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Post by goz on May 22, 2019 4:45:39 GMT
Just think about this for a moment. Three are not one. God is not a person, let alone three. ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY AND UTTERLY irrelevant. Nope. Nope nope. Explain how one of anything can be three. How can three people make up God, and what time has to do with this as God exists outside of human time...right?
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Post by clusium on May 22, 2019 4:51:10 GMT
Nope nope. Explain how one of anything can be three. How can three people make up God, and what time has to do with this as God exists outside of human time...right? I already did explain, by citing the example of time. Here's another example: H20. It can be water (liquid); Gas (vapour); or solid (ice).
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Post by goz on May 22, 2019 5:53:38 GMT
Nope nope. Explain how one of anything can be three. How can three people make up God, and what time has to do with this as God exists outside of human time...right? I already did explain, by citing the example of time. Here's another example: H20. It can be water (liquid); Gas (vapour); or solid (ice). They are the same chemical composition butt are not the same. How can a son be his father? What actually IS the Holy Ghost, What differentiates it from the father and son who already you are alleging to be the same. it doesn't make any sense.
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Post by Vegas on May 22, 2019 8:37:26 GMT
Nope nope. Explain how one of anything can be three. How can three people make up God, and what time has to do with this as God exists outside of human time...right? I already did explain, by citing the example of time. Here's another example: H20. It can be water (liquid); Gas (vapour); or solid (ice). Yeah... But.. It's not all three at the same time. Having the same elemental composition doesn't make it the same thing. My glass of water isn't the ice in your fridge. A hamburger might be the same chemically as a cow... but, it will never say "moo".
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Post by goz on May 22, 2019 9:19:10 GMT
I already did explain, by citing the example of time. Here's another example: H20. It can be water (liquid); Gas (vapour); or solid (ice).Yeah... But.. It's not all three at the same time. Having the same elemental composition doesn't make it the same thing. My glass of water isn't the ice in your fridge. A hamburger might be the same chemically as a cow... but, it will never say "moo". So how can the father be the son or the son the father and no one seems to know what the holy spirit or holy ghost is!
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Post by Vegas on May 22, 2019 12:37:34 GMT
Yeah... But.. It's not all three at the same time. Having the same elemental composition doesn't make it the same thing. My glass of water isn't the ice in your fridge. A hamburger might be the same chemically as a cow... but, it will never say "moo". So how can the father be the son or the son the father Simple. He's not. The Trinity is a silly belief that arose from the advent of Neoplatonism. It wasn't added to the mix until much later. When to Council of Nicaea convened in the early 300s, when it was decided that Jesus was made of the same stuff that God is made of...there wasn't even the mention of The Holy Spirit.
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Post by amyghost on May 22, 2019 12:43:45 GMT
Meaning that many present-day Xtian sects are not agreed on the nature of the 'Holy Spirit'. And it's a certainty that, down the centuries, Xtians have enjoyed few things more than persecuting one another on charges of heresy and 'incorrect' beliefs. Not certain how you've come by the certitude that the majority of Xtians believe in the Trinity as defined by the Catholic Church (if that is indeed what you meant); but even if that is so, it's pretty definite that there's still major disagreement as to what precisely the nature of that Trinity is, or how it's composed. How did I come to the certitude that the majority of Christians believe in the Trinity, you ask? Because not only do the Catholics believe in the Trinity, but, so do the Orthodox (both Eastern & Oriental), and mainline Protestants all do. Most 'mainline Protestants' do not believe in the Trinity in at all the same manner as the RC's and Orthodox sects do: gotherefor.com/offer.php?intid=29625&changestore=trueand you'd do well to define exactly what you mean by mainline Protestant, anyway. Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons both comprise sizeable followings, both of whom reject the Trinity, and both of whom these days are considered 'mainline' (as opposed to esoteric minority cult) by most of society even if their teachings and practices aren't agreed with. Christian Science could also somewhat be seen as falling into that category. That's a fair number of Protestants, taken together, who explicitly reject Trinitarianism. Orthodox and RC's also have some disagreements about the nature of the Trinity and the holy spirit: christianityinview.com/comparison.htmlso, all-in-all, it's safe to say that my contention--that the major Xtian religious sects continue in a high level of disagreement as to an essential component of theology that one might think should be agreed upon in all respects (the exact nature of Jesus)--is pretty much correct. And for my part, it's all gobbleydegook anyway, so it's hardly surprising that they can reach any real consensus about it.
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Post by amyghost on May 22, 2019 12:48:28 GMT
Actually, we Jews tend to look on the various Xtian sects as the no-brainers, seeing as they can't agree among themselves on a seemingly basic theological point as to whether Jesus is god incarnated in human form, god's literal son via mystical impregnation of a nubile teenager, or some sort of weird mash-up of the two with a ghost thrown in for good measure. Catholicism of course attempts to reconcile all this through the Trinity, which only serves to muddy the waters even further for those outside of that faith. I was not insulting Jews. I was merely saying that obviously Jews do not believe Christ was god incarnate. My apologies, I didn't intend to suggest I perceived your post as an insult. No, we don't, and with pretty good reason, all things considered.
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Post by amyghost on May 22, 2019 12:54:33 GMT
Nope nope. Explain how one of anything can be three. How can three people make up God, and what time has to do with this as God exists outside of human time...right? I already did explain, by citing the example of time. Here's another example: H20. It can be water (liquid); Gas (vapour); or solid (ice). So in other words, Father/Son/Holy Ghost is an earthly physical compound, composed of distinct chemical properties? Funny, I don't recall the Trinity appearing anywhere on the periodic table of elements.
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Post by clusium on May 22, 2019 14:32:34 GMT
I already did explain, by citing the example of time. Here's another example: H20. It can be water (liquid); Gas (vapour); or solid (ice). They are the same chemical composition butt are not the same. How can a son be his father? What actually IS the Holy Ghost, What differentiates it from the father and son who already you are alleging to be the same. it doesn't make any sense. You answered your own question, right in your very first sentence (regarding H2O). The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the Same Deity, but, Different Persons in that Deity. The Holy Ghost Is the Spirit Of God, Who Brings about Sanctification in His Creation,
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Post by clusium on May 22, 2019 14:35:59 GMT
I already did explain, by citing the example of time. Here's another example: H20. It can be water (liquid); Gas (vapour); or solid (ice).Yeah... But.. It's not all three at the same time. Having the same elemental composition doesn't make it the same thing. My glass of water isn't the ice in your fridge. A hamburger might be the same chemically as a cow... but, it will never say "moo". They can be though. Get a whole bucket of ice. Then get a huge bucket of boiling water (the steam will be coming out of it). Then pour the ice into said water (granted the ice will gradually melt or the boiling water will slowly get cooler, but, still, until those happen, you have H2O in all its chemical compounds).
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Post by clusium on May 22, 2019 14:40:29 GMT
How did I come to the certitude that the majority of Christians believe in the Trinity, you ask? Because not only do the Catholics believe in the Trinity, but, so do the Orthodox (both Eastern & Oriental), and mainline Protestants all do. Most 'mainline Protestants' do not believe in the Trinity in at all the same manner as the RC's and Orthodox sects do: gotherefor.com/offer.php?intid=29625&changestore=trueand you'd do well to define exactly what you mean by mainline Protestant, anyway. Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons both comprise sizeable followings, both of whom reject the Trinity, and both of whom these days are considered 'mainline' (as opposed to esoteric minority cult) by most of society even if their teachings and practices aren't agreed with. Christian Science could also somewhat be seen as falling into that category. That's a fair number of Protestants, taken together, who explicitly reject Trinitarianism. Orthodox and RC's also have some disagreements about the nature of the Trinity and the holy spirit: christianityinview.com/comparison.htmlso, all-in-all, it's safe to say that my contention--that the major Xtian religious sects continue in a high level of disagreement as to an essential component of theology that one might think should be agreed upon in all respects (the exact nature of Jesus)--is pretty much correct. And for my part, it's all gobbleydegook anyway, so it's hardly surprising that they can reach any real consensus about it. Yes they do. They believe that God Is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Mainline Protestants are: Anglicans (Episcopalians), Lutherans, Presbyterians, & Methodists.
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Post by clusium on May 22, 2019 14:41:32 GMT
I already did explain, by citing the example of time. Here's another example: H20. It can be water (liquid); Gas (vapour); or solid (ice). So in other words, Father/Son/Holy Ghost is an earthly physical compound, composed of distinct chemical properties? Funny, I don't recall the Trinity appearing anywhere on the periodic table of elements. No. I am only using the example of H2O to show how there can be Only One God in 3 Divine Persons.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2019 14:45:22 GMT
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Post by amyghost on May 22, 2019 20:47:57 GMT
Most 'mainline Protestants' do not believe in the Trinity in at all the same manner as the RC's and Orthodox sects do: gotherefor.com/offer.php?intid=29625&changestore=trueand you'd do well to define exactly what you mean by mainline Protestant, anyway. Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons both comprise sizeable followings, both of whom reject the Trinity, and both of whom these days are considered 'mainline' (as opposed to esoteric minority cult) by most of society even if their teachings and practices aren't agreed with. Christian Science could also somewhat be seen as falling into that category. That's a fair number of Protestants, taken together, who explicitly reject Trinitarianism. Orthodox and RC's also have some disagreements about the nature of the Trinity and the holy spirit: christianityinview.com/comparison.htmlso, all-in-all, it's safe to say that my contention--that the major Xtian religious sects continue in a high level of disagreement as to an essential component of theology that one might think should be agreed upon in all respects (the exact nature of Jesus)--is pretty much correct. And for my part, it's all gobbleydegook anyway, so it's hardly surprising that they can reach any real consensus about it. Yes they do. They believe that God Is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Mainline Protestants are: Anglicans (Episcopalians), Lutherans, Presbyterians, & Methodists. You're eliding my main point, which is that there is considerable difference on theological points between those sects who do accept the Trinity. If the truth of Jesus' nature is as obvious as many diehard Xtians like to contend, then there should be no reason for this. Of course, there should also be no need for four separate accounts of Jesus' life, either--another point the average Xtian seems to have no especially satisfactory answer for.
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Post by amyghost on May 22, 2019 20:50:07 GMT
They are the same chemical composition butt are not the same. How can a son be his father? What actually IS the Holy Ghost, What differentiates it from the father and son who already you are alleging to be the same. it doesn't make any sense. You answered your own question, right in your very first sentence (regarding H2O). The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the Same Deity, but, Different Persons in that Deity. The Holy Ghost Is the Spirit Of God, Who Brings about Sanctification in His Creation, Which leaves intact Goz's original question, to wit: how can three beings exist in one deity? Your answer to this thus far has been no answer at all.
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Post by amyghost on May 22, 2019 20:53:29 GMT
So in other words, Father/Son/Holy Ghost is an earthly physical compound, composed of distinct chemical properties? Funny, I don't recall the Trinity appearing anywhere on the periodic table of elements. No. I am only using the example of H2O to show how there can be Only One God in 3 Divine Persons. It should be obvious to you why that's a poor analogy.
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Post by goz on May 22, 2019 21:32:57 GMT
They are the same chemical composition butt are not the same. How can a son be his father? What actually IS the Holy Ghost, What differentiates it from the father and son who already you are alleging to be the same. it doesn't make any sense. You answered your own question, right in your very first sentence (regarding H2O). The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the Same Deity, but, Different Persons in that Deity. The Holy Ghost Is the Spirit Of God, Who Brings about Sanctification in His Creation, Why does an allegedly omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent deity need this? For that matter why did 'God' even need to have a 'son' in Jesus, and why and how can a son e be the father. I keep asking and you keep prevaricating about this. He allegedly MUST have been his sin as Mary was his mother. I repeat. A son cannot be his father and a father cannot be his son. No matter if you call them 'persons' (which implies a level of humanity which is in appropriate,) 'beings' element of whatever what is the need when God is allegedly omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent deity. I t doesn't make any sense at all.
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Post by clusium on May 22, 2019 22:35:40 GMT
You answered your own question, right in your very first sentence (regarding H2O). The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the Same Deity, but, Different Persons in that Deity. The Holy Ghost Is the Spirit Of God, Who Brings about Sanctification in His Creation, Why does an allegedly omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent deity need this? For that matter why did 'God' even need to have a 'son' in Jesus, and why and how can a son e be the father. I keep asking and you keep prevaricating about this. He allegedly MUST have been his sin as Mary was his mother. I repeat. A son cannot be his father and a father cannot be his son. No matter if you call them 'persons' (which implies a level of humanity which is in appropriate,) 'beings' element of whatever what is the need when God is allegedly omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent deity. I t doesn't make any sense at all. God Is Love. Love Creates, hence the Son Came from the Father. As you already noted God Is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent. Why? Because He Is God. That is also why He Is more than 1 Person in the Godhead. God Is a Wholly Different Entity than all of us, which is why He Can Be 3 Persons in His Godhead.
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Post by clusium on May 22, 2019 22:38:30 GMT
Yes they do. They believe that God Is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Mainline Protestants are: Anglicans (Episcopalians), Lutherans, Presbyterians, & Methodists. You're eliding my main point, which is that there is considerable difference on theological points between those sects who do accept the Trinity. If the truth of Jesus' nature is as obvious as many diehard Xtians like to contend, then there should be no reason for this. Of course, there should also be no need for four separate accounts of Jesus' life, either--another point the average Xtian seems to have no especially satisfactory answer for. You asked who mainline Protestants were, & I answered the question.
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