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Post by Skaathar on May 1, 2019 16:19:15 GMT
The infinity stones I mean, they should not have given them back after they've used them. Not only was it useless, it probably guaranteed the doom of those different timezone instances.
Let me explain.
Originally there was just one single timeline. We'll call this the main timeline. When they went back and grabbed the stones from the past, each of those timezones split-off into their own individual alternate timeline/reality because something was changed in them. Therefore to make sure they didn't break off into alternate timelines, the Avengers figured they'd bring back the stones to the exact moment they took them so that nothing seems to have changed and they don't end up breaking off into alternate realities. Sounds good so far right?
Except that by bringing back the stones to their original timezones and by making sure they stayed in the main timeline, that basically guarantees that they all result in "the snap" happening. That's what happens in the main timeline: Thanos wipes out half the universe and then destroys the stones.
Now you might say "but the Avengers fixed that by snapping all those people back to existence again". Well, not quite, not in the main timeline anyway. (At least this is how I understood it)
By bringing infinity stones from different timezones back into the present and then using it to revive half the universe's population, the Avengers effectively split themselves off into a different timeline (because they introduced something that was foreign to their timeline). They made an alternate timeline. So that ending of Endgame where they get to bring everyone back? That's now in an alternate reality. It never happened in the main timeline - that one still ends with half the population gone.
So the Avengers never should have brought back the stones to their original timezones. Yes, it would have made numerous alternate timelines but at least those timelines would be able to avoid "the snap". Because if that timeline is missing an infinity stone or two, Thanos would never be able to complete the IG in those alternate realities.
P.S. - there are now 4 timelines currently active in the MCU:
1. The main timeline that still ends up with half the universe decimated.
2. The new alternate timeline where the Avengers win and bring back half the universe.
3. The alternate timeline where Loki escaped with the Tesseract.
4. The alternate timeline where Cap is still alive in the past and marries Peggy.
*This means that there should have been no way that old Cap could have had his farewell talk with Falcon since they exist in different realities. .
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Post by Rey Kahuka on May 1, 2019 16:24:09 GMT
I don't know whether to agree or disagree with you. The rules for time travel in Endgame made no sense to begin with, so I'll just take your word for it.
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Post by hobowar on May 1, 2019 16:31:40 GMT
Wouldn't bringing everyone back after five years cripple the economy?
#Thanosdidnothingwrong
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Post by President Ackbar™ on May 1, 2019 16:31:46 GMT
Agreed, but for slightly different reasons.
I really hate the modern day trend of over-explaining everything.
Just get the stones from "the past", use them, and be done with it.
Not every single detail needs to be accounted for.
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Post by Skaathar on May 1, 2019 16:49:13 GMT
I don't know whether to agree or disagree with you. The rules for time travel in Endgame made no sense to begin with, so I'll just take your word for it. The way I understood it from the Ancient One's explanation, there was only one timeline (indicated by her one long yellow line). But the moment you try to change something in that timeline then it will break off into an alternate reality. So the reason why they wanted to give back those stones at the exact moment they took them was to make it seem like nothing changed at that moment, therefore not resulting in an alternate timeline. But by bringing all those stones from the past back into the present then reviving half the universe, a present where the stones were already supposed to have been destroyed, they changed their own timeline which would have resulted in them breaking off into an alternate reality. So they only saved their own alternate reality. The main timeline still ends up with half the universe dying and by bringing back the stones to their respective time zones they guaranteed those timezones all stick to the main timline and end up in the Snappening.
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Post by PreachCaleb on May 1, 2019 18:14:13 GMT
I don't know whether to agree or disagree with you. The rules for time travel in Endgame made no sense to begin with, so I'll just take your word for it. The way I understood it from the Ancient One's explanation, there was only one timeline (indicated by her one long yellow line). But the moment you try to change something in that timeline then it will break off into an alternate reality. So the reason why they wanted to give back those stones at the exact moment they took them was to make it seem like nothing changed at that moment, therefore not resulting in an alternate timeline. But by bringing all those stones from the past back into the present then reviving half the universe, a present where the stones were already supposed to have been destroyed, they changed their own timeline which would have resulted in them breaking off into an alternate reality. So they only saved their own alternate reality. The main timeline still ends up with half the universe dying and by bringing back the stones to their respective time zones they guaranteed those timezones all stick to the main timline and end up in the Snappening. She said if the stones were taken from her time, then it would split the timeline, not that any change creates a new timeline.
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Post by Skaathar on May 1, 2019 18:20:14 GMT
The way I understood it from the Ancient One's explanation, there was only one timeline (indicated by her one long yellow line). But the moment you try to change something in that timeline then it will break off into an alternate reality. So the reason why they wanted to give back those stones at the exact moment they took them was to make it seem like nothing changed at that moment, therefore not resulting in an alternate timeline. But by bringing all those stones from the past back into the present then reviving half the universe, a present where the stones were already supposed to have been destroyed, they changed their own timeline which would have resulted in them breaking off into an alternate reality. So they only saved their own alternate reality. The main timeline still ends up with half the universe dying and by bringing back the stones to their respective time zones they guaranteed those timezones all stick to the main timline and end up in the Snappening. She said if the stones were taken from her time, then it would split the timeline, not that any change creates a new timeline. Only because they were specifically talking about the stones at that point, which is why she specifically mentioned the stone. But the quantum physics logic they used indicates they needed to leave things as they were otherwise alternate timelines would pop all over the place. Because thinking that alternate timelines would exist ONLY if it were the stones that were removed is just plain silly and would destroy any logic they had regarding time travel.
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Post by PreachCaleb on May 1, 2019 18:27:11 GMT
She said if the stones were taken from her time, then it would split the timeline, not that any change creates a new timeline. Only because they were specifically talking about the stones at that point, which is why she specifically mentioned the stone. But the quantum physics logic they used indicates they needed to leave things as they were otherwise alternate timelines would pop all over the place. Because thinking that alternate timelines would exist ONLY if it were the stones that were removed is just plain silly and would destroy any logic they had regarding time travel. Actually The Ancient One specifically says: "The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one of the stones, and that flow splits. " It's the removal of the stones that will split the timeline.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2019 18:28:43 GMT
It seems to me like everybody was brought back in the main timeline. In Endgame terms, it's like 2025 or so because of when the snap happened and the 5 year gap. So everybody involved in the final battle was either of that timeline or they're from 2014 if they're Thanos + his army, or they were resurrected from the snap if they're on the Avenger's side but not in the movie until that point. Except Valkyrie, who somehow snagged her winged horse in the midst of all this.
The alternative timelines all occur off screen. I think in Captain America's case, he lived the rest of his natural life in an alternate timeline but the moment he returned to the main timeline as an old man, he's back into the world where he never married Carter.
It's my impression that all timelines outside the main one fade when they're no longer occupied with visitors from the current one. So even though Loki picked up the Tesseract and escaped, in the main timeline he's still dead.
I think they didn't need to bring the stones back where they got them from, but where they came from does seem like ideal hiding spots. The Avengers knew the risks by collecting them and it very seriously almost backfired by gathering them all in one place for somebody to take. If not only for the strategy of hiding the stones, by taking them back, it means no other realities spun out. It'd be like the stones never left their original spot, except that there's no Thanos to got to Voromir or decimate Xandar.
At the end of the movie, I think there's only one timeline. Everything else kind of existed within that timeline but it's still the main one.
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Post by Skaathar on May 1, 2019 19:10:25 GMT
Only because they were specifically talking about the stones at that point, which is why she specifically mentioned the stone. But the quantum physics logic they used indicates they needed to leave things as they were otherwise alternate timelines would pop all over the place. Because thinking that alternate timelines would exist ONLY if it were the stones that were removed is just plain silly and would destroy any logic they had regarding time travel. Actually The Ancient One specifically says: "The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one of the stones, and that flow splits. " It's the removal of the stones that will split the timeline. I'll have to rewatch the movie to confirm, but if this is true then it's about the stupidest time travel theory I've ever seen in any movie. It also means that Thanos already created a broken timeline by destroying the stones. |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on May 1, 2019 19:33:02 GMT
I don't know whether to agree or disagree with you. The rules for time travel in Endgame made no sense to begin with, so I'll just take your word for it. They absolutely made no sense. After a while I stopped giving a fuck and just enjoyed the movie.
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Post by hobowar on May 1, 2019 20:46:44 GMT
I don't know whether to agree or disagree with you. The rules for time travel in Endgame made no sense to begin with, so I'll just take your word for it. They absolutely made no sense . After a while I stopped giving a fuck and just enjoyed the movie. I think the writers were counting on this.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 2, 2019 0:08:20 GMT
The goal was never to stop the snap happening.
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Post by hoskotafe3 on May 2, 2019 2:09:04 GMT
The big part most of you are missing: the Thanos who was snapped out of existence at the end was from 2014: before the original snap. So even if everything else works: that doesn't. He no longer existed to make the first snap.
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Post by politicidal on May 2, 2019 12:51:17 GMT
Hah! Perhaps not. Now this is a huge “if” giving the writers more credit than they deserve. Suppose it’s just a lead-in for alternative realities to be explored in the mcu’s future.
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Post by kuatorises on May 2, 2019 13:50:11 GMT
The infinity stones I mean, they should not have given them back after they've used them. Not only was it useless, it probably guaranteed the doom of those different timezone instances. Let me explain. Originally there was just one single timeline. We'll call this the main timeline. When they went back and grabbed the stones from the past, each of those timezones split-off into their own individual alternate timeline/reality because something was changed in them. Therefore to make sure they didn't break off into alternate timelines, the Avengers figured they'd bring back the stones to the exact moment they took them so that nothing seems to have changed and they don't end up breaking off into alternate realities. Sounds good so far right? Except that by bringing back the stones to their original timezones and by making sure they stayed in the main timeline, that basically guarantees that they all result in "the snap" happening. That's what happens in the main timeline: Thanos wipes out half the universe and then destroys the stones. Now you might say "but the Avengers fixed that by snapping all those people back to existence again". Well, not quite, not in the main timeline anyway. (At least this is how I understood it) By bringing infinity stones from different timezones back into the present and then using it to revive half the universe's population, the Avengers effectively split themselves off into a different timeline (because they introduced something that was foreign to their timeline). They made an alternate timeline. So that ending of Endgame where they get to bring everyone back? That's now in an alternate reality. It never happened in the main timeline - that one still ends with half the population gone. So the Avengers never should have brought back the stones to their original timezones. Yes, it would have made numerous alternate timelines but at least those timelines would be able to avoid "the snap". Because if that timeline is missing an infinity stone or two, Thanos would never be able to complete the IG in those alternate realities.
P.S. - there are now 4 timelines currently active in the MCU:1. The main timeline that still ends up with half the universe decimated. 2. The new alternate timeline where the Avengers win and bring back half the universe. 3. The alternate timeline where Loki escaped with the Tesseract. 4. The alternate timeline where Cap is still alive in the past and marries Peggy. *This means that there should have been no way that old Cap could have had his farewell talk with Falcon since they exist in different realities. . I don't think so. The confusion over how time travel works in this movie aside, I think they were making it pretty clear that there aren't multiple timelines by the fact that Cap shows up as an old man. Falcon even says something along the lines of being sad that the world never got to know Capt. America; because he doesn't exist in their timeline anymore.
That being said, if this is meant as a way to create alternate realities and incorporate them in future movies, I would be totally cool with that.
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Post by Spike Del Rey on May 2, 2019 14:02:22 GMT
I don't know whether to agree or disagree with you. The rules for time travel in Endgame made no sense to begin with, so I'll just take your word for it. They absolutely made no sense. After a while I stopped giving a fuck and just enjoyed the movie.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on May 2, 2019 14:11:50 GMT
The big part most of you are missing: the Thanos who was snapped out of existence at the end was from 2014: before the original snap. So even if everything else works: that doesn't. He no longer existed to make the first snap. Here's the thing: 1) In one case they're saying if you go back in time you change things. 2) But then they're also saying you're not changing things because instead what you're really doing is creating a separate reality, not changing the past.
So, if you believe the first you're right. If you believe the second then you're wrong.
I have third option for you; which is the one I decided to follow about ten minutes after they started talking alternate realities...
"Who cares?" and I enjoy the movie anyway. Its clear they got all that stuff either wrong or they didn't know how to keep it straight so it comes across as confusing. Still a fun movie though.
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