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Post by Nalkarj on May 14, 2019 0:16:32 GMT
Had a few quibbles, but on the whole loved it.
That ending is... Well, you guys know me by now. It’s the kind of thing that I love. It’s just great.
Will comment more when I get home.
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Post by politicidal on May 14, 2019 1:44:36 GMT
Glad to hear it.
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Post by Nalkarj on May 14, 2019 2:21:49 GMT
This post will be long. Stuff I liked: That final scene. Loved it like crazy. I’m an emotional mush and a hopeless, hopeless romantic, so things like that get me. It also helps that I love the ’40s, that Cap is by far my favorite of the MCU heroes, and that the girl who plays his girlfriend is so beautiful. Choosing “It’s Been a Long, Long Time” is so sweet, and so perfect, and… God. It strikes this emotional chord for me that I can’t really explain, but it’s the same something that explains my love for anything set in the era. It’s a perfectly executed scene, too. What superhero movie ends like this, rather than some generic blow ’er up action sequence? It’s just brilliant. The final battle (speaking of blow ’er up action, but this one isn’t generic). Wowzer. What a marvel. Everyone had a role to play and did a great job with it. It looked unbelievably impressive and kept me on the edge of my seat throughout. A pal of mine was annoyed at the scene where all the women form their own little auxiliary or whatever because it was too on-the-nose, and, sure, it was, but it only lasted a minute and didn’t bother me. It wasn’t particularly surprising, but Iron Man’s sacrifice is exactly what it should have been. It also has weight and depth to it—we feel, for once, these people can die, and by God we care about them. One of the greatest things about the MCU has been that they’re not generic comic book movies. Most of them have heart and soul— Iron Man, The First Avenger, The Winter Soldier, Infinity War, this. I’d be equally interested in these characters just sitting around and talking as in them fighting baddies. They’re just good, likeable people (particularly Cap). Speaking of Stark/IM, this one redeemed him for me. He’s a full, developed character here, and I liked him. That scene of everyone at his funeral and “proof Tony Stark has a heart”—wonderful. The beginning. I came into the theater late (typical me), so I missed the first five minutes or so, but the Russos and their screenwriters actually gave consequence to killing off half the population. One of my criticisms of Infinity War is that it didn’t show that consequence, but this did—oh, this did. But it’s not cheap, either, which it easily could have been (exploiting tragedies like 9/11 for pop entertainment). The superhero stuff is a means by which the directors can explore the meaning of tragedy. There are so many little moments like these, where it’s not action—it’s human warmth and care. This is a real movie-movie, like Donner’s Superman, Nolan’s Batmans, Raimi’s Spideys: it can be enjoyed by people who aren’t interested in superheroes. Killing Thanos off that early. I wasn’t surprised by this movie, on the whole (except for that last scene)—it hit plot-points I could see coming—and I usually like to be surprised by movies. (Not Shyamalan-like twists, I hasten to add—but small surprises, [e.g.] unexpected dialogue or shot-choices, that mean that the filmmaker is ahead of you, rather than you being ahead of him.) The scene reminded me of The Last Jedi—and, while I mostly didn’t like TLJ, this surprise made it work because Thanos isn’t a hero as Luke Skywalker is. In retrospect, though, of course that’s what Thanos would do afterwards, his goal accomplished. Not bringing Loki and all the people killed pre-snap back. It adds weight to the thing. Antman. He was great. I really ended up liking him. Again, I am an absolute emotional mush, so I thought the scene where Thor meets up with his mom was very touching. It made me think of my mom—Mother’s Day being just passed and all that. And, well, I’m all silly, but y’know. I like Thor: The Dark World more than Thor because of the stuff with his mom. Thor. The humor made me laugh, but none of it seemed out-of-place, as Thor: Ragnarok did. Every element is cohesive. Cap grabbing Thor’s hammer was one of those great movie moments that put a big smile on my face. Superhero movies, at their best, have this unique power to do that—Chris Reeve flying up to grab a falling Margot Kidder being the best. “Don’t worry, I’ve got you.” “You’ve got me? Who’s got you?” The cameos by Robert Redford and weirdly made-up Michael Douglas. That final scene. It’s great. _________________________________ What I didn’t like: The length. It went on forever and easily could have been broken up into two movies, or at least provided a merciful intermission. There were parts in the middle when I got bored. Related to “bored,” there were parts during which I got really confused. That may be because I haven’t seen all of the series, but I thought the movie did a good job explaining stuff that I’d missed (related to Antman and Sherlock Holmes, mostly—Chris Pratt and his annoying gang of aliens don’t play much of a part here). Mostly it was just the cutting between the scenes on the planet, in New York, and in Asgard. The planet stuff went on forever, and I found it boring. I also got confused when it seemed like it was treading over the same ground the last movie had. Also: time travel. The writers didn’t seem to get it either, so I just went along with it. But didn’t the snap require all of the gems? So why couldn’t they have gone back and just taken out one of the gems? Yes, I’m sure there’s a reason. Captain Marvel. OK, I haven’t seen her movie. But is she this boring in it? She’s Superman without the personality. She has this permanent grimace on her face like she just smelled garbage or something. She’s not in it much, but there are these good female characters in this series (the girl on the horse, for example), and they give a whole movie to this dame? I didn’t think Scarlett Johansson’s death was as emotional as they intended. Nor Hawkeye’s reunion with his family. Hawkeye was probably at his least interesting here. Thanos. I liked that early death surprise, as mentioned, but they did the big purple guy a disservice: he was a complex, interesting character in the first one, and here he’s a plot device. He even has clichéd villain dialogue to go along with it. (Also: I laughed because what he did in the movie wasn’t too far removed from what he did in fake “spoilers” I wrote as a joke here.) Also, where’d his Narnia-esque villain army come from at the end? One of the guys is his second-in-command, yes (“I herald the coming of the great Thanos”), but I’m talking about the monsters at the end. Of course they had to be there to fight our heroes, but who/what are they? ____________________ My criticisms probably sound harsher than I intended; I loved the beginning and end and only really wasn’t enamored by the middle, and even then the last scene restored so much good will in me that this is very high up there in my rankings for this series. Infinity War is in some ways the better movie, but this is more emotional and personal, with meaning and warmth and hope and love. I preferred this one. Also, have I mentioned the final scene and the girl who plays Cap’s girlfriend?
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Post by Skaathar on May 14, 2019 3:22:30 GMT
Regarding your observation about Captain Marvel, I'm sorry to say that I actually found her more interesting and better handled in this movie than in her own. So if you found her boring here, well, good luck watching her in her own movie.
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Post by darkpast on May 14, 2019 3:34:10 GMT
if only it was an ending , it keeps going and going and going
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Post by Rey Kahuka on May 14, 2019 12:44:19 GMT
I always appreciate when people put thought into their posts, this was a joy to read. I didn't think you were overly critical, and I agree with most of your assessment. ScarJo's death lacked impact I think because it was just a repeat of Gamora's death. We just saw this happen last time out, hard to get us again with the same trick. And yes, Captain Marvel has been mishandled as a character thus far, through no fault of the actress. The good news is she can only go up from here.
What impressed me on rewatch is how deftly it switches tones. The MCU is amazing at mixing drama with comedy, heart with brain, action with genuine stakes. It's a shame you missed the first five minutes or so because it's some of the best stuff in the film. Endgame opens with Hawkeye losing his family to the snap, a heartbreaking scene. Then immediately transitions to Tony and Nebula stuck in space playing paper football to pass the time. Hilarious stuff after we just watched one of our heroes lose his entire family. And then it goes dark again as Tony narrates what he thinks is his inevitable death, lost in space. Endgame makes all these insane circumstances feel real. You can't do superhero films any better than what they do with these moments.
The final battle was probably the definition of fan service, but it's kind of the point of that scene, isn't it? They earned it and so did the audience. And boy did it payoff. It truly is an unforgettable end to what's been an incredible cinematic journey so far. Yes there will be more Marvel films, but this had a sense of finality to it. A passing of the torch as it were to the next generation of heroes and a proper sendoff to some of the characters who built the foundation of the MCU.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on May 14, 2019 14:46:56 GMT
Creating a proper mix of drama, comedy, and action is really the true art of these movies. It's relatively easy to make a movie that has just one tone (grim dark for example). But to make people laugh in the middle of a dramatic scene without losing the impact is much harder.
This has been the hallmark of "action" movies since the time of "The Adventures of Robin Hood" 1938 and "Gunga Din" 1939.
John Ford's Cavalry Trilogy (1948-1950) is another great example of this as well as more modern things like "Raiders of the Lost Ark", "Die Hard", "Lethal Weapon", and "Star Wars".
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2019 17:43:39 GMT
Creating a proper mix of drama, comedy, and action is really the true art of these movies. It's relatively easy to make a movie that has just one tone (grim dark for example). But to make people laugh in the middle of a dramatic scene without losing the impact is much harder. This has been the hallmark of "action" movies since the time of "The Adventures of Robin Hood" 1938 and "Gunga Din" 1939. John Ford's Cavalry Trilogy (1948-1950) is another great example of this as well as more modern things like "Raiders of the Lost Ark", "Die Hard", "Lethal Weapon", and "Star Wars". Loved Gunga Din!
I had no idea until I watched it that Cary Grant was so funny. He carried off wit quite well in other movies, North by Northwest, but I had no idea he was such a physical comedian too until Gunga Din. His younger days, I imagine.
Some of the Rudyard Kipling related movies are really interesting. He must have been quite the character with an intriguing and unique outlook. The ones I know of are The Jungle Book (1942), The Man who would be King, Gunga Din, and...Kim. I guess I've just seen the four, but they're all an interesting slice of movie.
"John Ford's Cavalry Trilogy (1948-1950) is another great example of this as well as more modern things like "Raiders of the Lost Ark", "Die Hard", "Lethal Weapon", and "Star Wars". "
Solid examples!
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2019 17:46:52 GMT
Solid observation about Thanos. It's true, the Thanos that had been built up the entire time was killed almost immediately. Very interesting choice. You can tell by contrast that he's wiser than his 2014 counterpart.
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Post by Nalkarj on May 14, 2019 18:16:16 GMT
Creating a proper mix of drama, comedy, and action is really the true art of these movies. It's relatively easy to make a movie that has just one tone (grim dark for example). But to make people laugh in the middle of a dramatic scene without losing the impact is much harder. This has been the hallmark of "action" movies since the time of "The Adventures of Robin Hood" 1938 and "Gunga Din" 1939. John Ford's Cavalry Trilogy (1948-1950) is another great example of this as well as more modern things like "Raiders of the Lost Ark", "Die Hard", "Lethal Weapon", and "Star Wars". Loved Gunga Din!
I had no idea until I watched it that Cary Grant was so funny. He carried off wit quite well in other movies, North by Northwest, but I had no idea he was such a physical comedian too until Gunga Din. His younger days, I imagine.
Some of the Rudyard Kipling related movies are really interesting. He must have been quite the character with an intriguing and unique outlook. The ones I know of are The Jungle Book (1942), The Man who would be King, Gunga Din, and...Kim. I guess I've just seen the four, but they're all an interesting slice of movie.
"John Ford's Cavalry Trilogy (1948-1950) is another great example of this as well as more modern things like "Raiders of the Lost Ark", "Die Hard", "Lethal Weapon", and "Star Wars". "
Solid examples!
Amusingly, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom is a virtual remake of Gunga Din—probably one of the reasons I like it so much. As for Cary, have you seen Bringing up Baby? A good deal of the humor is wit, but Grant gets a lot of the physical comedy you liked—in fact, there are several where he is both verbally and physically hilarious. One of my very favorite actors.
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Post by Nalkarj on May 14, 2019 18:23:49 GMT
Solid observation about Thanos. It's true, the Thanos that had been built up the entire time was killed almost immediately. Very interesting choice. You can tell by contrast that he's wiser than his 2014 counterpart. It is a very interesting choice—but a logical one, when I thought about it afterwards: what’s the guy going to do after winning? The 2014 Thanos is (for me) a less satisfying villain than his 2018 ( Infinity War) counterpart, let alone his 2019 counterpart, one of the few disappointments I had about this movie. What made Thanos interesting was his lack of brutishness, his thoughtfulness, his desire only to use force when absolutely necessary. His philosophizing might have been of the college dorm-room kind, but, despite being a big purple CGI monster, he was closer to Hannibal Lecter than to a hulking monstrosity like Doomsday in Batman v Superman. With that said, you make a good point that 2014 Thanos would logically be less wise than 2018-19 Thanos. Still, from a writing perspective, it disappointed me that a complex character, or at least an attempt at a complex character, became a walking cliché.
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Post by politicidal on May 14, 2019 19:31:41 GMT
Creating a proper mix of drama, comedy, and action is really the true art of these movies. It's relatively easy to make a movie that has just one tone (grim dark for example). But to make people laugh in the middle of a dramatic scene without losing the impact is much harder. This has been the hallmark of "action" movies since the time of "The Adventures of Robin Hood" 1938 and "Gunga Din" 1939. John Ford's Cavalry Trilogy (1948-1950) is another great example of this as well as more modern things like "Raiders of the Lost Ark", "Die Hard", "Lethal Weapon", and "Star Wars". Right? It's like that got lost somehow in the mid-2000s. But it seems to be coming back now.
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Post by Archelaus on May 14, 2019 19:32:34 GMT
I thoroughly enjoyed your detailed critique of the film. Related to “bored,” there were parts during which I got really confused. That may be because I haven’t seen all of the series, but I thought the movie did a good job explaining stuff that I’d missed (related to Antman and Sherlock Holmes, mostly—Chris Pratt and his annoying gang of aliens don’t play much of a part here). Mostly it was just the cutting between the scenes on the planet, in New York, and in Asgard. The planet stuff went on forever, and I found it boring. I also got confused when it seemed like it was treading over the same ground the last movie had. Also: time travel. The writers didn’t seem to get it either, so I just went along with it. But didn’t the snap require all of the gems? So why couldn’t they have gone back and just taken out one of the gems? Yes, I’m sure there’s a reason. I'm having trouble trying to follow your second question. The snap required all of the Infinity Stones, in which the Avengers had. Also, where’d his Narnia-esque villain army come from at the end? One of the guys is his second-in-command, yes (“I herald the coming of the great Thanos”), but I’m talking about the monsters at the end. Of course they had to be there to fight our heroes, but who/what are they? Thanos's army comes from the Chitauri who are basically his client enforcers when they invade planets and kill off half of the population. The monsters during the final battle you may be referring to are the Leviathan. Thanos. I liked that early death surprise, as mentioned, but they did the big purple guy a disservice: he was a complex, interesting character in the first one, and here he’s a plot device. He even has clichéd villain dialogue to go along with it. (Also: I laughed because what he did in the movie wasn’t too far removed from what he did in fake “spoilers” I wrote as a joke here.) That's a fine point to make, but I was content with it. It shows how much Thanos has grown since Infinity War. The search for the Infinity Stones took Thanos on a character journey in which he had to make a painful sacrifice. The alternate 2014 Thanos hasn't gone on that journey yet so he's very much an intergalactic despot without the nuance.
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Post by Nalkarj on May 14, 2019 19:53:44 GMT
I thoroughly enjoyed your detailed critique of the film. Thank you.Right, but why couldn’t they just have gone back to 2018, or right before 2018, and just remove one Infinity Stone? Then Thanos couldn’t have done the “snap” in 2018 because, as you said, it required all of them. Which would create an alternate timeline in which no one could have disappeared. It’s not a major deal, because then the rest of the plot wouldn’t have worked, of course, but it just came to mind: there are simpler ways to do this once you bring in time-travel.The Chiatauri were the bad guys (other than Loki) in The Avengers, right? OK, I just didn’t know they were still around. Were they in Infinity War? If so, I missed them/don’t remember them. Ditto with the Leviathans.In the film’s internal logic, yes, it makes sense, and it’s an entirely fair point. From a writing perspective, though, it just disappointed me that a good character in Infinity War has become a walking cliché. That said, it’s not a major flaw; I just missed IW’s Thanos (and Farmer Thanos in the beginning of this one).
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Post by Nalkarj on May 14, 2019 20:14:16 GMT
I think I’ve asked this before, but the show about Cap’s girlfriend is good, right? Because I’d love to see that.
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Post by sdrew13163 on May 14, 2019 20:19:56 GMT
Great review. Even though I wasn’t a fan of the movie as a whole, I agree about the ending. Cap had a good end.
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Post by kleinreturns on May 14, 2019 20:22:32 GMT
Solid observation about Thanos. It's true, the Thanos that had been built up the entire time was killed almost immediately. Very interesting choice. You can tell by contrast that he's wiser than his 2014 counterpart. I thought it was a mistake to have killed Thanos like they did so quickly in the beginning. I would have liked to seen a much longer fight scene or at least a real struggle between Thanos and the Avengers (especially Thor) in the beginning than the rather easy and rather quick death he got in the beginning of Endgame. How is it Thor got his ass beat by Kurse and Hela so badly but easily kills Thanos who is supposed to be stronger and smarter than these two???
PS. I also don't like how they used the Infinity Stones in this movie either. It wasn't consistent at all. Like how come Thanos didn't heal himself with the stones before destroying them???
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Post by taylorfirst1 on May 14, 2019 20:31:54 GMT
I think I’ve asked this before, but the show about Cap’s girlfriend is good, right? Because I’d love to see that. I like it.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on May 14, 2019 20:33:14 GMT
Solid observation about Thanos. It's true, the Thanos that had been built up the entire time was killed almost immediately. Very interesting choice. You can tell by contrast that he's wiser than his 2014 counterpart. I thought it was a mistake to have killed Thanos like they did so quickly in the beginning. I would have liked to seen a much longer fight scene or at least a real struggle between Thanos and the Avengers (especially Thor) in the beginning than the rather easy and rather quick death he got in the beginning of Endgame. How is it Thor got his ass beat by Kurse and Hela so badly but easily kills Thanos who is supposed to be stronger and smarter than these two???
PS. I also don't like how they used the Infinity Stones in this movie either. It wasn't consistent at all. Like how come Thanos didn't heal himself with the stones before destroying them???
He got injured when he destroyed the stones.
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Post by kleinreturns on May 14, 2019 20:37:11 GMT
I thought it was a mistake to have killed Thanos like they did so quickly in the beginning. I would have liked to seen a much longer fight scene or at least a real struggle between Thanos and the Avengers (especially Thor) in the beginning than the rather easy and rather quick death he got in the beginning of Endgame. How is it Thor got his ass beat by Kurse and Hela so badly but easily kills Thanos who is supposed to be stronger and smarter than these two???
PS. I also don't like how they used the Infinity Stones in this movie either. It wasn't consistent at all. Like how come Thanos didn't heal himself with the stones before destroying them???
He got injured when he destroyed the stones. I understand that, but couldn't he have healed himself with the stones before he destroyed them???
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