in such things... I used to have a theory that the love of a human would give an animal a soul... and would, therefore, have an afterlife. Kind of like the Velveteen Rabbit? Or Andersen's Little Mermaid.
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Post by phludowin on Mar 11, 2019 10:45:17 GMT
So, to bring the theological debate over here where it belongs, the question, to me, is not 'do animals have souls?' but 'are animal souls immortal?' Yes, I am an agnostic atheist, I believe that when we die, there is no afterlife. But does a soul have to be immortal? Just because I do not believe that there is a creator or a god, does that mean no one has a soul? I might get roasted for daring to state that I think every sentient being has a soul, given my atheism. But how different is a soul and sentience? I'd say: The "soul" (for want of a better word) is the personality. Meaning: A sense of self, and of time (past, present and future), and the ability to have plans and expectations for the future. I don't know if there are animals that have it. But what I do know, thanks to Benjamin Libet, is that body and "soul" are a unit. So when the body dies, so does the "soul". Therefore, no afterlife, and no immortal "soul".
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 11:19:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 11:23:59 GMT
His Holiness has said quite a lot about animals, including confirmation that their souls also return to Christ...  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 11:45:37 GMT
Alright... Who are the 3 people who said animals don't have souls? Our Dexter isn't very happy with you.  |
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 11, 2019 14:20:40 GMT
Alright... Who are the 3 people who said animals don't have souls? Our Dexter isn't very happy with you. Oh, dear, Father Jack! I'm afraid Dexter may jump through the screen, and lick me to death!
What a sweet boy! I guess the debate will go on, over the immortality of a soul, but we have those wonderful friends in our hearts as long as we live. From my very first dog, who let a diapered, crawling baby (me) eat the dog food out of his dish, to the cat that now curls up in my arms every night, I'm grateful for every one of those creatures, and there has been more than a few. I've rescued as many as I could, over the years, sent them on to loving families, heard back from adopters the heart-warming stories, and it's made my life worth living. My Dad was the same; must've been in the genes. I wish I knew how to post personal photographs; I have a beautiful photo of a Siamese cat that I rescued out of a shelter. Big, blue eyes. Sweet, loving creature that I kept because she had cancer. I loved her and kept her comfortable for the year she had after surgery, and then she went to sleep in my arms because I didn't want her to suffer. I combined a quotation with her photo - "Who can believe that there is no soul, behind those luminous eyes." Theophile Gautier.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 11, 2019 14:24:54 GMT
His Holiness has said quite a lot about animals, including confirmation that their souls also return to Christ... I have a friend, an Evangelical, that grieves because she believes that they won't be in Paradise. I will pass this on to her.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 14:30:49 GMT
His Holiness has said quite a lot about animals, including confirmation that their souls also return to Christ... I have a friend, an Evangelical, that grieves because she believes that they won't be in Paradise. I will pass this on to her. It might just be a Catholic thing, I doubt fundos believe in animals returning to reside with Christ. We do things like pray for St Francis to protect them, hang St Francis medallions on their collars, and get priests to bless our pets in October. |
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 11, 2019 14:32:24 GMT
One thing I do know - they have appetites and WANT TO BE FED, RIGHT NOW!!!!
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Post by faustus5 on Mar 11, 2019 14:38:57 GMT
Alright... Who are the 3 people who said animals don't have souls? Our Dexter isn't very happy with you. I was one of them. Nothing against animals, but I don't think anything on the planet has a soul. Dualism has been dead in the water for decades among a solid majority of philosophers and scientists who think about such things, so it isn't as if my position is controversial among those whose opinions matter.
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Post by rizdek on Mar 11, 2019 14:53:30 GMT
I believe many animals species are sentient and in that regard I'd say they have a soul...if we call the thing that makes humans sentient a soul. I don't think the soul is supernatural, nor that animals (human or otherwise) souls live on after the brain/body dies.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 17:21:51 GMT
The entrance to Heaven...  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 17:30:19 GMT
Of course dogs go to heaven... It wouldn't be heaven without them... We entrust St Roch to see them safely home to be with our lord and saviour 🙏
And ask good St Roch to comfort and pray for all who are bereaved after losing their canine companions, whose earthly lives are shorter than ours. Amen.
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Post by thefleetsin on Mar 11, 2019 17:37:52 GMT
there is absolutely not one shred of verifiable evidence that a soul exists.
now, there exists centuries of wishful thinking and countless market strategies that promote the existence of a soul. and most if not all come back to gleaning profits from pandering to pedantic push overs.
how's tricks??
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