|
Post by Raimo47 on Mar 20, 2017 22:32:39 GMT
I thought Angel had the best ending of any series ever. It was full of hope and determination. I agree. Not Fade Away is my favorite last episode as well.
|
|
|
Post by femalefan on Mar 20, 2017 22:46:07 GMT
Do the comics count as canon?
|
|
Blue
Junior Member
@bluejay
Posts: 1,317
Likes: 372
|
Post by Blue on Mar 21, 2017 8:12:44 GMT
Do the comics count as canon? After the Fall #1-17 does. Everything else is left intentionally ambiguous. As far as the Buffy comics are concerned (which are confirmed canon) only Angel: After the Fall has been referenced.
|
|
|
Post by Ad○rably Obn○xi○us🐢 on Mar 28, 2017 20:32:51 GMT
I felt the show was great on it's own terms. Season 4 with Jasmine needed some work as it mostly talking, but it still had a few I enjoyed. People give Season 4 a lot of flack, but I found it enjoyable for the most part. Did not like Conner, but he was tolerable. I liked the whole Jasmine storyline. I would love to see what Whedon had down instead of what he had to change when Carpenter came up unexpectedly pregnant. I was not in love with Jasmine herself, but the story arc leading up to her arrival is my favorite in the entire 'verse hands down. Darla et al. That crazy bitch died what-4 times total on both shows?? Julie Benz is perfect. Her singing Ill Wind is a personal favorite of mine.
|
|
|
Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 29, 2017 16:41:47 GMT
From what I've read, Cordy would've been possessed the entire time. No birth. The final showdown would've been a battle between Angel and Cordy.
This would've worked twofold: First, it would've been an ironic pay off to Cordy asking Angel to train her in case she ever has to fight him. The assumption of course being that she's good, and he's Angelus.
Second, and similarly, it would've been an inverse of Angel once again fighting the woman he loves (Buffy/Cordy) . Only this time, he's the hero, and she's the villain.
|
|
|
Post by Ad○rably Obn○xi○us🐢 on Mar 30, 2017 0:47:41 GMT
From what I've read, Cordy would've been possessed the entire time. No birth. The final showdown would've been a battle between Angel and Cordy. This would've worked twofold: First, it would've been an ironic pay off to Cordy asking Angel to train her in case she ever has to fight him. The assumption of course being that she's good, and he's Angelus. Second, and similarly, it would've been an inverse of Angel once again fighting the woman he loves (Buffy/Cordy) . Only this time, he's the hero, and she's the villain. That poses quite a dilemma for me. While it sounds much better than what we ended up with, if it negated any of Darla's arc I just can't see how I'd like it quite as much. All in all, Whedon did what he could with what he was given and I'm okay with it.
|
|
|
Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 30, 2017 13:05:37 GMT
I really don't see how it could've negated Darla's arc. Everything pretty much would've been the same. The only thing that would've changed is season 4. By then, Darla's arc is complete.
And I'm with you. I enjoyed Jasmine's arc. It was a very interesting direction to go. A big bad who wanted to bring peace, not destruction.
|
|
|
Post by Ad○rably Obn○xi○us🐢 on Mar 30, 2017 16:44:13 GMT
I really don't see how it could've negated Darla's arc. Everything pretty much would've been the same. The only thing that would've changed is season 4. By then, Darla's arc is complete. And I'm with you. I enjoyed Jasmine's arc. It was a very interesting direction to go. A big bad who wanted to bring peace, not destruction. What do you think he had planned instead? Like Darla gives birth to Connor and I did like the whole hell dimension thing he need up being raised in with Holt but maybe Connor was supposed to be the villain for the season by himself? With a sudden reconciliation and understanding at the end of the season?
|
|
|
Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 30, 2017 16:58:52 GMT
Hard to say what would've been planned for Connor. He wouldn't have been the sole villain. Cordy was going to be the main villain. Connor could've been her muscle. Her anti-champion, so to speak.
Don't know about the finale. I'm guessing probably something similar with what happened to Jasmine. Connor realizes he's wrong and stops or kills Cordy.
|
|
NileQT87
Sophomore
Billowy Coat, King of Pain
@nileqt87
Posts: 532
Likes: 60
|
Post by NileQT87 on Mar 31, 2017 1:52:08 GMT
The plan was for Angel to have to actually kill the real Cordy to kill the hijacking PtB.
I'm actually glad for the change. I like the fact that it's Connor who turns on Jasmine and puts his fist through her head, as he once again is a victim of everyone in his life lying to him. It's the start of his relationship with Angel actually healing when he realizes how much he's been played his whole life. At first he's despondent (suicidal/homicidal), but with basic memories on how to really function in society, he already had the basis from before on how he realizes that Angel was the only one who really did love him all along with no ulterior motives after all the liars turn out to have never truly loved him at all. Jasmine's betrayal through Cordy actually brought him closer to Angel in the end.
Cordy also benefits from Jasmine being defeated in another body, because if she hadn't been, the real Cordy would never had a chance to come back in You're Welcome and the evil version would be the last we'd ever see of her.
Cordy BENEFITS from the changed storyline because of Charisma's pregnancy! I don't think CC's fans ever seem to understand that. They act like the character never would have been the Big Bad or had the same general arc had she not been pregnant. Not remotely so! It would have been worse! CC basically inherited what was once Doyle's arc had Glenn Quinn not been a drug addict who died during season 4's production and was fired after 9 episodes because of he wasn't showing up knowing lines. One of the original ideas was for Doyle to be the hijacked season 4 villain. This was in the planning back that far and always where the PtB visions storyline was going. It's also the only reason Cangel was being setup with the ultimate goal of making Angel having to kill the real Cordy to stop the rogue PtB as the plan. Cordy was never not going to die after she ended up with the visions storyline. And I've read somewhere that Joss had this visions idea way back so far that he had actually originally come up with it for a possible Buffy storyline, but decided to give it to Doyle/Cordy instead. Cordy was always meant as a mirror to Buffy and this was just one more way.
The PtB arc with a rogue PtB becoming a Big Bad via a hijacking was introduced as far back as Whistler in Becoming (who was written in the first draft of City of... in the Doyle role, but Max Perlich was unavailable) and Amends also sets it up. This arc was one of the longest planned arcs of the whole franchise. This arc idea was not some sudden invention.
BtVS spent quite a bit of time setting up this arc for Angel, which would result in his loss of faith in the very PtBs he had been serving (there are lines to this very effect about "the Powers that screw you"). Much like Buffy's love seemed like a miracle to him, only to be violently ripped away as another one of his life's cosmic jokes, Angel gets handed a miracle he feels is finally a reward/reprieve and something he wants desperately in Connor, only for him to be taken away from him. We have lines as far back as Bad Eggs, The Prom and War Zone about how much Angel desperately wants a family and children--one of the things he's denied that he seems to want most in the world. Angel's entire life story is him constantly being manipulated by forces beyond his control (right back to being sired, ensouled, being brought in to help Buffy and having as little knowledge of the loophole as anyone else but the gypsies--he's constantly a victim of events beyond his control or knowledge). This arc was all about him fighting back with the realization that it might mean that there will never be a light at the end of the tunnel with no chance of cosmic forgiveness if these very forces who were pretending to help him were really evil all along.
Though we have three instances of the PtBs working against Jasmine or not being Jasmine-related at all (Darla's ghost trying to stop Jasmine's birth, Cordy being brought back for one last visit and the vision passing and the Circle of the Black Thorn vision). Angel thus learns he's fighting because it's the right thing to do, not because he'll ever get any reward out of it. But these three instances give him some hope that the light at the end of the tunnel might still remain, even if he ultimately does give up the Shanshu in yet another show of him fighting because it's the right thing to do.
Gingerbread has a conversation between Buffy and Angel that seeds Angel's own Epiphany speech (not to mention Sartre's La Nausée he's reading in Lovers' Walk). Buffy's words to Ford at the end of Lie to Me about not having any good choices, but doing the right thing still being the best choice are actually in the same philosophical vein. Amends also has this idea of doing the right thing, even if there's no light at the end of the tunnel, but at the same time, hands Angel his first little bit of light when he's given a miracle right after the miracle of him being brought back from hell turns out to be the First Evil wanting him to kill Buffy. He loses one miracle, only to be handed another, which is exactly what happens during the Jasmine arc bringing him closer to his son in the end and other PtBs finally stepping up to the plate. The Mayor also echoed the PtB storyline coming when he stated that Angel wasn't brought back from hell to ruin Buffy's life with the consequences of him being immortal and her not. Angel has his next major miracle when he's allowed to save Kate from her suicide attempt when he's allowed to bypass the rule where he can't enter (the same rule that prevented him from saving Kate's father) following his lowest point of nearly giving up again (essentially an attempted suicide once again) by sleeping with Darla, which produces the Epiphany speech.
This is also why he was so determined to save Darla, because if she could be saved it meant there was hope for him after all. You're Welcome, like Amends, was a renewal of hope.
|
|
ag25
Sophomore
@ag25
Posts: 194
Likes: 44
|
Post by ag25 on Apr 6, 2017 23:46:48 GMT
I do like what Caleb said about the inverse/parallel of Angel having to fight the woman he loves in evil Cordy like Buffy had to fight Angelus; that would have been very interesting to see, but I would not have been in favor of killing off Cordelia's character. I would much rather what happened in S4 happen and then had Cordy stay on after You're Welcome to see how she deals with the fallout of Jasmine's possession and the gang working for W&H, and how that conflicts with her visions from the PTB.
While I agree with much of what you say Nile, (especially about Angel and how Charisma's pregnancy was actually a good thing, since I am ultimately not a fan of killing Cordy off), I do not like/agree with the idea that all of these story arcs were put in place since the end of Buffy S2 and early S3. I am not saying you are wrong and parts/seeds may have been put in place, but I don't think the entire Jasmine story arc was planned as early as Buffy S3. If you are right and everything was planned; meaning what Jasmine and Skip said was true and that everyone is just a piece being moved on a chess board being used/manipulated by other entities, then that really cheapens a lot of what happens and things characters do in both shows in my opinion.
So, how I choose to look at it and reconcile this idea and the concept of free will is that the PTB/the Senior Partners/The First all look for opportunities to do their good/evil and the characters do with the results as they will. For example, in The Trial, Angel and Darla were owed a life since Angel won (and since Darla was already living her second chance), so when Angel and Darla sleep together later on in Reprise the PTB's see an opportunity to give that life owed to Angel and Darla and therefore they conceive Conner. Later, after Cordy has become part demon (whether or not that was a complete manipulation from Jasmine and Skip is another argument) Jasmine sees an opportunity to use her (and later Conner) to manifest herself on earth and have her goals of world peace/power(?)/being worshiped realized, and therefore gets Skip to trick Cordy into "becoming a higher power". Even if all of this is wrong, this is how I choose to look at it so that I enjoy both shows better, lol.
Getting back to the topic, I liked S4 up until Jasmine manifested at the end of the season. I agree with Nile in that I, too, am glad for the change because, while it would have been interesting, it would have been upsetting to me to see Cordy die and have the last time we see her be evil. We then have the wonderful episode of You're Welcome as a beautiful send off for her.
|
|
|
Post by louise on May 10, 2017 20:06:47 GMT
I enjoyed it but much prefer the early episodes. I was vety shocked when doyle got killed off, I. Liked him, never cared much for wesley. and I liked Cordelia as she was at first, they changed her and that wasn't good.
|
|
doivid
New Member
@doivid
Posts: 33
Likes: 5
|
Post by doivid on May 25, 2017 11:11:56 GMT
To be honest, the show didn't really work without Cordelia. Don't get me wrong, Season 5 was a well crafted soft reboot, but it's still a reboot. And even then when Cordelia returns for one episode she breathes a kind of life into the show that is almost jarring in just how much you realize it was lacking. The chemistry her character brings wasn't something they could just rebuild with a new character.
I get that the show was meant to be darker and strip away everything to make it harder for Angel etc. etc. but you also need to have a certain chemistry that animates the story.
It all went wrong in season 3 tbh. I don't hate the episodes like a lot of people do, I actually kind of love that season, but it's just where a lot of things got teased & promised and then fell really flat. I think they started to get a bit too lofty and ungrounded by that point.
At the end of the day the show's core was Angel, Cordy and Wesley. I say keep most of the changes to Cordy and Wesley, but remove some of the heavy handed stuff, like the Cordy ascending to a higher plane thing, or the Wesley communicating to absolutely no one about the so-called prophecy. Fred and Gunn were decent additions, and at some point you do have to kill off someone important, but unfortunately given the setup for the show, it just didn't work to get rid of Cordy.
The Wesley betrayal for the greater good thing plot could still happen, but with something different. And literally the only worthwhile thing to come out of the Connor debacle was like 2-3 episodes where Julie Benz stole the show with some really good acting. So find some other way for her to do that.
|
|
ag25
Sophomore
@ag25
Posts: 194
Likes: 44
|
Post by ag25 on May 31, 2017 23:51:44 GMT
@ doivid
While I agree with some points you made, I disagree with others.
I do not see season 5 as a reboot. It definitely changed things up, but for me it was still the same with some changes. I absolutely agree with you in that Cordy was sorely missed in season 5; and in her single episode of the season I agree you do feel a life breathed into the show and you feel how much her presence added. While I adore Gunn, Fred, Lorne, and Spike, you are right that the core group dynamic was Angel, Cordy, and Wes, and that got messed up in season 5. I agree that given the group set up, it did not make much sense the get rid of Cordy. I like that they had Gunn do something different and we got to see more of J's acting skills (which were fantastic) with his lawyer upgrade, but I felt it was not exactly an in character moment. I never really felt that Gunn would buy into W&H so completely and not expect consequences. By the end of the season, though, he does get back to his roots so that was good. Fred was great this season, but with her transformation into Illyria, there was a serious lack of females on the show. Yes, Harmony was there (and Eve occasionally) but we needed a stability that Cordy would have provided had she stayed on after You're Welcome. With Cordy's reemergence, then it would have been a much better transition for Fred to turn into Illyria. Cordy then could have been there for Wesley and they could have developed their friendship more; with him back in the group but dealing with loss. I felt that Wesley just didn't really have much to do in the last half of season 5 except grieve (rightfully so) and after his arc at the end of season 3, I felt this was a little repetitive.
I think season 3 delivered on it's promises (mind you I'm biased; it's my favorite season), but it set up things for season 4 that were not delivered on. I do love a lot of things that happened in season 4, but I feel that the main story should have been about Angel and Conner, and the subplot of getting Cordy back/Wes coming back into the fold. Instead we only get a little of that and then go into the big storylines of the Beast, Angelus, Faith, and evil Cordy/Jasmine. Don't get me wrong, I love everything they did (especially Faith/Angelus) except the evil Cordy/Jasmine arc, but I think they went a little too big and rushed things instead of resolving what happened at the end of season 3 first, and then get into the heavy arcs of the Beast, Angelus, and Faith. If they had spent more time with Angel and Conner's fallout and maybe reconciled them first, then people may have liked Conner more....Hey, an interesting thought would have been if Conner had teamed up with Wesley as the 2 outcasts of the group and have Wes mentor him or something, then them both be integrated back into the group. That would have been pretty interesting to see. It would have been a nice preview/foreshadowing of Wesley mentoring Faith later in the season and could be seen as a kind of redemption for Wesley; helping Conner and Angel reconcile since Wes was kind of responsible for separating them in the first place...just an idea.
But despite some problems, I still love some of the things that went on in each of the later season of Angel. Ok, I'll stop rambling on now, lol.
|
|
|
Post by stefancrosscoe on May 7, 2020 13:23:23 GMT
I got a hold of the complete Angel DVD box-set a while ago, but since I had not seen any of it since back in 2004-05, I was quite interested in trying to get back to the beginning, and while I do remember that norwegian televison would first premiere the show, back in late summer of 2003 (yeah, we were a couple of years behind, no question about that) and I soon began to enjoy it, almost as much as Buffy.
However, earlier this year, I saw through the first half of season one, and I somehow must have missed most of the earliest episodes, specially with Doyle, who for me easily stood out as a big favorite of mine, as I was just, well, Wesley's arrival was too much about "comedy" and silly witty lines, and I know, it was of course meant that way, maybe also to cheer up the mood after the tragic loss of Doyle, but I sure hope things will pick up in the second half.
Some of the episodes were so well written and acted, and as I mentioned earlier, Doyle really stood out as a potentially great all time tv-character, so to see him getting "kicked off" that early, and also knowing what happened to the actor in real life, is quite sad.
|
|
|
Post by Chalice_Of_Evil on May 8, 2020 8:00:31 GMT
I got a hold of the complete Angel DVD box-set a while ago, but since I had not seen any of it since back in 2004-05, I was quite interested in trying to get back to the beginning, and while I do remember that norwegian televison would first premiere the show, back in late summer of 2003 (yeah, we were a couple of years behind, no question about that) and I soon began to enjoy it, almost as much as Buffy. However, earlier this year, I saw through the first half of season one, and I somehow must have missed most of the earliest episodes, specially with Doyle, who for me easily stood out as a big favorite of mine, as I was just, well, Wesley's arrival was too much about "comedy" and silly witty lines, and I know, it was of course meant that way, maybe also to cheer up the mood after the tragic loss of Doyle, but I sure hope things will pick up in the second half. Some of the episodes were so well written and acted, and as I mentioned earlier, Doyle really stood out as a potentially great all time tv-character, so to see him getting "kicked off" that early, and also knowing what happened to the actor in real life, is quite sad. Yeah, Doyle was a favourite of mine too. I very much enjoyed the trio of Angel/Cordelia/Doyle and I missed their dynamic once Doyle was gone. I think it showed just how good Glenn Quinn was in the role of Doyle that he was able to make such an impact with only 9 episodes to establish his character and play out an 'arc' for the character. He had a nice friendship with Angel and I think his crush on Cordelia was one of the better 'romantic' relationships the show had. He also got some of the funniest moments/lines too. As for Wesley...I can't say I was that fond of him in BtVS Season 3 (I didn't hate him, but when I discovered he would be 'replacing' Doyle in the show, I wasn't happy about it). I actually didn't mind his introductory episode ('Parting Gifts'), and the next episode, 'Somnabulist', is one of my favourite episodes of the show, but there were some groan-worthy parts with his character in later episodes. However, his character does change over the course of the series and I think he goes through one of the most significant character developments out of everyone, so things definitely improve with him later on. Honestly, the only episode I disliked of those first 9 episodes featuring Doyle was 'I Fall to Pieces'. Other than that one, I pretty much enjoyed the rest, I think. Once again, just wanted to say good to have you back, stefancrosscoe.
|
|
|
Post by stefancrosscoe on May 8, 2020 8:22:22 GMT
One of the funniest scenes of those first 9 episodes, I think it was (I do not really remember the episodes name) but Doyle's ex-wife or girlfriend is back in town, and are about to get married, and right at the end after Angel and Cordelia saves the day, Doyle, now in his demon "version", is completely unrecognizable to Cordelia, who just brush him off with some hysterical line "Oh god, where do all these ugly things come from?" or something very similar, and then beats him in the head with a plate or something. It was so funny and incredbly well timed, and I cannot think of any other moment where I have laughed out that hard, in such a "random" little scene, for very long. I do remember Wesley taking on a quite different path, later on, but I somehow I must have skipped/missed out of the earlier episodes, back in 2003 when I first began to watch it weekly.
|
|
|
Post by Chalice_Of_Evil on May 8, 2020 8:46:39 GMT
One of the funniest scenes of those first 9 episodes, I think it was (I do not really remember the episodes name) but Doyle's ex-wife or girlfriend is back in town, and are about to get married, and right at the end after Angel and Cordelia saves the day, Doyle, now in his demon "version", is completely unrecognizable to Cordelia, who just brush him off with some hysterical line "Oh god, where do all these ugly things come from?" or something very similar, and then beats him in the head with a plate or something. It was so funny and incredbly well timed, and I cannot think of any other moment where I have laughed out that hard, in such a "random" little scene, for very long. I do remember Wesley taking on a quite different path, later on, but I somehow I must have skipped/missed out of the earlier episodes, back in 2003 when I first began to watch it weekly. Yeah, I remember that part from 'The Bachelor Party' (especially the sounds of him whomping him over the head with the tray repeatedly). There *was* some 'physical comedy' moments with Doyle. I remember the part at the start of episode 6, 'Sense & Sensitivity', where they think Angel's managed to kill a tentacled demon (apparently there'd been at least one previous attempt, but this time he instructed them to cut it into pieces and make sure it stayed dead), and Cordelia's going off on one of her rants about Angel and his lack of showing appreciation for the two of them...meanwhile, a tentacle grabs Doyle and starts choking him while Cordelia is oblivious. It's interesting that the physical comedy with Doyle didn't bother me as much as the (early days) physical comedy with Wesley did. I guess with Wesley it came across as 'trying too hard', whereas with Doyle it just showed how unlucky he was since he had a crush on Cordy and she really was oblivious to him in a lot of ways.
|
|
|
Post by stefancrosscoe on May 8, 2020 8:53:51 GMT
I guess with Wesley it came across as 'trying too hard', whereas with Doyle it just showed how unlucky he was since he had a crush on Cordy and she really was oblivious to him in a lot of ways. Yup, that is exactly how I would like to have describe the early arrival of Wesley. The "new kid" trying too hard to impress. However, when I come to think of it, I guess it was a natural choice by doing more light hearted or comedy based mood within the first few episodes after the loss of Doyle, mainly cause it was such a sad and tragic outcome, and even though he only were around for 9 episodes, it felt like he had been there forever, such was his good chemistry between him and his co-workers.
|
|
|
Post by Chalice_Of_Evil on May 8, 2020 10:28:42 GMT
I guess with Wesley it came across as 'trying too hard', whereas with Doyle it just showed how unlucky he was since he had a crush on Cordy and she really was oblivious to him in a lot of ways. Yup, that is exactly how I would like to have describe the early arrival of Wesley. The "new kid" trying too hard to impress. However, when I come to think of it, I guess it was a natural choice by doing more light hearted or comedy based mood within the first few episodes after the loss of Doyle, mainly cause it was such a sad and tragic outcome, and even though he only were around for 9 episodes, it felt like he had been there forever, such was his good chemistry between him and his co-workers. I think 'Parting Gifts' had some amusing stuff (Cordelia attempting to get rid of Doyle's 'gift' - ie. the visions - by smooching "every damn frog in this kingdom" as Cordy put it), but also had some pretty emotional stuff too to balance that out. The episode began with Angel going to the Oracles to get Doyle back. The way Angel said "He's my friend." was a sad moment, I thought. Then there later on when Cordy was doing her audition, it started off rather 'sad' as she broke down about Doyle during it, but then things 'lightened up' again with her getting her first vision (I loved her dedication and how she kept pressing on with it despite the intense pain). Also the character of Benny the demon, I thought, was an excellent choice for 'bad guy' in the episode, as seemed to begin the episode as 'meek'/scared, but then revealed his true self to Cordy and really got savage with his verbal attacks on her regarding Doyle and how she treated him. The following episode, 'Somnabulist', was one I thought was more on the 'serious' side of things too. There were some humourous moments, but on the whole I found it pretty 'dark' (it's also notable for guest-starring Jeremy Renner as Penn, Angelus' vampire protégé, before he ever got 'famous', I think). So, all in all, I thought there was a good balance of 'comedic' moments and 'serious' moments in the first couple of episodes following Doyle's departure from the show. I think Wesley's 'type' of humour that he displayed in his early episodes in the show seemed to 'clash' a bit with what we'd had before. It felt a bit *too* 'slapstick' at times. However, all that changed, I feel, in the episode 'Five by Five' - I thought that was the first time we saw Wesley wasn't just a 'joke' type of character. And you're right, it *did* feel like Doyle 'had been there forever' thanks to the chemistry between the three actors and their characters. I never forgot the character of Doyle and always missed him (which is why I appreciated it so much when the show mentioned him in later seasons).
|
|