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Post by goz on Mar 20, 2019 1:10:24 GMT
That reminds me of Toasted Cheese' logic for some reason! You know! The 'everything is really nothing and nothing is everything and it is just your own perception anyway because you are god and the earth and the moon and the stars etc etc etc
If it's not what you think it is, what is it then? Humans have agreed over the millennia to the point where they have been able to formulate language, society and pooled human knowledge...due to their shared consciousness in some form.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 20, 2019 17:43:39 GMT
Not too long ago in this forum we were talking briefly about solipsism, and I took the view that since there's no scientific test that can help determine the validity of this position that we need to fall back on Occam's Razor. The idea that everyone else is the same as you is simpler than the one where you are special. I feel that the same consideration can be applied to anti-realism. In the absense of evidence that what seems real is only an illusion, I'm going to go with taking the evidence of the senses at face value (including that which is detectable only indirectly). Further to my last post to Flim Flam ( who I adore) where I said I do agree that Occam's Razor is in evidence here. Without some sense of a common reality we could have neither language, society nor intellectual shared knowledge. It is that simple. The trouble is that, in so far as religious belief is concerned then there is no sense of a reality which is common (if we exclude an overall appreciation of the any transcendental in general) and things just aren't simple in the way you suggest. For instance Muslims believe that the Archangel dictated the Qur'an to Mohammed in a cave; Christians might believe that Mary remained a virgin for all of her life, while Mormons typically consider that Joseph Smith's golden plates existed then were lost, and so on. But no side necessarily believes in the reality of many of the other's core beliefs. But for Muslims, Christians, and indeed all other religions with such specific beliefs, what they held dear is still true - for them.
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Post by goz on Mar 20, 2019 20:23:43 GMT
Further to my last post to Flim Flam ( who I adore) where I said I do agree that Occam's Razor is in evidence here. Without some sense of a common reality we could have neither language, society nor intellectual shared knowledge. It is that simple. The trouble is that, in so far as religious belief is concerned then there is no sense of a reality which is common (if we exclude an overall appreciation of the any transcendental in general) and things just aren't simple in the way you suggest. For instance Muslims believe that the Archangel dictated the Qur'an to Mohammed in a cave; Christians might believe that Mary remained a virgin for all of her life, while Mormons typically consider that Joseph Smith's golden plates existed then were lost, and so on. But no side necessarily believes in the reality of many of the other's core beliefs. But for Muslims, Christians, and indeed all other religions with such specific beliefs, what they held dear is still true - for them. No, I was not referring to the specific of different religions which are in my view is peripheral to the core of a shared reality. In other words we cannot ignore '(if we exclude an overall appreciation of the any transcendental in general) There is a reality which is shard by conscious humans, albeit with variations of perspective.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 20, 2019 20:44:49 GMT
The trouble is that, in so far as religious belief is concerned then there is no sense of a reality which is common (if we exclude an overall appreciation of the any transcendental in general) and things just aren't simple in the way you suggest. For instance Muslims believe that the Archangel dictated the Qur'an to Mohammed in a cave; Christians might believe that Mary remained a virgin for all of her life, while Mormons typically consider that Joseph Smith's golden plates existed then were lost, and so on. But no side necessarily believes in the reality of many of the other's core beliefs. But for Muslims, Christians, and indeed all other religions with such specific beliefs, what they held dear is still true - for them.No, I was not referring to the specific of different religions which are in my view is peripheral to the core of a shared reality. In other words we cannot ignore '(if we exclude an overall appreciation of the any transcendental in general) There is a reality which is shard by conscious humans, albeit with variations of perspective. Well there is no debate, even among Anti-realists, that contemplation of the transcendental is common to humankind and always has been. The point though also remains that supposed truths, specific to different faiths can be seen by adherents as true, to them, even when others bitterly dispute them. The notion that there is a shared reality for all in this context is simply the realist stance, against which the idea that the truth of a statement rests on its demonstrability through internal logic mechanisms is contrasted.
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Post by goz on Mar 20, 2019 21:04:20 GMT
No, I was not referring to the specific of different religions which are in my view is peripheral to the core of a shared reality. In other words we cannot ignore '(if we exclude an overall appreciation of the any transcendental in general) There is a reality which is shard by conscious humans, albeit with variations of perspective. Well there is no debate, even among Anti-realists, that contemplation of the transcendental is common to humankind and always has been. The point though also remains that supposed truths, specific to different faiths can be seen by adherents as true, to them, even when others bitterly dispute them. The notion that there is a shared reality for all in this context is simply the realist stance, against which the idea that the truth of a statement rests on its demonstrability through internal logic mechanisms is contrasted. I think that we are somewhat at 'crossed purposes' here. I am referring to the commonality of the basic human consciousness and not what I described as 'variations in perspective' which covers what you are talking about in various concepts to individuals ( and related groups such as religious faiths) being true yet conflicting and contrasting.... to them.Whether it be contemplation of the transcendental or observation of the world around us, there is a commonality and consensus within human consciousness to be able to develop things like language and society. This sometimes gets missed in the antirealist concept of 'life is merely an individual illusory experience'.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 1:20:20 GMT
I've still never seen a flat Earth model that accounts for something so simple as the sun setting below the horizon and not plunging the entire world into darkness. Or hell, even just the fact that it's night in half the world and simultaneously day in the other half.
You'd think these would be pretty much step 1 of creating a flat Earth model!
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 23, 2019 19:15:28 GMT
]I think that we are somewhat at 'crossed purposes' here. I am referring to the commonality of the basic human consciousness Well the first question this statement inspires is how one could know that all human consciousness is the same. What difference would it result in (different ideas of religious truth maybe?) and how could it be tested? I am not sure that consciousness would be relevant since only a conscious mind can appreciate truths, of whatever kind. And yet so many different conclusions about reality are reached. All that Anti-realism suggests is that personal truth can be, well, subjective - and subjectivity is certainly common to us all, I'd certainly agree with that.
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Post by goz on Mar 23, 2019 20:38:57 GMT
]I think that we are somewhat at 'crossed purposes' here. I am referring to the commonality of the basic human consciousness Well the first question this statement inspires is how one could know that all human consciousness is the same. What difference would it result in (different ideas of religious truth maybe?) and how could it be tested? I am not sure that consciousness would be relevant since only a conscious mind can appreciate truths, of whatever kind. And yet so many different conclusions about reality are reached. All that Anti-realism suggests is that personal truth can be, well, subjective - and subjectivity is certainly common to us all, I'd certainly agree with that. Exactly. My only point is that we share a commonality of consciousness at a basic level making us human and allowing us to have social things like language and culture and religion. The detail of that whilst being subjective is vastly varied.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 23, 2019 20:46:01 GMT
Well the first question this statement inspires is how one could know that all human consciousness is the same. What difference would it result in (different ideas of religious truth maybe?) and how could it be tested? I am not sure that consciousness would be relevant since only a conscious mind can appreciate truths, of whatever kind. And yet so many different conclusions about reality are reached. All that Anti-realism suggests is that personal truth can be, well, subjective - and subjectivity is certainly common to us all, I'd certainly agree with that. Exactly. My only point is that we share a commonality of consciousness at a basic level making us human and allowing us to have social things like language and culture and religion. The detail of that whilst being subjective is vastly varied. Indeed. But it does not affect the observation that religious truths in particular are specific to different religious groups - which is still the point I was making.
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Post by goz on Mar 23, 2019 20:58:54 GMT
Exactly. My only point is that we share a commonality of consciousness at a basic level making us human and allowing us to have social things like language and culture and religion. The detail of that whilst being subjective is vastly varied. Indeed. But it does not affect the observation that religious truths in particular are specific to different religious groups - which is still the point I was making. True...and many are in common. ...further, it is in common that they might each think that their's is the only truth!
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Post by maya55555 on Mar 24, 2019 3:44:53 GMT
TRY THIS:
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Post by maya55555 on Mar 24, 2019 3:52:08 GMT
I learned this via "The Thief of Bagdad".
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Post by maya55555 on Mar 24, 2019 3:55:11 GMT
Aussies:
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