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Post by gameboy on Apr 28, 2019 18:55:02 GMT
I'm a materialist and an atheist. But I'm becoming more and more attracted to pantheism, and have a sense that while there is no "god", no anthropomorphic sky lord, there may be a reason and purpose to this universe and our existence. So I'm genuinely curious to hear what you think is the nature of our consciousness. Is there a "soul", an individual identity completely separate from the physical? Are we as beings just a series of thoughts which are generated by a fleshy computer called the brain? Or are we something apart from the functions of the brain? And yes, I agree. If we can create machines which rival our ability to be self-conscious and independent, will there be an ultimate battle where the robots rebel and try to extinguish us "inferior" creatures of flesh? This is the subject of much great science fiction. There's a great old movie, one of my favorites, called "Creation of the Humanoids" which explores this as well. I am a Christian. I believe in God. But I also believe in science. I believe God created everything. Including science. God doesn't just snap His fingers and create things through magic. He uses science. As I said before, I think the soul is a result of independent thought, feelings and a conscience. So yes, eventually through greater computing ability, robots will have independent thought, feelings and a conscience. So to answer your question directly, our consciousness is only a result of a more able brain. As a Christian you must believe in life after death. So if our self-consciousness is only a product of a functioning brain, what survives death? And if God the Father created life, how can a human as well? Wouldn't that be a contradiction? Would this make human beings into gods?
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Post by movieliker on Apr 28, 2019 19:57:18 GMT
I am a Christian. I believe in God. But I also believe in science. I believe God created everything. Including science. God doesn't just snap His fingers and create things through magic. He uses science. As I said before, I think the soul is a result of independent thought, feelings and a conscience. So yes, eventually through greater computing ability, robots will have independent thought, feelings and a conscience. So to answer your question directly, our consciousness is only a result of a more able brain. As a Christian you must believe in life after death. So if our self-consciousness is only a product of a functioning brain, what survives death? And if God the Father created life, how can a human as well? Wouldn't that be a contradiction? Would this make human beings into gods? If God wants us to have life after death, we will. The souls created by better brains are our spirits. Our spirits will exist after our bodies die. We have always been taught we should aspire to be like God. To be the best we can be. If that includes creating life, so be it. We already create biological life through sex. Why not mechanical life through technology? |
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Post by gameboy on Apr 28, 2019 22:52:37 GMT
As a Christian you must believe in life after death. So if our self-consciousness is only a product of a functioning brain, what survives death? And if God the Father created life, how can a human as well? Wouldn't that be a contradiction? Would this make human beings into gods? If God wants us to have life after death, we will. The souls created by better brains are our spirits. Our spirits will exist after our bodies die. We have always been taught we should aspire to be like God. To be the best we can be. If that includes creating life, so be it. We already create biological life through sex. Why not mechanical life through technology? Interesting, so souls are created by brains and endure after death? And to whom do robots pray?
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Post by movieliker on Apr 28, 2019 22:56:22 GMT
If God wants us to have life after death, we will. The souls created by better brains are our spirits. Our spirits will exist after our bodies die. We have always been taught we should aspire to be like God. To be the best we can be. If that includes creating life, so be it. We already create biological life through sex. Why not mechanical life through technology? Interesting, so souls are created by brains and endure after death? And to whom do robots pray? Souls are transcendental and intangible. That will probably be a decision the robots will have to make. |
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Post by gameboy on Apr 29, 2019 0:01:09 GMT
Interesting, so souls are created by brains and endure after death? And to whom do robots pray? Souls are transcendental and intangible. That will probably be a decision the robots will have to make. Do androids dream of electric sheep? 
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Apr 29, 2019 4:44:39 GMT
Complete, independent, self-aware, self-directed artificial intelligence --- yes. That is probably what the OP was referring to. But that is not the definition. Intelligence is relative. The intelligence of a fish or reptile is generally less than the intelligence of mammals. But fish and reptiles have some intelligence. Artificial Intelligence is anything that can think on its own. Computers have intelligence. Adding machines don't. Old fashion type writers didn't. But smartphones do. This is an interesting religious and existential question. If human beings are entirely physical, and consciousness comes completely from the material, not from a "soul" or factor separate from the brain, then we are no more than advanced robotic creatures made of flesh, not hardware. This is what interests me about AI. Can humans build a "machine" that is self aware and sees itself as an autonomous individual? Nature made us from flesh. Can we do the same with hardware and circuits?
Nature made us from the basic elements that comprise the universe. Seeing in terms of just flesh is limiting.
Take the physical and notion of separate soul out of the equation and what if it all comes to conscious thought. The thought is the transmitting energy, like radio waves, out into the universe. If humans are doing this, then so would A.I. Is this collective thought\consciousness a convergence into one whole state of being, that connects all and every wave of energy\vibration that has ever been streamed?
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Post by gameboy on Apr 29, 2019 13:58:13 GMT
This is an interesting religious and existential question. If human beings are entirely physical, and consciousness comes completely from the material, not from a "soul" or factor separate from the brain, then we are no more than advanced robotic creatures made of flesh, not hardware. This is what interests me about AI. Can humans build a "machine" that is self aware and sees itself as an autonomous individual? Nature made us from flesh. Can we do the same with hardware and circuits?
Nature made us from the basic elements that comprise the universe. Seeing in terms of just flesh is limiting.
Take the physical and notion of separate soul out of the equation and what if it all comes to conscious thought. The thought is the transmitting energy, like radio waves, out into the universe. If humans are doing this, then so would A.I. Is this collective thought\consciousness a convergence into one whole state of being, that connects all and every wave of energy\vibration that has ever been streamed? I use "flesh" because I'm comparing evolved creatures of flesh and blood to artificial "creatures" like robots and androids made of metal and circuits. "Collective thought/consciousness" sounds pantheistic to me. The universe itself is "god". Hindus and Buddhists teach there is a super soul.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on May 1, 2019 2:56:02 GMT
Nature made us from the basic elements that comprise the universe. Seeing in terms of just flesh is limiting.
Take the physical and notion of separate soul out of the equation and what if it all comes to conscious thought. The thought is the transmitting energy, like radio waves, out into the universe. If humans are doing this, then so would A.I. Is this collective thought\consciousness a convergence into one whole state of being, that connects all and every wave of energy\vibration that has ever been streamed? I use "flesh" because I'm comparing evolved creatures of flesh and blood to artificial "creatures" like robots and androids made of metal and circuits. "Collective thought/consciousness" sounds pantheistic to me. The universe itself is "god". Hindus and Buddhists teach there is a super soul. Mechas or Orgas.
Yes, the notion is pantheistic and that is what I was getting at. Consciousness is all streamed into one collective whole. It is not the flesh, or metal that is important, all impermanent, but the conscious awareness of mind that encapsulates within all and everything. We are the A.I. just as much as the A.I. is us.
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Post by gameboy on May 1, 2019 5:19:03 GMT
I use "flesh" because I'm comparing evolved creatures of flesh and blood to artificial "creatures" like robots and androids made of metal and circuits. "Collective thought/consciousness" sounds pantheistic to me. The universe itself is "god". Hindus and Buddhists teach there is a super soul. Mechas or Orgas.
Yes, the notion is pantheistic and that is what I was getting at. Consciousness is all streamed into one collective whole. It is not the flesh, or metal that is important, all impermanent, but the conscious awareness of mind that encapsulates within all and everything. We are the A.I. just as much as the A.I. is us.
Mechas and orgas. I had to look that up. But "orgas" is not standard. It makes sense though - mechanical versus organic. I'm wondering though if it takes nature millions of years to evolve a creature with identity and self awareness, maybe it's an impossible feat for man to do artificially. Sure, we can make a machine smarter than a human. But can we build one complex enough to actually be self aware and have independent thought?
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Post by Toasted Cheese on May 1, 2019 5:27:37 GMT
Mechas or Orgas.
Yes, the notion is pantheistic and that is what I was getting at. Consciousness is all streamed into one collective whole. It is not the flesh, or metal that is important, all impermanent, but the conscious awareness of mind that encapsulates within all and everything. We are the A.I. just as much as the A.I. is us.
Mechas and orgas. I had to look that up. But "orgas" is not standard. It makes sense though - mechanical versus organic. I'm wondering though if it takes nature millions of years to evolve a creature with identity and self awareness, maybe it's an impossible feat for man to do artificially. Sure, we can make a machine smarter than a human. But can we build one complex enough to actually be self aware and have independent thought? I was using the terms used in Spielberg's A.I. Artificial Intelligence.
Humankind can only place their own traits onto development of A.I. It depends on the purpose too. Technology is also advancing at a rapid rate. In the film A.I., the lead Mecha is designed and programmed to love. The independent thought could be born out of assimilation of experience in the A.I. that is coursed through memory channels. It will become energy transmitted, as per my original point.
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Post by gameboy on May 1, 2019 5:35:25 GMT
Mechas and orgas. I had to look that up. But "orgas" is not standard. It makes sense though - mechanical versus organic. I'm wondering though if it takes nature millions of years to evolve a creature with identity and self awareness, maybe it's an impossible feat for man to do artificially. Sure, we can make a machine smarter than a human. But can we build one complex enough to actually be self aware and have independent thought? I was using the terms used in Spielberg's A.I. Artificial Intelligence.
Humankind can only place their own traits onto development of A.I. It depends on the purpose too. Technology is also advancing at a rapid rate. In the film A.I., the lead Mecha is designed and programmed to love. The independent thought could be born out of assimilation of experience in the A.I. that is coursed through memory channels. It will become energy transmitted, as per my original point.
How would we know though? It may be programmed to act like it loves, but is there really anything in there? Do you get my meaning? It may just be "soulless" and void.
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Post by poelzig on May 1, 2019 5:55:24 GMT
I am religious and spiritual. I don't believe that. I agree it will be interesting to see. But furthermore, what if the robots we build are superior to us physically and mentally? Certainly we can build robots that have more strength, stamina, speed, quickness and durability. If AI results in them having independent thought, feelings and a conscience, couldn't they be a threat to humanity? That was the theme of The Orville (Season 2, episode 8 "Identity). The robots created by a biological race of humanoids revolt against slavery and abuse. They use their superior physical and mental abilities to exterminate their creators. Then they set out to exterminate all biological humanoid species in the galaxy --- including humans on Earth. I'm a materialist and an atheist. But I'm becoming more and more attracted to pantheism, and have a sense that while there is no "god", no anthropomorphic sky lord, there may be a reason and purpose to this universe and our existence. So I'm genuinely curious to hear what you think is the nature of our consciousness. Is there a "soul", an individual identity completely separate from the physical? Are we as beings just a series of thoughts which are generated by a fleshy computer called the brain? Or are we something apart from the functions of the brain? And yes, I agree. If we can create machines which rival our ability to be self-conscious and independent, will there be an ultimate battle where the robots rebel and try to extinguish us "inferior" creatures of flesh? This is the subject of much great science fiction. There's a great old movie, one of my favorites, called "Creation of the Humanoids" which explores this as well. Really? It took me several viewings to get through that movie. You didn't find it far too talky? Psychotronic Encyclopedia gave it an intriguing review so I was determined to watch it but it was tough. What do you like about it?
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Post by Toasted Cheese on May 1, 2019 6:13:05 GMT
I was using the terms used in Spielberg's A.I. Artificial Intelligence.
Humankind can only place their own traits onto development of A.I. It depends on the purpose too. Technology is also advancing at a rapid rate. In the film A.I., the lead Mecha is designed and programmed to love. The independent thought could be born out of assimilation of experience in the A.I. that is coursed through memory channels. It will become energy transmitted, as per my original point.
How would we know though? It may be programmed to act like it loves, but is there really anything in there? Do you get my meaning? It may just be "soulless" and void. Yes, I understand what you are saying, however, we would have to determine what exactly is creation? Mind over matter, matter over mind? I see mind and matter as all one.
The human mind is only projecting what it experiences. It will then project that onto A.I. and they are then only born of us. A mirror image or reflection of ourselves. We could program to kill, we could program to love, but whatever it is programmed to do, it is all thought\energy transmitted back out and into the universe. It will all transmit back, as the stream of consciousness.
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Post by gameboy on May 1, 2019 6:20:01 GMT
I'm a materialist and an atheist. But I'm becoming more and more attracted to pantheism, and have a sense that while there is no "god", no anthropomorphic sky lord, there may be a reason and purpose to this universe and our existence. So I'm genuinely curious to hear what you think is the nature of our consciousness. Is there a "soul", an individual identity completely separate from the physical? Are we as beings just a series of thoughts which are generated by a fleshy computer called the brain? Or are we something apart from the functions of the brain? And yes, I agree. If we can create machines which rival our ability to be self-conscious and independent, will there be an ultimate battle where the robots rebel and try to extinguish us "inferior" creatures of flesh? This is the subject of much great science fiction. There's a great old movie, one of my favorites, called "Creation of the Humanoids" which explores this as well. Really? It took me several viewings to get through that movie. You didn't find it far too talky? Psychotronic Encyclopedia gave it an intriguing review so I was determined to watch it but it was tough. What do you like about it? The criticism of the movie is that it's slow and boring, too intellectual. If you're looking for exciting sci-fi this is not it. The acting is also stale. They're not the greatest actors. But it is an important gem of a movie. It does explore the theme of this thread, that AI rivals humanity. The woman with the robot lover lol. It's famous as being Andy Warhol's favorite.
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Post by gameboy on May 1, 2019 6:22:49 GMT
How would we know though? It may be programmed to act like it loves, but is there really anything in there? Do you get my meaning? It may just be "soulless" and void. Yes, I understand what you are saying, however, we would have to determine what exactly is creation? Mind over matter, matter over mind? I see mind and matter as all one.
The human mind is only projecting what it experiences. It will then project that onto A.I. and they are then only born of us. A mirror image or reflection of ourselves. We could program to kill, we could program to love, but whatever it is programmed to do, it is all thought\energy transmitted back out and into the universe. It will all transmit back, as the stream of consciousness. However the true test is whether it acts out on its own. If it decides to kill us then we have been successful at creating a robot with a mind and will of its own.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on May 1, 2019 6:28:24 GMT
Yes, I understand what you are saying, however, we would have to determine what exactly is creation? Mind over matter, matter over mind? I see mind and matter as all one.
The human mind is only projecting what it experiences. It will then project that onto A.I. and they are then only born of us. A mirror image or reflection of ourselves. We could program to kill, we could program to love, but whatever it is programmed to do, it is all thought\energy transmitted back out and into the universe. It will all transmit back, as the stream of consciousness. However the true test is whether it acts out on its own. If it decides to kill us then we have been successful at creating a robot with a mind and will of its own. That is the issue. It will just project our own behavior and survival will also be key. That is also part of the point of Spielberg's A.I., but eventually, A.I. start to take over from humans and create the A.I. themselves. Humans will become obsolete. That fears many, because they can only think in terms of physical body.
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Post by poelzig on May 1, 2019 6:32:53 GMT
Really? It took me several viewings to get through that movie. You didn't find it far too talky? Psychotronic Encyclopedia gave it an intriguing review so I was determined to watch it but it was tough. What do you like about it? The criticism of the movie is that it's slow and boring, too intellectual. If you're looking for exciting sci-fi this is not it. The acting is also stale. They're not the greatest actors. But it is an important gem of a movie. It does explore the theme of this thread, that AI rivals humanity. The woman with the robot lover lol. It's famous as being Andy Warhol's favorite. The theme was surprising to me I must admit. The acting was painful tho and it's so dry and talky. I was expecting something different because of the title . Could have used some action. Of any kind. Or maybe some mutant attacks. I must have dozed because the woman with the robot lover only sounds vaguely familiar. It has been a year or so since I made it thru the whole movie tho. Did you like it the first time you watched it?
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Post by gameboy on May 1, 2019 7:42:55 GMT
The criticism of the movie is that it's slow and boring, too intellectual. If you're looking for exciting sci-fi this is not it. The acting is also stale. They're not the greatest actors. But it is an important gem of a movie. It does explore the theme of this thread, that AI rivals humanity. The woman with the robot lover lol. It's famous as being Andy Warhol's favorite. The theme was surprising to me I must admit. The acting was painful tho and it's so dry and talky. I was expecting something different because of the title . Could have used some action. Of any kind. Or maybe some mutant attacks. I must have dozed because the woman with the robot lover only sounds vaguely familiar. It has been a year or so since I made it thru the whole movie tho. Did you like it the first time you watched it? Yes I liked it. In LA it used to be common fare on local late night tv horror/sci-fi shows. However in the past few years it's disappeared.
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Post by gameboy on May 1, 2019 7:46:25 GMT
However the true test is whether it acts out on its own. If it decides to kill us then we have been successful at creating a robot with a mind and will of its own. That is the issue. It will just project our own behavior and survival will also be key. That is also part of the point of Spielberg's A.I., but eventually, A.I. start to take over from humans and create the A.I. themselves. Humans will become obsolete. That fears many, because they can only think in terms of physical body. The next step would be to transfer human beings into android bodies. That is if science learns there is a "self" inside us which can be removed and transplanted.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on May 1, 2019 8:11:40 GMT
That is the issue. It will just project our own behavior and survival will also be key. That is also part of the point of Spielberg's A.I., but eventually, A.I. start to take over from humans and create the A.I. themselves. Humans will become obsolete. That fears many, because they can only think in terms of physical body. The next step would be to transfer human beings into android bodies. That is if science learns there is a "self" inside us which can be removed and transplanted. Self or Soul, it is all intangible. All there is, is consciousness. Self is already what we believe in, as body awareness only.
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