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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 8, 2019 15:35:01 GMT
And how do you know that religious leaders aren't knowingly lying? A question you didn't answer months ago either. We know for a fact that a surprising number of clergy in many Christian denominations are non-believers who are just going through the motions for whatever reasons (can't think of any other job to do, think they are doing a positive service anyway, are attached to the community, etc.).
ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/Preachers_who_are_not_believers.pdf It is also a fact that religious mendacity, of various forms, has been manifest down through history.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jun 8, 2019 15:45:44 GMT
And how do you know that religious leaders aren't knowingly lying? A question you didn't answer months ago either. We know for a fact that a surprising number of clergy in many Christian denominations are non-believers who are just going through the motions for whatever reasons (can't think of any other job to do, think they are doing a positive service anyway, are attached to the community, etc.).
ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/Preachers_who_are_not_believers.pdf Interesting article; I didn't finish it but will come back to it. This kind of article, the intellectual discussion of the issues, is interesting, and not what usually goes on in this board. Thanks for posting it.
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Post by MCDemuth on Jun 8, 2019 16:03:55 GMT
You probably said that as a joke Yes. This originated with Dana Carvey's character, "The Church Lady", on SNL... Rearrange the letters of SANTA... and you get SATAN.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2019 17:20:10 GMT
You probably said that as a joke Yes. This originated with Dana Carvey's character, "The Church Lady", on SNL... Rearrange the letters of SANTA... and you get SATAN. Rearrange the letters of the Cardiff City FC manager, 'Neil Warnock'... and you get 'Colin Wanker' 🤔 |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2019 18:28:58 GMT
When I was a young lad, my daddy told me that if I believed in Santa Clause and I was a good lad, I would be rewarded in the future. OTOH, my Sunday School teacher told me that if I believed in Jesus Christ and I was a good lad, I would be rewarded in the future.
We went over this shit months ago.... Your dad knew he was lying to you. Quite a few allegedly religious people are lying about it too, you know. Two things do not have to be identical to be analogous.
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Post by Vegas on Jun 9, 2019 2:11:38 GMT
We went over this shit months ago.... Your dad knew he was lying to you.
Oh yeah?.... Which ones?  Like I said: I'm sure that most faith healers know that they're full of shit... Just pointing out that the motives and intent aren't really the same... Are we suggesting that everybody who tells you that you will be rewarded for good behavior is lying or full of shit? Isn't that his point?.. That it's based a lie? Then.. they're not really analogous.... THE ONE ISN'T A LIE.  - "B-but religious leaders tell me to be good like my daddy did!"
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2019 12:12:56 GMT
Quite a few allegedly religious people are lying about it too, you know.
Oh yeah?.... Which ones? Well for example, there's a whole support group for atheist pastors. It's called The Clergy Project. There are many clergy who have lost their faith but continue as clergy because it's the only profession they know, or because they don't want to lose their family and friends, etc. Indeed. So do many professional creationists, IMO. Right. And I'm pointing out that those who consider santa and jesus analogous don't generally mean that the motivation of those trying to convince you of their existence is a point of comparison. Rodney Farber specifically listed "if I believed I would be rewarded" as the point of comparison. I listed some other points of comparison. The two ARE analogous in those elements, even if they are not necessarily comparable in the way you suggested. No. But some are. The religious may not all be deliberate liars (some obviously are), but they are all selling as true something which, if they're honest, they have no good reason to believe is true. But again, even if we don't take that as the point of comparison, there are points of comparison.
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Post by Vegas on Jun 9, 2019 13:15:48 GMT
@graham Yes.. Some people are liars... some people are charlatans... But: Once again... The point of the OP isn't some "Notice how your boss is like Santa when he says that you could get a promotion if you do good work"... It's an asshole trying to compare Jesus to a known imaginary character to claim that they are the same exact thing. It's not the same thing. You might not be a deliberate WAFFLE, but you are selling, if we're being honest, a shitload of syrup here.  |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 9, 2019 14:08:17 GMT
I’m not a liar just deliberately dishonest.😐
The compliments are getting better!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2019 19:58:20 GMT
@graham Yes.. Some people are liars... some people are charlatans... But: Once again... The point of the OP isn't some "Notice how your boss is like Santa when he says that you could get a promotion if you do good work"... It's an asshole trying to compare Jesus to a known imaginary character to claim that they are the same exact thing. It's not the same thing. You might not be a deliberate WAFFLE, but you are selling, if we're being honest, a shitload of syrup here. Already answered these points, so not really a lot of need to do so again.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Jun 10, 2019 1:41:12 GMT
When I was a young lad, my daddy told me that if I believed in Santa Clause and I was a good lad, I would be rewarded in the future. OTOH, my Sunday School teacher told me that if I believed in Jesus Christ and I was a good lad, I would be rewarded in the future.
The difference lies in the execution of the prophecy. In the case of daddy telling me to be good, daddy had direct control over his self-fulfilling prophecy. He could make it come true. In the case of the Sunday School teacher, she was blowing smoke out of her a$$. How did she know what happens in the future. How would she know. How the f*** could she know. All she knows is what she has been indoctrinated to believe. If you are told a fable often enough, you eventually begin to believe it even if you have no evidence to support the story.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 10, 2019 1:47:25 GMT
When I was a young lad, my daddy told me that if I believed in Santa Clause and I was a good lad, I would be rewarded in the future. OTOH, my Sunday School teacher told me that if I believed in Jesus Christ and I was a good lad, I would be rewarded in the future.
The difference lies in the execution of the prophecy. In the case of daddy telling me to be good, daddy had direct control over his self-fulfilling prophecy. He could make it come true. In the case of the Sunday School teacher, she was blowing smoke out of her a$$. How did she know what happens in the future. How would she know. How the f*** could she know. All she knows is what she has been indoctrinated to believe. If you are told a fable often enough, you eventually begin to believe it even if you have no evidence to support the story. Weak whiny argument. What do you believe that has evidence to support it? You can't even prove you love your parents or that you won't murder someone in the coming years.
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Post by Vegas on Jun 10, 2019 2:34:11 GMT
@graham Yes.. Some people are liars... some people are charlatans... But: Once again... The point of the OP isn't some "Notice how your boss is like Santa when he says that you could get a promotion if you do good work"... It's an asshole trying to compare Jesus to a known imaginary character to claim that they are the same exact thing. It's not the same thing. You might not be a deliberate WAFFLE, but you are selling, if we're being honest, a shitload of syrup here. You didn't answer these points... you excused his assholery with a false narrative.  - "He's just making a comparison with Jesus and Santa because they both have beards." 
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2019 11:29:25 GMT
Already answered these points, so not really a lot of need to do so again. You didn't answer these points... you excused his assholery with a false narrative. - "He's just making a comparison with Jesus and Santa because they both have beards." *shrug* Whatever you need to believe.
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Post by Vegas on Jun 10, 2019 12:28:11 GMT
You didn't answer these points... you excused his assholery with a false narrative. - "He's just making a comparison with Jesus and Santa because they both have beards." *shrug* Whatever you need to believe. Back atcha.
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Post by Vegas on Jun 11, 2019 14:11:02 GMT
The argument was lying to your kid about Santa is the same as teaching your kid about belief which it is not and only a moron would think so. Actually, the argument was: Telling your kids about Santa in order to manipulate their behaviour is the same as telling your kids about God/Jesus in order to manipulate their behaviour. My argument was that the only real difference between these two cases is that in the case of Santa, parents don't really believe what they are saying, but in the case of God/Jesus, parents might believe themselves that they are telling the truth. No... The argument is that lying to your kid about Santa is the same as teaching your kid about beliefs... This is not the first time this topic has been broached. NOBODY DENIES THAT A PROMISING A REWARD OF ANY KIND TO A KID FOR GOOD BEHAVIOR IS A FORM OF MANIPULATING THEM... INCLUDING THE SANTA LIE. It's obvious to the point of not having to be pointed out. The emphasis being made here is that the manipulation (Santa) is a known lie... and the comparison that is being made is that Jesus is, too. ..or, maybe, that since Santa is a known lie it's safe to assume that Jesus is, too. Either way.
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Post by thefleetsin on Jun 11, 2019 18:13:54 GMT
cowering in the conversion therapies coming out your colostomy
when first
the church had had enough,
they
skewered homosexuals
alive.
this was of course,
naturally,
after the priests had had their way with them
sexually.
now shall we jump forward
to the
latest phase of therapies.
where
paid officials are coerced into believing
that all any homosexual
ever could
possibly need
is to see jesus sucking on a side boob
of a virgin known as mary.
all the while
history is never quite as wary
as when
americans feel compelled
to
crank up their own enlightened fears
every time
someone looks a little scary.
sjw 06/11/19 inspired at this very moment in time by that particular sort of swine religion foists onto the world.
from the 'blasphemy series' of poems
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Post by phludowin on Jun 11, 2019 18:53:35 GMT
The emphasis being made here is that the manipulation (Santa) is a known lie... and the comparison that is being made is that Jesus is, too. ..or, maybe, that since Santa is a known lie it's safe to assume that Jesus is, too. Either way. Actually: No. This is what the OP said. When I was a young lad, my daddy told me that if I believed in Santa Clause and I was a good lad, I would be rewarded in the future. OTOH, my Sunday School teacher told me that if I believed in Jesus Christ and I was a good lad, I would be rewarded in the future.
The difference lies in the execution of the prophecy. In the case of daddy telling me to be good, daddy had direct control over his self-fulfilling prophecy. He could make it come true. In the case of the Sunday School teacher, she was blowing smoke out of her a$$. How did she know what happens in the future. How would she know. How the f*** could she know. All she knows is what she has been indoctrinated to believe. If you are told a fable often enough, you eventually begin to believe it even if you have no evidence to support the story. The Santa-telling dad has control over the situation, since he knows Santa is a lie. The Sunday preacher doesn't know if the Jesus narrative is true, but acts as if he knew. I don't know what's worse: Knowingly lying or spreading stories as true without knowing. In other words: Being a liar or a fool. But in the end, it doesn't really matter.
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Post by Vegas on Jun 11, 2019 19:02:11 GMT
The emphasis being made here is that the manipulation (Santa) is a known lie... and the comparison that is being made is that Jesus is, too. ..or, maybe, that since Santa is a known lie it's safe to assume that Jesus is, too. Either way. Actually: No. This is what the OP said. The difference lies in the execution of the prophecy. In the case of daddy telling me to be good, daddy had direct control over his self-fulfilling prophecy. He could make it come true. In the case of the Sunday School teacher, she was blowing smoke out of her a$$. How did she know what happens in the future. How would she know. How the f*** could she know. All she knows is what she has been indoctrinated to believe. If you are told a fable often enough, you eventually begin to believe it even if you have no evidence to support the story. The Santa-telling dad has control over the situation, since he knows Santa is a lie. The Sunday preacher doesn't know if the Jesus narrative is true, but acts as if he knew. I don't know what's worse: Knowingly lying or spreading stories as true without knowing. In other words: Being a liar or a fool. But in the end, it doesn't really matter. You know that you're a fucking moron... right?
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jun 11, 2019 21:28:18 GMT
The emphasis being made here is that the manipulation (Santa) is a known lie... and the comparison that is being made is that Jesus is, too. ..or, maybe, that since Santa is a known lie it's safe to assume that Jesus is, too. Either way. Actually: No. This is what the OP said. The difference lies in the execution of the prophecy. In the case of daddy telling me to be good, daddy had direct control over his self-fulfilling prophecy. He could make it come true. In the case of the Sunday School teacher, she was blowing smoke out of her a$$. How did she know what happens in the future. How would she know. How the f*** could she know. All she knows is what she has been indoctrinated to believe. If you are told a fable often enough, you eventually begin to believe it even if you have no evidence to support the story. The Santa-telling dad has control over the situation, since he knows Santa is a lie. The Sunday preacher doesn't know if the Jesus narrative is true, but acts as if he knew. I don't know what's worse: Knowingly lying or spreading stories as true without knowing. In other words: Being a liar or a fool. But in the end, it doesn't really matter. Well said!
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