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Post by Aj_June on May 10, 2019 11:19:55 GMT
First of all, don't make this thread into 'the show has no logic' bullshit. This is just a fantasy show and not a documentary. Considering that the harsh conditions in the extreme north persist even when it is not the winter season for the rest of the Westeros, I find it a bit perplexing that Tormund and his wildings will return to the extreme north. The army of the dead probably destroyed most of the north from the wall to Winterfell and so there may be lack of human population in those areas. Areas previously held by House Umber, for example, may not have enough population and thus the wildings can be peacefully settled in those areas without causing any conflicts. So shouldn't the wildings have stayed in the areas which are more hospitable than the extreme north? That said, home is after all home. So maybe Tormund and the rest of the wildings see the extreme north as their home and want to remain in their home. Perhaps that is the explanation as to why they want to return north of the wall. What are your thoughts on this issue?
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Post by Winter_King on May 10, 2019 11:29:36 GMT
They are just setting up the new spin off:  |
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Post by Winter_King on May 10, 2019 11:31:07 GMT
Seriously, I'm assuming that the White Walkers had something to do with the climate. Once they're gone, Winter seems to be far more mild than before. So maybe the North beyond the wall is less hostile.
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on May 10, 2019 11:36:05 GMT
First of all, don't make this thread into 'the show has no logic' bullshit. This is just a fantasy show and not a documentary. Considering that the harsh conditions in the extreme north persist even when it is not the winter season for the rest of the Westeros, I find it a bit perplexing that Tormund and his wildings will return to the extreme north. The army of the dead probably destroyed most of the north from the wall to Winterfell and so there may be lack of human population in those areas. Areas previously held by House Umber, for example, may not have enough population and thus the wildings can be peacefully settled in those areas without causing any conflicts. So shouldn't the wildings have stayed in the areas which are more hospitable than the extreme north? That said, home is after all home. So maybe Tormund and the rest of the wildings see the extreme north as their home and want to remain in their home. Perhaps that is the explanation as to why they want to return north of the wall. What are your thoughts on this issue?
People have been living inside the Arctic Circle in our world for umpteen thousands of years, including in North America where there was plenty of room southward, but they stayed up there anyway. I guess it's just home and the areas where they lived just north of the Wall are probably not that much different than land just south of the Wall where the Umbars resided.
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Post by Aj_June on May 10, 2019 11:45:51 GMT
Seriously, I'm assuming that the White Walkers had something to do with the climate. Once they're gone, Winter seems to be far more mild than before. So maybe the North beyond the wall is less hostile. Th I think I agree with what Marendil just posted. The conditions of areas just immediately north of the wall may not be significantly different from the conditions of the areas just immediately south of the wall.
Although some part the land of always winter has been known to be inhabited by human beings. And you have a very good point when saying that White Walkers have something to do with the extremely harsh cold.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 10, 2019 11:46:47 GMT
What would be the reason for people to stay anywhere that is harsh.
I think Tor!and have a good reason and it's kinda ironic that all that time spent keeping the out became pointless.
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Post by Aj_June on May 10, 2019 12:12:25 GMT
First of all, don't make this thread into 'the show has no logic' bullshit. This is just a fantasy show and not a documentary. Considering that the harsh conditions in the extreme north persist even when it is not the winter season for the rest of the Westeros, I find it a bit perplexing that Tormund and his wildings will return to the extreme north. The army of the dead probably destroyed most of the north from the wall to Winterfell and so there may be lack of human population in those areas. Areas previously held by House Umber, for example, may not have enough population and thus the wildings can be peacefully settled in those areas without causing any conflicts. So shouldn't the wildings have stayed in the areas which are more hospitable than the extreme north? That said, home is after all home. So maybe Tormund and the rest of the wildings see the extreme north as their home and want to remain in their home. Perhaps that is the explanation as to why they want to return north of the wall. What are your thoughts on this issue?
People have been living inside the Arctic Circle in our world for umpteen thousands of years, including in North America where there was plenty of room southward, but they stayed up there anyway. I guess it's just home and the areas where they lived just north of the Wall are probably not that much different than land just south of the Wall where the Umbars resided. Unless the world the GRRM has invented is not spherical, I have one weak explanation for the seemingly contradictory nature of the climate. Many of us might misleadingly believe that Sothoryos lies south of the equator. But if that were the case then Sothoryos will start becoming colder as you go down. Although no one has gone to the extreme ends of Sothoryos, intense heat is one of the reasons for that. They have not provided us with a complete map of that continent but unsubstantiated claims are that the continent is twice the size of Essos and there are boiling deserts as you move further south. So it could be that all 3 continents lie north of equator or most parts of Sothoryos lies north of the equator. The parts south of the equator are inhospitable or totally submerged in sea.
I said weak explanation because there are other factors that I currently fail to understand although I believe GRRM can come up with explanations later. For example, the winter seasons are on average of vastly different time lengths. Some winters could end very quickly but some could last longer.
Edit: The unsubstantiated claim is that the continent Sothoryos is twice the size of Westeros and not Essos.
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on May 10, 2019 12:31:18 GMT
People have been living inside the Arctic Circle in our world for umpteen thousands of years, including in North America where there was plenty of room southward, but they stayed up there anyway. I guess it's just home and the areas where they lived just north of the Wall are probably not that much different than land just south of the Wall where the Umbars resided. Unless the world the GRRM has invented is not spherical, I have one weak explanation for the seemingly contradictory nature of the climate. Many of us might misleadingly believe that Sothoryos lies south of the equator. But if that were the case then Sothoryos will start becoming colder as you go down. Although no one has gone to the extreme ends of Sothoryos, intense heat is one of the reasons for that. They have not provided us with a complete map of that continent but unsubstantiated claims are that the continent is twice the size of Essos and there are boiling deserts as you move further south. So it could be that all 3 continents lie north of equator or most parts of Sothoryos lies north of the equator. The parts south of the equator are inhospitable or totally submerged in sea.
I said weak explanation because there are other factors that I currently fail to understand although I believe GRRM can come up with explanations later. For example, the winter seasons are on average of vastly different time lengths. Some winters could end very quickly but some could last longer.
At one point I thought the bizarre seasonal patterns were due to it being a planet with a very different axial tilt and orbit eccentricity, but came across something from GRRM that it was magically induced and either more from him or speculation from others that it might change after the WW threat was dealt with.
I recall looking at speculative maps where the extreme north connected to a continent on the other side, perhaps Essos off the eastern edge of the known world.
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northernlad
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Post by northernlad on May 10, 2019 13:46:03 GMT
They are just setting up the new spin off: Oh I'd watch the hell out of that!
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Post by Marv on May 10, 2019 13:48:06 GMT
I assume the cold is no problem for the wildlings. They’re used to harsh weather. The reason they fled south was the White Walkers.
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northernlad
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Post by northernlad on May 10, 2019 13:48:23 GMT
Anyway, back on topic...I'm a little perplexed by this too. I mean, I guess it's like your said, it's his home and he loves it there. But to me, from what the show portrayed, it never seemed like a pleasant place. It just seems that people would get along better farther south.
And I'm still questioning whether The Night's Watch will still be needed or the wall...what's left of it anyway?
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on May 10, 2019 13:55:52 GMT
And I'm still questioning whether The Night's Watch will still be needed or the wall...what's left of it anyway? The Night's Watch was created to guard the Wall against White Walkers. No White Walkers, no need for a Wall or for a Watch. It evolved into preventing wildlings from coming over to raid south but they seem to have gone the way of the Dothraki and Unsullied, eaten up by the brilliant tactics of the Battle of Winterfell. Daenerys is busy finishing off the Unsullied; I suppose it won't take too long. How many wildlings were left around Tormund after the battle? Did they show any? All this supposes what animated the Night King has disappeared but… it was there before the Night King was made so I suppose it still exists, somehow.
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on May 10, 2019 14:00:20 GMT
Anyway, back on topic...I'm a little perplexed by this too. I mean, I guess it's like your said, it's his home and he loves it there. But to me, from what the show portrayed, it never seemed like a pleasant place. It just seems that people would get along better farther south. And I'm still questioning whether The Night's Watch will still be needed or the wall...what's left of it anyway? They don't like 'kneeling' and they're used to it I guess. 'Better frozen and free than nicer and kneeling' may be their motto.
They defeated the threat last time and it came back, it might be they're not willing to take the chance it's gone forever this time. Most all the Wall is intact, they could probably build a new castle in the gap.
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Post by Aj_June on May 10, 2019 16:06:31 GMT
Anyway, back on topic...I'm a little perplexed by this too. I mean, I guess it's like your said, it's his home and he loves it there. But to me, from what the show portrayed, it never seemed like a pleasant place. It just seems that people would get along better farther south. And I'm still questioning whether The Night's Watch will still be needed or the wall...what's left of it anyway? They don't like 'kneeling' and they're used to it I guess. 'Better frozen and free than nicer and kneeling' may be their motto.
They defeated the threat last time and it came back, it might be they're not willing to take the chance it's gone forever this time. Most all the Wall is intact, they could probably build a new castle in the gap.
I have not thought about it in a serious way but I have to admit that if Walkers came two times then they can come back again? Some legends say that they come from the land of always winter. Although the children of the forest are credited for their creation and we do not have sufficient evidence that the children survive, there may be other ways. May be the babies they took are still living and because they are living in the land of always winter, NK's death might not have killed them as that land is far away and a place where WW's power are the strongest.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 10, 2019 16:34:36 GMT
They don't like 'kneeling' and they're used to it I guess. 'Better frozen and free than nicer and kneeling' may be their motto.
They defeated the threat last time and it came back, it might be they're not willing to take the chance it's gone forever this time. Most all the Wall is intact, they could probably build a new castle in the gap.
I have not thought about it in a serious way but I have to admit that if Walkers came two times then they come back again? Some legends say that they come from the land of always winter. Although the children of the forest are credited for their creation and we do not have sufficient evidence that the children survive, there may be other ways. May be the babies they took are still living and because they are living in the land of always winter, NK's death might not have killed them as that land is far away and a place where WW's power are the strongest. [The book is different regarding their origin. The NK was created by the children of the forest in the show who creates the rest of them. In the book the NK comes after the Others and after the Wall is built. So I think there is finality for the TV show if not the book and the book could eventually tie it all together too. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 10, 2019 16:36:39 GMT
Anyway, back on topic...I'm a little perplexed by this too. I mean, I guess it's like your said, it's his home and he loves it there. But to me, from what the show portrayed, it never seemed like a pleasant place. It just seems that people would get along better farther south. And I'm still questioning whether The Night's Watch will still be needed or the wall...what's left of it anyway? They may be needed to perhaps protect property right. Wildlings would still be border crossing and possibly for raids. It’s a very diverse group. |
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Post by Aj_June on May 10, 2019 18:02:19 GMT
Anyway, back on topic...I'm a little perplexed by this too. I mean, I guess it's like your said, it's his home and he loves it there. But to me, from what the show portrayed, it never seemed like a pleasant place. It just seems that people would get along better farther south. And I'm still questioning whether The Night's Watch will still be needed or the wall...what's left of it anyway? They may be needed to perhaps protect property right. Wildlings would still be border crossing and possibly for raids. It’s a very diverse group. Good point, Smithy. Sometimes we tend to assume things in simplistic ways and don't look deeper into the issues. Wildlings are brave and proud people but nonetheless, they could still become belligerent in the future. Especially given that they are not very educated. So yeah, decisions can't be taken on what is apparent at the moment. It is not that it wouldn't make sense to reinstate the Night's Watch. And it was my fav organisation anyway.
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Post by xystophoros on May 11, 2019 2:55:36 GMT
There is no logical, orbital or planetary explanation for the widely varying seasons. GRRM is on record saying that.
In the real world there are people who eke out a living in arctic conditions, but what we’ve seen of the wildlings doesn’t really match that lifestyle. Real-world arctic tribes are nomadic and survive by hunting seals and other aquatic animals, as there are no forests and almost no reliable land-dwelling game that far north.
The Terror did a great job showing how brutal and inhospitable terrain like that can be, and how it’s a death sentence for anyone who doesn’t know how to live off the land.
I think ultimately the wildlings went back to “the real north” for cultural reasons. It’s their home. That life makes sense to them. It may seem harsh to other people, but for them it’s just a way of life and the natural order of things.
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on May 11, 2019 4:14:23 GMT
They may be needed to perhaps protect property right. Wildlings would still be border crossing and possibly for raids. It’s a very diverse group. Good point, Smithy. Sometimes we tend to assume things in simplistic ways and don't look deeper into the issues. Wildlings are brave and proud people but nonetheless, they could still become belligerent in the future. Especially given that they are not very educated. So yeah, decisions can't be taken on what is apparent at the moment. It is not that it wouldn't make sense to reinstate the Night's Watch. And it was my fav organisation anyway. I sometimes find it interesting that everyone seems to have forgotten that Tormund led a team that extinguished pretty much every single man, woman and child in The Gift outside of Olly, and at least some of them were eaten.
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Post by Aj_June on May 11, 2019 5:12:25 GMT
Good point, Smithy. Sometimes we tend to assume things in simplistic ways and don't look deeper into the issues. Wildlings are brave and proud people but nonetheless, they could still become belligerent in the future. Especially given that they are not very educated. So yeah, decisions can't be taken on what is apparent at the moment. It is not that it wouldn't make sense to reinstate the Night's Watch. And it was my fav organisation anyway. I sometimes find it interesting that everyone seems to have forgotten that Tormund led a team that extinguished pretty much every single man, woman and child in The Gift outside of Olly, and at least some of them were eaten. Honestly true. I didn't remember it amidst all the funny jokes he has been telling in the last few seasons. Them eating people part is outright scary to be reminded about. I certainly wish they get a proper Night's Watch reinstated again.
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