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Post by snsurone on Jun 8, 2019 14:02:09 GMT
This is best exemplifies by two films: AN UNMARRIED WOMAN and ALICE DOESN'T LIVE HERE ANYMORE.
In both pictures, the heroines are never completely independent. Sure, they're saddled with annoying kids, but the real point is they both feel that they need men to validate their existences. Mind you, there is nothing wrong with being friends with men, even FWB, but these women never establish identities of their own in the world. They still have a "housewife" mentality, that is, they still need males to guide and steer them.
It was the same with the first season of the TV series ONE DAY AT A TIME, where the leading lady, divorcee Ann Romano, had a BF who was constantly nagging her to marry him. Even her two daughters were caught up in that "housewife" thinking and were pushing her toward marriage. Thank goodness the BF was written out after that first season!
I'm a firm believer in Gloria Steinam's adage: "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle".
I'm too lazy to check it out, but I'll wager that both movies were written by men!
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Post by wmcclain on Jun 8, 2019 14:41:09 GMT
Coming Home (1978), directed by Hal Ashby. When her husband in away in Vietnam, a dutiful Marine wife becomes (mildly) radicalized and liberated and falls in love with a paraplegic veteran. Here the anti-war generation of the 1960s step up and tell a story from their perspective. It was Jane Fonda's project from the beginning, inspired by the story of Ron Kovic, whose book Born on the Fourth of July was later filmed by Oliver Stone. Message films must be made oh-so-carefully. There is no easier way to make a bad film. This one goes right up to the line but I think works in the end, if you can forgive the lecturing tone of some scenes. What it does well:
- It is emotionally gripping, with everyone in pain. We can't help yearning for comfort for all involved.
- It is a worthy peek into the poorly provided VA hospitals (some stories never get old) with real veterans in the cast.
- It shows us an inflexion point in the culture, when the old guard is losing respect and authority, and the previous counterculture becomes dominant.
- Lastly, how I saw it in the theater: the suffering of the vets, the tragedy of their lives, makes one appreciate youth and wholeness and passion while you have it. Use the time well. This lesson sank deep into the souls of women I knew in the audience, looking to change their lives.
Today, about half the dialogue sounds like clunky anti-establishment hectoring, particularly the "meaningful" bits. The little impromptu personal interactions and funny give-and-take are better. The characters and situations are set up with a clear demarcation: The Old Guard: Marines and anyone fighting the war, Bruce Dern (previously a psycho-killer, now a soldier, isn't that a bit blunt?), snotty officer's wives, bad sex, unappealing squares who try to pick up women in bars, FBI agents who spy on desperate lovers. The Newly Liberated: move to the beach, buy a sports car, new hairstyle, volunteer at the vet hospital, fall in love and have your first orgasm. Perhaps that sounds too critical, but I can't help seeing the ideological design. I do like the film and its honest emotional appeal. As I said for The Best Years of Our Lives (1946), the last chapter of any war story is "coming home". This is one of the good ones for Vietnam. Great performances all around. The leads are very fine. Bruce Dern is not a likable character in our story -- the husband as "other man" -- but his pain and confusion are moving. Jon Voight is outstanding as a disabled vet in Hell who cleans up and gets back on track through -- as always -- the love of a good woman. In the end he becomes a mentor to others and shows a generosity of spirit that is above and beyond. Casting Fonda as the military wife was pretty bold: she was perhaps the most hated woman in America because of her Vietnam activities. She does a bit of nudity but also has a body double. In the popular game of "When did movies start doing...?" I now wonder when did women start getting oral sex in film? I'll have to pay more attention, but I think this was an early prominent example. That first orgasm, always a good one. (A cruel person could do a mashup of that scene with the orgasmatron bit in Barbarella (1968)). Rich 1960s soundtrack. I always think of a certain scene when I hear "Sympathy for the Devil". If you've seen it you know why. Quietly, in the background, during the big love scene: Neil Young's "Expecting to Fly". Available on Blu-ray with an edited commentary track featuring Jon Voight, Bruce Dern, and cinematographer Haskell Wexler. It was recorded in 2001 just after 9/11. 
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Post by nausea on Jun 8, 2019 14:42:11 GMT
We dont want to support them. Racial isnt tjust the colur of ur skin now.
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Post by marshamae on Jun 8, 2019 15:04:42 GMT
I think you assessment of Unmarried woman and Alice Doesn’t live here anymore is rather harsh. The women’s movement really took off in the late 1960’s . These films were made in the mid to late 1970’s. It’s clear they were just finding the characters and voices for women stepping out of marriage. It would be 40 more years before the need for women directors and writers became widely accepted and economically feasible.
I don’t know if you were an adult in TGE 50’s and 60’s . These first little steps away from kinder kitchen kuche were terrifying, filled with self doubt and plenty of push back from exes, families and society. They didn’t want us on the loose. In school, in the workplace except in nailed down defined roles as handmaiden, women were harassed , ignored ,pushed back, humiliated and worse. We had no idea what a woman in authority should sound like, what it meant to be liberated.
I honor these and other films for showing those baby steps. I’ll add another one, Reds. Dianne Keaton’s performance was not pleasant. It was shrill, demanding , unreasonable , inconsistant and a perfect representation of women struggling to be themselves. We did not know what we wanted, did not know what we wanted men to be, did not know how to articulate it if we did know.
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Post by Prime etc. on Jun 8, 2019 17:44:40 GMT
The idea that women were discouraged from being depicted in assertive independent roles before big Hollywood and feminist propaganda came along is such BS.
In SON OF KONG Helen Mack's character was an independent as they get--that was 1933. DW Griffith's Mountain Girl in 1916. There were several European films in the 60s that had "no big deal" independent women.
Many of Walt Disney's films had strong women characters--in several cases they were the driving force in the story--the mother and Glynis Johns in ROB ROY-THE HIGHLAND ROGUE.
I watched a mid 60s low budget sci-fi film CYBORG 2087 starring Michael Rennie and not only do they have a woman scientist--but she's blonde! I do not recall any dialogue that commented on it either.
It was insincere corporate Hollywood that politicized gender just as it did with race and religion. Cecil DeMille was probably big Hollywood's biggest filmmaker of the era and he tended to depict women like children. Why did Warner Bros. change the ending to the 1895 novel Trilby when they made Svengali in 1931? In the book, the woman comes out of her hypnosis and declares her independence. In the movie-she remains in a trance (with God's help it seems!).
A related question is--how does Hollywood depict mothers? Does it demonize them? That would be interesting to explore as a related subject.
Anyway my favorite is RAPE SQUAD aka ACT OF VENGEANCE 1974 starring Jo Ann Harris who deserved Sally Field's career.
THE GIANT SPIDER INVASION has this exchange:
Dr. J.R. Vance: Hi, I'm Dr. J.R. Vance from N.A.S.A.
Dr. Jenny Langer: Oh, I'm so glad you're here, Doctor. I'm Jenny Langer.
Dr. J.R. Vance: Nice to meet you. I have an appointment with your father.
Dr. Jenny Langer: Oh, no no. He passed away in 1962
Dr. J.R. Vance: Oh, I'm so sorry, then the appointment must be with your husband.
Dr. Jenny Langer: I'm not married.
Dr. J.R. Vance: I'm NOT sorry. Then it's probably with your brother.
Dr. Jenny Langer: No, my brother's an interior decorator in Oshkosh. You see, Doctor... Vance. I'm afraid your appointment is with me. I'm DOCTOR Jenny Langer.
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Post by teleadm on Jun 8, 2019 19:00:54 GMT
On this subject I would like to ad Norma Rae 1979
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Post by Archelaus on Jun 8, 2019 21:00:17 GMT
Jeanne Dielman, 23 quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles (1975) 3 Women (1977)
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Post by snsurone on Jun 8, 2019 23:55:06 GMT
I admit there were strong, intelligent women in pre-Code Hollywood. And there were also men determined to "cut them down to size".
In the sci-fi classic THE BEAST FROM 20,000 FATHOMS, there was an intelligent woman among the scientists, and as soon as he laid eyes on her, the leading man wanted to get into her pants! Watch that intro scene and you'll see what I mean.
But we're digressing from the point of the OP, which is that women don't need men to be happy and successful, which the two movies I cited fail to address. I just wish more women realized that today. One of my guilty pleasures is reading advice columnists, and even now, there are so many women boohooing because they don't have boy friends/husbands.
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Post by marshamae on Jun 9, 2019 0:54:30 GMT
Some women do need men in their lives to be happy. That doesn’t mean they want overseers, task masters, controllers. There’s absolutely nothing antithetical to liberation in desiring seeking and nurturing a loving relationship with a male partner. What’s crazy is going into dependency rage or depression when you don’t have one. We see that much more clearly now than we did in the 70’s. We are much more prepared to take care of ourselves and expect others to do the same.
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Post by cynthiagreen on Jun 10, 2019 11:34:53 GMT
LOOKING FOR MR GOODBAR and THE STEPFORD WIVES are two at the darker end of the range.
SUCH GOOD FRIENDS has its heroine discovering her comatose husband has been unfaithful... a lot ........and is very funny. Dyan Cannon's keeper.
On TV we got LOOSE CHANGE and THE WOMEN'S ROOM (1980 actually)
Anyone recommend STAND UP AND BE COUNTED? Curious.
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Post by snsurone on Dec 28, 2019 2:42:15 GMT
Some women do need men in their lives to be happy. That doesn’t mean they want overseers, task masters, controllers. There’s absolutely nothing antithetical to liberation in desiring seeking and nurturing a loving relationship with a male partner. What’s crazy is going into dependency rage or depression when you don’t have one. We see that much more clearly now than we did in the 70’s. We are much more prepared to take care of ourselves and expect others to do the same. I do agree with your assessment, marshamae. Arguably, the best example is Marge Gunderson in FARGO. She was married and pregnant, but she was still able to spearhead the investigation into a major crime and its consequences. I only hope that she wasn't relegated to full-time diaper duty at the end, after the baby was born.
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Post by marianne48 on Jan 9, 2020 1:23:33 GMT
When I see the term "Women's Lib," the first thing that comes to mind are those old TV commercials for Virginia Slims cigarettes, which celebrated the advancement of women with the announcement, "You've come a long way, baby....You've got your own cigarette now, baby!!" I remember some TV clip show from the late '70s or early '80s which featured a montage of scenes from TV commercials of the past, beginning with a parade of repressed housewives going nuts over cleaning and scrubbing and "ring-around-the-collar" and ending with that Virginia Slims jingle, which caused the TV audience to break out into (supposedly) spontaneous applause, as if to suggest that cigarette addiction, lung disease, etc. was just the kind of victory women wanted. The commercials were a perfect example of the pandering engaged in by advertising, TV and movies of the time.
The "women's lib" theatrical movies of the 1970s were okay for their times, but the standard of excellence for the subject was the TV series The Mary Tyler Moore Show. It showed, for the first time, a woman who was single by choice and not desperate to latch onto a man to meet cultural standards; the show followed her as she evolved from a scared single "girl" on her own for the first time into a confident career woman who was largely satisfied with her life as it was. Unlike a lot of shows that followed (even decades later), she was allowed to be attractive and have healthy relationships with men, without becoming sex-obsessed, bitter, "mannish," or anxious about her biological clock and fretting about whether she missed out on something because she didn't follow the traditional wife-mother path. The show had a lot more input from female writers than most other shows, which was undoubtedly a major factor in its being a show that so many female viewers could relate to--and despite its dated fashions and decor, it's still a timely show.
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Post by Isapop on Jan 9, 2020 1:35:02 GMT
The idea that women were discouraged from being depicted in assertive independent roles before big Hollywood and feminist propaganda came along is such BS. In SON OF KONG Helen Mack's character was an independent as they get--that was 1933. As a matter of fact, she's so unconventional that it's she who proposes to Robert Armstrong!
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Post by Prime etc. on Jan 9, 2020 1:43:12 GMT
As a matter of fact, she's so unconventional that it's she who proposes to Robert Armstrong! Ha really? I missed that. I remember she released all the animals in the cages during the fire and the basic story about Carl Denham was surprisingly profound with interesting dialogue between them. Given that it was rushed into production months after King Kong an impressive effort I thought.
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Post by Isapop on Jan 9, 2020 1:56:21 GMT
As a matter of fact, she's so unconventional that it's she who proposes to Robert Armstrong! Ha really? I missed that.
At the end, when Denham says, "We'll split the treasure four ways". Helen: Couldn't we just split it three ways? Denham: How do you mean? Helen: One third to the skipper, one third to Charlie, and one third...to us?
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Post by snsurone on Jan 9, 2020 2:28:16 GMT
Funny that you should mention THE MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW, Marianne. While I agree with what you said, it must be remembered that Mary Richards didn't hunker over men; she didn't have to--THEY hunkered over HER! In the early seasons, I was disgusted when a man only had to look at her and WHAM! Head over heels in love! And yet it was the actual man-hungry neighbor Rhoda who was the funniest female character on the program, just like man-hungry Sally on THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW. BTW, early in the last decade there was a TV movie called MARY AND RHODA, where the two women reunite after many years apart. Here, Rhoda was divorced a second time, and Mary was the widow of a congressman, and they both were mothers of college-age daughters. IMO, this was the very antithesis of the main theme of THE MTM SHOW! But it came about when TV ran male-dominated sitcoms like HOME IMPROVEMENT and EVERYONE LOVES RAYMOND, where the female characters regressed to the housewife/mother roles. I don't watch current TV shows, but at least the dramas do depict strong, independent women.
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Post by marianne48 on Jan 9, 2020 3:05:01 GMT
That was the joke--that every man Mary met threw themselves at her (there was even that weird episode in which Lou, Ted and Murray each fantasized about being married to Mary). It ridicules the notion that whenever a woman receives attention from a man--any man--she's supposed to be pleased and flattered (and SMILE, dammit!) as if she always wants it. Mary was uncomfortable with, and sometimes repulsed by, some of this attention, which would come as a surprise to a lot of these men and puzzle a lot of women who would expect her to accept any and every male who came along.
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Post by bravomailer on Jan 9, 2020 5:54:59 GMT
The Exorcist – single mother breaks with patriarchal doctors and finds help for her ailing daughter.
Five Easy Pieces – expecting mother realizes her boyfriend is completely unreliable.
Bonnie and Clyde – Dallas waitress chooses a new career in banking. (Sorry, that's a 60s movie)
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Post by snsurone on Jan 19, 2020 21:03:35 GMT
We dont want to support them. Racial isnt tjust the colur of ur skin now. What have you been drinking? Or smoking? Or injecting? 
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